Fixing hole in side of block
- Thread starter joesmith123
- Start date
Joe
* Are you sure the water jacket is intact? Wasn't cracked or broken when the main hole was made?
* A propane torch by itself won't be adequate to braze that, but it might be useful to maintain the preheat and slow the cool-down. I'm thinking you're going to need help with this.
* I'd use a piece of steel, 1/8" or so thick. Cup it if necessary. Grind out the hole to get rid of any spider cracks and sharp corners. Fit the patch to the hole as closely as possible before brazing.
* Are you sure the water jacket is intact? Wasn't cracked or broken when the main hole was made?
* A propane torch by itself won't be adequate to braze that, but it might be useful to maintain the preheat and slow the cool-down. I'm thinking you're going to need help with this.
* I'd use a piece of steel, 1/8" or so thick. Cup it if necessary. Grind out the hole to get rid of any spider cracks and sharp corners. Fit the patch to the hole as closely as possible before brazing.
fried1765
Well-known member
Equipment
Kubota L48 TLB, Ford 1920 FEL, Ford 8N, SCAG Liberty Z, Gravely Pro.
Joe, having never brazed before,...... this fix will certainly be a stretch.
yes I am listening - grind the hole edges and get rid of the sharp corners, get 1/8 inch steel, cut it the size of the hole, hammer on it and get it the general shape of the area it is covering. Then I am getting a nickel rod and I will melt the rod on the edges of the steel patch and fuse it to the block
Thank you for answering my question. Ok, I need to figure out the brazing gas. How about that yellow tank, I think it is called MAPP gas. Maybe that gas is good enough for brazing?
I woke up too late from the nap after removing the crankcase and whatever else I was doing earlier. Now is a good time to watch videos and find a clip that I can emulate of someone brazing a cast iron block, and see how they do it, and try to get better understanding
Here is a good video, description of the video:
"Brazing 100 year old cast iron with an oxy acetylene torch, Harris 600 flux and low fuming bronze."
Ok from my understanding: he is welding on a cast iron patch, he is using oxy ace torch, he put the "harris 600 flux" on the areas where he wanted the filler to be, and the rod he is using is "low fuming bronze" ? (I am asking not stating)
I know this will be harder to do, but if done properly, I can grind it down and paint it and give it a much more "factory" look, and it seems to be very permanent...
I'll be fixing to practice for a day on another cast iron object, see if I can seal it up without damaging the block, then once I am confident, do the weld on the actual engine block...
Ok here is someone fixing a cracked corner of a john deere block
Right hand is holding the oxy ace torch, left hand has some sort of rod, and he is dipping it in something
I am guessing: the rod I think he said is "brass", and the dip in the jar is flux...
Look at how good the weld is when he hits it with hard object
And he did say that the rod is bronze, not brass, and he did say the dip that he used
He is also referring to what he did as brazing, he is not melting the cast iron block, but rather heating up the bronze enough to fill the gap and hold tight onto the cast iron...
Wow, look at how good he got it looking at this point
"Brazo flux made by union car company" (the dip he is using), rods: "oxweld 25-m flux coated bronze welding rod" (This is what I heard him say he is using)
Summary: He is welding a cast iron piece that broke off using bronze rod dipping it in flux
maybe I should use cast iron for the patch material...
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You don't say? Well true to his motto he must have "figured that out" and is doing better in that department than the brain trust.
While I agree duck tape and bondo is good enough for patching hole, I think you make the JB Weld fix sound easier than it actually is. It's gonna require time and patience honing with a rat tail file then polishing with graduated grits of wet or dry sandpaper. All and all doable but it will require a heap of "figuring out" to make that pile of parts into a single intact unit.
With a bearing scraper you could fit the bearing to the crank as long ad you dont turn it. Plywood and drywall screws could make that block new. Or plexiglass so you could see the rod climb out again as it happens. Or check the dirt to oil ratio.
I bought a 351w block from a junkyard once. Kinda hard to find the 1969 blocks but I found one and gave em $10 fer it. Got it home, standard bore and all the caps were fine. However, at some point in it's life it suffered a connecting rod failure and like most 351 (and 302) blocks, when a connecting rod becomes disconnected, it usually takes out the pan rail. Had a chunk missing out of it about 3" long and about 2" deep. Wish I had pics but you get the idea. No way that was gonna ever seal. well I had $10 in it, so why not try brazing it up? I've done some welding in the past, so I wasn't skeer'd to try it, and into it for "that" price, I had $10 + brazing rods + gas to lose. Big deal. Might learn something. Got it all CLEAN, ground away the grease and such so a 2x3" spot became about 2 1/2 by 3 1/2". I just preheated everything as best I could with a rosebud and then went to brazing up the notch, little by little. I'd run a "bead" (if you call it that", let it cool a little, run another, repeat over and over until it was above the rest of the pan rail. Then ground it down flat with the rest of the pan rail, drilled/tapped a pan bolt hole, and let it air cool-in 112 degree air temp. It looked good, almost factory once it was painted. Sent it off and had it line honed, cylinders bored, decked to 9.465" and built a 414 out of it. 4.060 bore, 4.000 stroke 6.300 SBC rods and shelf-stock 331" SBF pistons. Came out at +.003 deck (above the deck) like I wanted it and 13.22:1 compression. Ran methanol and beat the ever living snot out of it for over a decade, never a failure-EVER. I take that back, dad was driving the car and somehow managed to forget to put oil back in it, spun a few rod bearings. He put a new crank in it and it was golden. Made about 700hp N/A (never dyno'd, just based that on ET vs weight).
Sold the car with that engine in it last year, still running perfectly. One of the better running engines I've ever screwed together, for what it was. An old truck engine bought from a scrap yard.
I got the idea from a friend who did a lot of 440 Mopar stuff. He blew a LOT of those old things up, I mean for a while it was one block per weekend. One block had a hole in the bottom of it about the size of a can of tuna. He was (obviously) getting low on blocks so he used a cast iron skillet that he stole from his wife, cut it to size, and brazed it in. That block ran the rest of his life-literally. Probably another 10 years or so, he died in 2016 and now his son has the car and sometimes races it as well. Makes maybe 600hp, mild but it doesn't leak a drop and it has had no issues. In fact, his son asked me the other day at the races if I wanted to buy that old car. I might do it. 1956 Ford Fairlane
point being, dont be afraid to try things. Worst case you have to buy a block, which you have to do anyway. If it works, you don't have to buy a block. But brazing cast iron does work so long as it's not in an area that will see a ton of stress, such as around a head bolt hole or main web, etc.
Sold the car with that engine in it last year, still running perfectly. One of the better running engines I've ever screwed together, for what it was. An old truck engine bought from a scrap yard.
I got the idea from a friend who did a lot of 440 Mopar stuff. He blew a LOT of those old things up, I mean for a while it was one block per weekend. One block had a hole in the bottom of it about the size of a can of tuna. He was (obviously) getting low on blocks so he used a cast iron skillet that he stole from his wife, cut it to size, and brazed it in. That block ran the rest of his life-literally. Probably another 10 years or so, he died in 2016 and now his son has the car and sometimes races it as well. Makes maybe 600hp, mild but it doesn't leak a drop and it has had no issues. In fact, his son asked me the other day at the races if I wanted to buy that old car. I might do it. 1956 Ford Fairlane
point being, dont be afraid to try things. Worst case you have to buy a block, which you have to do anyway. If it works, you don't have to buy a block. But brazing cast iron does work so long as it's not in an area that will see a ton of stress, such as around a head bolt hole or main web, etc.
Holy mackerel King Fish THAT'S nothing short of genius !
Some of these guys never cease to amaze me with their knowledge and willingness in sharing with folks they never met but this window thingy is on a different level. Granted RW scissors' endeavors could be said to be for the ,,,,,aheem,,,,shall we say "adventurous" or some might say self destructive but non the less valuable contributions for those into such.
Plexiglass window in crankcase. Stop for a minute and consider had GM included that idea on Corvairs and Vegas, just to name a couple. Take the 6.0L Ford diesel,once root problems were realized the fixes were inexpensive and permanent. In retrospect had engineers been able to look inside 6.0L the problems would be obvious right away and saved FMC billions $$$$$$. If John Force's pit was able to peer inside motors,think of the game changing decisions the pit could make.
Oleracer you best get in line at patent office before some scallywag
steals this idea.What is wrong with Corvairs? They only leak oil to mark their parking spaces.Holy mackerel King Fish THAT'S nothing short of genius !
Some of these guys never cease to amaze me with their knowledge and willingness in sharing with folks they never met but this window thingy is on a different level. Granted RW scissors' endeavors could be said to be for the ,,,,,aheem,,,,shall we say "adventurous" or some might say self destructive but non the less valuable contributions for those into such.
Plexiglass window in crankcase. Stop for a minute and consider had GM included that idea on Corvairs and Vegas, just to name a couple. Take the 6.0L Ford diesel,once root problems were realized the fixes were inexpensive and permanent. In retrospect had engineers been able to look inside 6.0L the problems would be obvious right away and saved FMC billions $$$$$$. If John Force's pit was able to peer inside motors,think of the game changing decisions the pit could make.
Oleracer you best get in line at patent office before some scallywag
fried1765
Well-known member
Equipment
Kubota L48 TLB, Ford 1920 FEL, Ford 8N, SCAG Liberty Z, Gravely Pro.
Corvairs are reported to be: "Unsafe at any speed"!
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Hit the block with abrasives, first cleaning
Before cleaning: stuck on gaskets all over, lower ports clogged, head has gluey substances/gunk buildup...
Stuck on gaskets, gunk buildup, etc
Used a brush and applied diesel to the engine block
container of diesel: dip whatever abrasive being used in here frequently: wire wheels, nylon strip disc, window scraper
First wash: still need to hit it real hard at the bottom to get rid of the buildup, go through all the ports with a pik and clear them
top of block looking smooth, got rid of the stuck gasket on this side, still gonna get hit again with abrasives
This side looking cleaner, still has some stuck on gasket material, hit it again with nylon stripping disc
The hole in the block, still preparing the brazing repair
Now: hit the gears/pistons/camshaft/clutch/bell housing/the bolts with wire wheels and other abrasives, and go through the engine again with abrasives, hit the cylinders with wire wheel, get rid of all stuck on gasket material
Before cleaning: stuck on gaskets all over, lower ports clogged, head has gluey substances/gunk buildup...
Stuck on gaskets, gunk buildup, etc
Used a brush and applied diesel to the engine block
container of diesel: dip whatever abrasive being used in here frequently: wire wheels, nylon strip disc, window scraper
First wash: still need to hit it real hard at the bottom to get rid of the buildup, go through all the ports with a pik and clear them
top of block looking smooth, got rid of the stuck gasket on this side, still gonna get hit again with abrasives
This side looking cleaner, still has some stuck on gasket material, hit it again with nylon stripping disc
The hole in the block, still preparing the brazing repair
Now: hit the gears/pistons/camshaft/clutch/bell housing/the bolts with wire wheels and other abrasives, and go through the engine again with abrasives, hit the cylinders with wire wheel, get rid of all stuck on gasket material
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That information is from a man who never had a drivers license his whole life. Would you trust anyone who claims to be an expert and writes a book without any first hand knowledge of the subject that he is writing about? Also, lets not forget that the Department of Transportation exonerated the Corvair after an extensive investigation and declared that it was as safe as any other car of its era.
Today in Corvair history...(July 20, 1972) - We celebrate the 52nd Anniversary date when the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) exonerated the Corvair (thus proving Ralph Nader wrong) when it published its report findings after a two year investigation of the 1960-63 Corvair. The report concluded: "The handling and stability performance of the 1960-1963 Corvair does not result in an abnormal potential for loss of control or rollover and it is at least as good as the performance of some contemporary vehicles, both foreign and domestic." Picture was taken in front of Ralph Nader's American Museum of Tort Law.
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Considering what you have to work with, I would say you are doing great. I hope this turns out well.
GreensvilleJay
Well-known member
Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
A++ for effort !
I'd kinda like to see the hole filled with glass, be neat to see the innards going round and round.
I'd kinda like to see the hole filled with glass, be neat to see the innards going round and round.
Hit everything with wire wheel and nylon stripping pad
Before cleaning
Spent lots of time stripping away stuck on gasket on crank casing using nylon disc on plug in drill
Piston #1 before cleaning
Holding piston down using clamp, hitting piston hard with 6 inch soft wire wheel, diesel soaked
Gear case before cleaning
Scraping stuck on gasket with window scraper, hitting it with nylon disc, hitting overall area with brass front facing wire wheel
Tilted block 90 degrees, time to hit oil pan gasket with window scraper/nylon disc
After abrasives
Before cleaning
Spent lots of time stripping away stuck on gasket on crank casing using nylon disc on plug in drill
Piston #1 before cleaning
Holding piston down using clamp, hitting piston hard with 6 inch soft wire wheel, diesel soaked
Gear case before cleaning
Scraping stuck on gasket with window scraper, hitting it with nylon disc, hitting overall area with brass front facing wire wheel
Tilted block 90 degrees, time to hit oil pan gasket with window scraper/nylon disc
After abrasives
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More cleaning
Gear case cleaned
Backside clean
Piston #1, does have pitting on its head
Piston #3
Camshaft cleaned and other gears/parts
Clutch cleaned
Flywheel cleaned
Scrub area with diesel
Block looking cleaner
Cleaned this area
Next steps: Fill up oxy ace tanks, get bronze rods, get the flux, figure out exact material that will be used for the patch, cut the patch a nice even shape and grind the block into that same shape
Ideas of what material I have laying around that can be used for the patch: bx1500 bucket broke and there is a piece laying around. Maybe cut 3.5'' by 3.5'' of that steel, I think it is 1/4 steel. That might be better to use than the cast iron since it will be malleable, and I would not be able to shape the cast iron...
Gear case cleaned
Backside clean
Piston #1, does have pitting on its head
Piston #3
Camshaft cleaned and other gears/parts
Clutch cleaned
Flywheel cleaned
Scrub area with diesel
Block looking cleaner
Cleaned this area
Next steps: Fill up oxy ace tanks, get bronze rods, get the flux, figure out exact material that will be used for the patch, cut the patch a nice even shape and grind the block into that same shape
Ideas of what material I have laying around that can be used for the patch: bx1500 bucket broke and there is a piece laying around. Maybe cut 3.5'' by 3.5'' of that steel, I think it is 1/4 steel. That might be better to use than the cast iron since it will be malleable, and I would not be able to shape the cast iron...
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