Fixing hole in side of block

[Runs With Scissors]

Update: Dropped off the block 10 days ago at the machine shop, they still have not touched it

I drove 1 hour away from the city in hope of getting a machine shop that has time for me, nope

Now: I need to drive 2 hours to go get the untouched block, what a waste

Please yall talk to me about this:

What would it take for me to DIY this properly?

I do remember wolfman leaving a link for a DIY honing kit but he said it would be best to have machine shop do it perfectly

How about those huge standing drill presses, where I put the block stationary, then come down with the proper 82 mm boring bit attached to it, and it perfectly grinds away at the liner?

That is the machine that they had at their shop, I will try to remember to take a picture of it when I get there

I feel like our money is so worthless, that no matter what I pay, I cannot get anyone to do anything for me since there is no point on their end

How many minutes of labor is it to hone 2 liners if you have the machine?

I was fixing to pay $200 for what I think is 1/2 hour of labor, that is $400/hour, how is that not enough?

Just let me know what it will take to DIY this properly

One machine shop suggested go to harbor freight and they might have the machine/tool

Sounds "par for the course" in todays world.

My neighbor, who is a "small time" builder (houses) just had their entire driveway replaced.

She has/had been waiting 18 months for them and she had to "keep reminding" them until they got tired of her calling.

The reason...... relatively speaking....it's a "peanuts job" for them. She said that they only came out as a "favor" because she has dealt with them in the past.

Like me and you, she is a basically "a nobody" and there isn't much money in working for "nobody's"

It's simple economics 101.

My SIL has his own business and he said something like "I won't even get out of bed for a job that is less than 5K."

His reasoning/claim is that by the time he pays his employees to get the equipment towed out to the job, then set up, then add the cost of insurance, equipment maintenance, permits, fuel, disposal fees, rain delay days...etc.... etc.............When you add it all up, a job thats less than 5K is a loss.

Your "1/2 hour" job estimate is probably a off by a "wee bit" too.

I wish I could advise you on "honing" but I have never done it.

Good luck.

 

[joesmith123]

Your "1/2 hour" job estimate is probably a off by a "wee bit" too.

What is the estimated time it would take to hone 2 liners that are already installed?

I read your entire response and agree completely and understand that I am a nobody

My rebuttal:

There are times in my job where I make $10 an hour and STILL do the job because:

It is my job to do the job. Simple as that.

So far in time wasted searching for a machine shop that would even answer their phones and leaving tons of voicemails, repeating the entire narrative, reached out to 30 machine shops, and the 4 hours of driving that I just did for nothing, it would amount to:

5 hours calling and messaging and searching, 4 hours driving the engine block with nothing to it, the fuel to take it there and back: 9 hours wasted energy, $40 in fuel

 

[fried1765]

Update: Dropped off the block 10 days ago at the machine shop, they still have not touched it

I drove 1 hour away from the city in hope of getting a machine shop that has time for me, nope

Now: I need to drive 2 hours to go get the untouched block, what a waste

Please yall talk to me about this:

What would it take for me to DIY this properly?

I do remember wolfman leaving a link for a DIY honing kit but he said it would be best to have machine shop do it perfectly

How about those huge standing drill presses, where I put the block stationary, then come down with the proper 82 mm boring bit attached to it, and it perfectly grinds away at the liner?

That is the machine that they had at their shop, I will try to remember to take a picture of it when I get there

I feel like our money is so worthless, that no matter what I pay, I cannot get anyone to do anything for me since there is no point on their end

How many minutes of labor is it to hone 2 liners if you have the machine?

I was fixing to pay $200 for what I think is 1/2 hour of labor, that is $400/hour, how is that not enough?

Just let me know what it will take to DIY this properly

One machine shop suggested go to harbor freight and they might have the machine/tool

Stick with your 2 hour rural machine shop!
They likely have other work with a higher priority.
If you insist on DIY, you will wind up with something less than a quality repair.

 

[Runs With Scissors]

What is the estimated time it would take to hone 2 liners that are already installed?

I don't know about the machine shop business, but in automotive it was 1 hour minimum.

Just sending an employee out to look for, then go get a pallet jack, then setting up the "jig", then actually honing, then disassembling, then putting it back would be an hour minimum, and with some of the slacker employees these days, more than likely 2.

I suppose that if i was the owner of a machine shop and I had multiple jobs staring me in the face, and one was a guy with 200 bucks, that I have never seen before (and probably will never see again.)

And the other was "Big Daddy Don Garletts" $15,000 engine job and he drops 40K a year in my shop, the choice would be simple.

I suspect you are in a similar situation.



BTW, I was not trying to put you down or anything, I was just "killing time" waiting for a Dr.s appointment.....talk about waiting around for nothing......

 

[joesmith123]

Stick with your 2 hour rural machine shop!

Yes, I definitely considered this, but there is ONLY ONE GUY amongst 100s of blocks that need something, he even said that many blocks there have been waiting for months

I even offered: Please let me use your machine to do it and I will pay you

His response: Lawyers/insurance does not allow that

Plan for now: look into that drill machine (I'll attach a picture)

How about: Get one of these drill presses, attach the part that yall instruct me to get, and then I perfectly and fully centered: hit the block with the press, honing away at the new liner, getting to the 82 millimeter spec?

I was so upset about this, that I considered fully giving up on the entire plan and both engines

While I figure out the honing of the good block, I might even consider:

Refocusing my energy on the engine with the hole in it. Take that engine fully apart, put all new bearings in that engine, have yall teach me how to weld using the acetylene torch (I just need to fill the bottles), weld the patch on that engine with the hole in it, get that engine running while I figure out the honing of the liners on the current engine build

The only issue: The engine with the hole in it, I intentionally did not disassemble it further because I need to see how the gears are installed and did not want to touch them, I already used that engine to make sure that I oriented the pistons and crankshaft properly

I dont know which way to go at this moment, but what I am considering:

Take all the good parts that were going to use on the engine without the hole in it, and use those on the engine WITH the hole in it. The only expenses it would need: gaskets, the press for pushing in those new wrist bushings on the connecting rods, cost of filling up the torch tanks, learning how to weld, and the patch that would be used

Regardless, it is going to be a long journey of learning etc, it’ll get figured out

 

[DustyRusty]

Honing the cylinders is only part of the work. The rest of the work is that the entire block needs to be hot soapy water washed and rinsed to get the "fines" out of the microscopic grooves in the sides of the liners. If you don't remove these "fines" than the rings will wear prematurely and your engine rebuild will be junk. Around here machine shop work starts at $150 per hour, and they will not tell you how long the job is going to take because every job is different. If something goes wrong with your installation of the liners, who is going to be responsible? Your or the machine shop? Do you bring your own eggs to the restaurant to have them cooked? Had you brought the liners with the block for them to install, then there would be no problem with them honing them to size. Most likely they might need to use a variety of sizes of stones to get the final finish or XX microns. I doubt that you will get the proper size and finish using a drill press, no matter how hard you try. It just isn't in the cards to be able to do a accurate cut by hand moving the parts that do the polishing.
There is a lot more to honing a cylinder than just slapping it onto the deck and starting work. It needs to be leveled, indexed, and measured multiple times to get it perfect. There is no "it is close enough" to a machinist. They live by a code of being exact this time every time.

 

[joesmith123]

I suppose that if i was the owner of a machine shop and I had multiple jobs staring me in the face, and one was a guy with 200 bucks, that I have never seen before (and probably will never see again.)

And the other was "Big Daddy Don Garletts" $15,000 engine job and he drops 40K a year in my shop, the choice would be simple.

According to this logic which I agree with:

No machine shop in the country will do this job because:

They will always have a 15K job that they need to put their energy to, and will NEVER have the time or energy to take on a $200 job

BTW, I was not trying to put you down or anything, I was just "killing time" waiting for a Dr.s appointment.....talk about waiting around for nothing......

You are not putting me down, you are helping me stop wasting my time

Wasting my time is the biggest killer of my motivation/hope/everything

 

[joesmith123]

Honing the cylinders is only part of the work. The rest of the work is that the entire block needs to be hot soapy water washed and rinsed to get the "fines" out of the microscopic grooves in the sides of the liners. If you don't remove these "fines" than the rings will wear prematurely and your engine rebuild will be junk. Around here machine shop work starts at $150 per hour, and they will not tell you how long the job is going to take because every job is different. If something goes wrong with your installation of the liners, who is going to be responsible? Your or the machine shop? Do you bring your own eggs to the restaurant to have them cooked? Had you brought the liners with the block for them to install, then there would be no problem with them honing them to size. Most likely they might need to use a variety of sizes of stones to get the final finish or XX microns. I doubt that you will get the proper size and finish using a drill press, no matter how hard you try. It just isn't in the cards to be able to do a accurate cut by hand moving the parts that do the polishing.
There is a lot more to honing a cylinder than just slapping it onto the deck and starting work. It needs to be leveled, indexed, and measured multiple times to get it perfect. There is no "it is close enough" to a machinist. They live by a code of being exact this time every time.

I am with you and listening. One guy when I was calling the 30 plus machine shops said,

"You can get the setup at harbor freight and do it yourself"

I need to watch videos of how people hone cylinders, to get a better understanding of the process

Maybe there are good ways to do it perfectly

I am not doing DIY on the side of the road, I am talking about getting a proper setup that hold the block and do precision that would make it perfectly spec, and I would measure it using the proper tools

I know it will be expensive, but what choice do we have if all machine shops will not do $200 jobs for a nobody, right?

There are a few different options: Get all the machines and do it myself, save up more money, and offer $400 to hone two cylinders and not wait multiple months

Or go further into poorer areas, make an appointment where I spend a whole day driving it there, pay a premium to do it the day I am there waiting, drive all the way back

It would be 8 hours of driving round trip

My point: i'll do whatever to get them honed, and who cares how long it will take

 

[joesmith123]

In this clip is someone honing a cylinder, what he is using: honer on a drill, different stone sizes, and a measuring tool

I will fix to try this method, I know it will not be perfect, but worth a shot

At this point, I am just experimenting with this block to learn what works and what doesn't, I know yall said machine shop is the recommended route

 

[DustyRusty]

He is honing a cylinder that has already been bored to size, and the hone is just removing the glaze on the cylinder walls so the new rings will seat properly in the block. Did you notice the gray grit on his hands. That is the reason that a block needs to be washed with hot soapy water, rinsed and dried. Doesn't matter if it is an engine cylinder or a brake cylinder. The procedure is all the same.

 

[joesmith123]

He is honing a cylinder that has already been bored to size, and the hone is just removing the glaze on the cylinder walls so the new rings will seat properly in the block. Did you notice the gray grit on his hands. That is the reason that a block needs to be washed with hot soapy water, rinsed and dried. Doesn't matter if it is an engine cylinder or a brake cylinder. The procedure is all the same.

I see, I should be searching for:

How to bore a cylinder, not how to hone a cylinder

Ok finally found a clip of a cylinder BORE not hone

Zero chance they have that tool at harbor freight, lol

I see now, there is no way to properly do a DIY cylinder bore

It has to be absolutely perfect, it needs a tremendously powerful machine to emulate what the factory did, zero chance I can do this myself

 

[dragfan66]

One thought has already been stated, no machine shop wants the project because you already installed the liners yourself.

I don't think you ever stated where you are located.
Many members here have knowledge and connections all over the place.
Something to think about....

 

[joesmith123]

One thought has already been stated, no machine shop wants the project because you already installed the liners yourself.

I dont think it is an issue, when I dropped it off, the guy said, "we can easily do that, it'll be between $100-$150 total" after I showed him the liners and showed the piston on it

I think the issue is what someone else said:

"They are short staffed and have to catch up $15K jobs and cannot stop to do a $150 job"

I underestimated how serious of a job it actually is

From the video I posted, it needs an elaborate milling setup, NOT stones for "honing"

It is a milling machine, a grade that they use in the factory, not anything one would find at harbor freight

"Honing" is sanding with stones of different grits, what this needs is BORING, it is MILLING away metal, not scratching it with stone, zero chance one could DIY


It is a more serious job than I anticipated

I will spend more time appreciating the power it needs to do the job right, and give the next shop as long as they want with it

That changes the plans: refocus all my energy on the engine with the hole in it, put away all the parts for the engine that needs the machine work, take all the bearings that were going onto the block without the hole in it, and use those on the block with the hole in it

The spending that I am anticipating and need to save for: the gasket kit for this engine, filling up the acetylene and oxy tanks, figuring out the patch that I will weld onto the block with the hole in it, any other welding supplies that yall instruct me to get/use, I'll leave the crank bearings that have been installed on the other crankshaft alone, and just order new crank bearings

Thats where I am at with this project. I plan on chipping away at night time slowly every chance I get for the next few months. I fully understand that the block with the new liners is going to be a task that might take a few months to figure out/find someone that will do the job, and I am fully aware that it will take lots of time practicing the acetylene torch to properly seal the hole on the block

But, theoretically, I should need no machine shop work for the block with the hole in it, the liners look fine

I will take very up close pictures of the engine that still has all the gears attached, and make sure that I document somewhere exactly how everything is oriented, start to take apart the engine with the hole in it, put new bearings/pistons/rings/everything that I was doing to the block without the hole

I don't think you ever stated where you are located.
Many members here have knowledge and connections all over the place.
Something to think about....

Yes I will consider this route but I think it is a general problem. Meaning,

Any shop that has this grade of machinery and people to use it is swamped with dozens of $15K jobs, why would they have time to squeeze in joe smith, a nobody? I am just listening to what that others said and understanding (and agreeing).

I think fried was right to just leave the block at the country one but it was too late by the time I saw that post

New plan, start searching for shops that are 2 hours away, and offer them big $$ if they can squeeze me in and get it done within a month. I am not rushing since I now see what it takes.

No matter how you slice it, any route that I need to take to get at least one engine running is filled with big challenges, and will cost twice as much as I thought. I am nervous about taking apart the engine that is factory spec and was being used to build the other engine, but no plans are ever smooth, the road is bumpy, to make us appreciate the non bumpy road

I'll figure it out

 

[fried1765]

I dont think it is an issue, when I dropped it off, the guy said, "we can easily do that, it'll be between $100-$150 total" after I showed him the liners and showed the piston on it

I think the issue is what someone else said:

"They are short staffed and have to catch up $15K jobs and cannot stop to do a $150 job"

I underestimated how serious of a job it actually is

From the video I posted, it needs an elaborate milling setup, NOT stones for "honing"

It is a milling machine, a grade that they use in the factory, not anything one would find at harbor freight

"Honing" is sanding with stones of different grits, what this needs is BORING, it is MILLING away metal, not scratching it with stone, zero chance one could DIY


It is a more serious job than I anticipated

I will spend more time appreciating the power it needs to do the job right, and give the next shop as long as they want with it

That changes the plans: refocus all my energy on the engine with the hole in it, put away all the parts for the engine that needs the machine work, take all the bearings that were going onto the block without the hole in it, and use those on the block with the hole in it

The spending that I am anticipating and need to save for: the gasket kit for this engine, filling up the acetylene and oxy tanks, figuring out the patch that I will weld onto the block with the hole in it, any other welding supplies that yall instruct me to get/use, I'll leave the crank bearings that have been installed on the other crankshaft alone, and just order new crank bearings

Thats where I am at with this project. I plan on chipping away at night time slowly every chance I get for the next few months. I fully understand that the block with the new liners is going to be a task that might take a few months to figure out/find someone that will do the job, and I am fully aware that it will take lots of time practicing the acetylene torch to properly seal the hole on the block

But, theoretically, I should need no machine shop work for the block with the hole in it, the liners look fine

I will take very up close pictures of the engine that still has all the gears attached, and make sure that I document somewhere exactly how everything is oriented, start to take apart the engine with the hole in it, put new bearings/pistons/rings/everything that I was doing to the block without the hole



Yes I will consider this route but I think it is a general problem. Meaning,

Any shop that has this grade of machinery and people to use it is swamped with dozens of $15K jobs, why would they have time to squeeze in joe smith, a nobody? I am just listening to what that others said and understanding (and agreeing).

I think fried was right to just leave the block at the country one but it was too late by the time I saw that post

New plan, start searching for shops that are 2 hours away, and offer them big $$ if they can squeeze me in and get it done within a month. I am not rushing since I now see what it takes.
b
No matter how you slice it, any route that I need to take to get at least one engine running is filled with big challenges, and will cost twice as much as I thought. I am nervous about taking apart the engine that is factory spec and was being used to build the other engine, but no plans are ever smooth, the road is bumpy, to make us appreciate the non bumpy road

I'll figure it out

Seems a bit like chasing rainbows at this point!

 

[fried1765]

One thought has already been stated, no machine shop wants the project because you already installed the liners yourself.

I don't think you ever stated where you are located.
Many members here have knowledge and connections all over the place.
Something to think about....

He is.... "from earth"....
Apparently has location paranoia.

 

[Ktrim]

Refresh our memories. What happened when the block broke? What came apart?
With catastrophic block damage and there is going to be more internal damage. Cylinder walls etc.
You're most likely going to be getting in deeper than with the other block.
Also welding cast iron is an art. There are "professionals " that don't always get it right.
Block has to be heated, do you have an oven?
Has to be stick welded with nickel rod. Do you have these resources?

 

[DustyRusty]

 

[DustyRusty]

I believe that I have found the solution to welding this block to repair it, that is assuming that he has the broken piece to put back into the hole. I am not a welder, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night, so I am confident that I could weld the block using the Muggy Weld sticks. Check it out... https://www.youtube.com/@BrandonLund

 

[joesmith123]

Took out pistons from block with hole

Cleaned up shop, reorganized all tools, hit all areas with compressed air, leveled the ground using bx1500

Dusty engine, before hitting it with compressed air/diesel/wire wheel

Popped out piston #1, exposed bolts and took 1 minute long video showing the gears and the backs of them and how they are put together

Pointing to piston serial, facing right of tractor

Popped out rear piston, serial facing right of tractor

Three pistons removed from engine with hole in it, notice how the top piston in the picture might have a bent connecting as well as the middle piston (that put the hole in the block)

That is piston #3, furthest from the front of tractor, I compared these connecting rods to the ones from the engine without the hole in it, and those ones looked more straight

When I spin the crankshaft, I am pointing maybe some kind of metal that got crushed into the gear, because it will interrupt the smoothness of the spinning, when this part of the gear touches the gear above it, I can feel it be more resistant

Next plans: carefully remove all gears and all parts, get the block off the tractor, remove the crank casing, then I will look into the welding of the patch onto the block, a permanent fix of some sort, then I fill the bottles with the torch gases, weld the patch onto the block, and if I cant figure it out, I can still take the block somewhere and maybe have it done professionally. not the end of the world, but it is a bummer that maybe there is connecting rod damage other than the center piston that blew the hole in the block

it'll get figured out

 

[Ktrim]

Can't see the bores but judging from the piston skirts you're putting sleeves in that one too. And what does torch have to do with welding the block?