Fixing hole in side of block

[Ktrim]

Have you looked at the camshafts, cam bearings in these blocks?

 

[Henro]

This thread has exceeded my ability to maintain concentration.

BUT I would comment that if Joe’s solution is less reliable service, and a perfect repair would work for 4000 hours, but Joe’s just 1000. At 100 hours per year that would still be ten years...

I used to be an idealist in my younger years…not any more though...

Just my take on it.

So I say: Yea, Go Joe, Go Joe, raw raw raw...

 

[joesmith123]

Refresh our memories. What happened when the block broke? What came apart?

I had the engine running on higher RPM with a knock

Explosion occurred, big flash and then I thought it was on fire

Engine was still running, connecting rod slapping on the block and crankshaft

I quickly had to figure out how to shut her off, choke next to right knee and shut her off

With catastrophic block damage and there is going to be more internal damage. Cylinder walls etc.
You're most likely going to be getting in deeper than with the other block.

Yes I understand. So far, I do not see any other damage to the block. Any parts that were damaged could be replaced. I am hoping there is no other block damage beside the hole. I spent 20 minutes turning the crankshaft manually, watched all the gears spin, watched the 2 pistons go up and down perfectly.

Beside metal shoved into that gear that I pointed to, the crankshaft actually spins very smoothly. That says: crankshaft should be fine, and most other things connected to that whole system. But Once I take out all the gears, I'll clean everything and we will reassess the damages.

Ultimately, any damage that needs to be fixed can be fixed

You want to know the biggest worry I have? Successfully putting back the parts properly, especially since now time is dragging and I am forgetting...

Block has to be heated, do you have an oven?
Has to be stick welded with nickel rod. Do you have these resources?

Since I need to change the main bearings anyway, the block will come off the tractor, then it can be taken wherever and any process yall tell me to do can be done

Yes I am paying attention, some kind of electrical welding and nickel rods

I believe that I have found the solution to welding this block to repair it, that is assuming that he has the broken piece to put back into the hole. I am not a welder, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night, so I am confident that I could weld the block using the Muggy Weld sticks. Check it out... https://www.youtube.com/@BrandonLund

yes I am with you and this process will most likely be the solution

judging from the piston skirts you're putting sleeves in that one too

Zero chance, they are perfect. The engine only had 500 hours. It is practically new. It must of sat for a decade or 2 since those bearings seized and caused the knock and then the catastrophic damage.

And what does torch have to do with welding the block?

I know I may be fully incorrect, and I have not searched or looked into it. But, I want to research to see if I can weld the patch onto the block using the ace-oxy torch Where I would use nickel like it is being suggested and bonding the patch to the block reliably and permanently. I have not done any research yet, and I could be fully incorrect, and might have to do the method that dusty is showing in the youtube clip. Regardless, the block will be mobile and any procedure can be done to it.

I need to understand how metals bind together properly and permanently. It would be annoying to put it all back together, then have oil leaking because the patch failed. I did save the parts that exploded and the parts that were in the oil pan.

How I imagine the successful patch: The patch material would fuse into the block and become one with it. How they have alloy metals, I would make an alloy in that area successfully and permanently

BUT I would comment that if Joe’s solution is less reliable service, and a perfect repair would work for 4000 hours, but Joe’s just 1000. At 100 hours per year that would still be ten years...

Your comment is right on the money, your concentration is fine, you are keeping up better than myself

Can someone explain the science of why the other connecting rods got bent other than the center connecting rod that went through the block? I am fixing to take close ups of what I noticed, that the connecting rods from the good block looked more straight.

 

[fried1765]

This thread has exceeded my ability to maintain concentration.

BUT I would comment that if Joe’s solution is less reliable service, and a perfect repair would work for 4000 hours, but Joe’s just 1000. At 100 hours per year that would still be ten years...

I used to be an idealist in my younger years…not any more though...

Just my take on it.

So I say: Yea, Go Joe, Go Joe, raw raw raw...

It seems likely that Joe's final "fix" may actually be very... "raw"!

 

[dragfan66]

Buddy, the engine with the hole has had a catastrophic failure.
There is no telling what damage has occurred.
Microscopic cracks are possible everywhere, crankshaft, block, rods, etc. not to mention bent or out of tolerance components.
You are way deep in both of these engines.

Have you searched for a used or salvage engine anywhere?

I think Mossy Creek Outdoors is a member here and specializes on B and BX salvage Kubota tractors.
I think they are located in Alabama.

 

[Russell King]

It looks like the hole is simply an exterior wall of the block and is simply there to contain the oil inside the crankcase and dirt out of the crankcase.

There are three methods of joining metal using heat: soldering, brazing and welding. Soldering is lowest temperature, brazing is hotter and similar to soldering, then welding is the hottest.

Welding actually melts the parent material and the added filler material. They fuse together into a solid piece of metal. But due to the heat and cool cycle there is a lot of stress left in the weld area. Welding can be done with electricity or flame (acetylene and oxygen)

You do not really need the strength of a full weld in that area (assuming it is a simple hole ).

Brazing simply heats the materials with flame. The filler rod will melt before the parent material. The filler material acts like a glue and bonds the parts together.

I would recommend using a professional welding shop to repair the block since they have experience in both welding and brazing. But since it is not that critical you could learn how to braze and get the parts brazed together and then put a glued patch over the exterior to make it less likely to leak.

Heck I imagine that a good epoxy glue would work but I think I would use something like a small screw and piece of steel to hold the piece from falling down into the block.

 

[jaxs]

This thread has exceeded my ability to maintain concentration.

BUT I would comment that if Joe’s solution is less reliable service, and a perfect repair would work for 4000 hours, but Joe’s just 1000. At 100 hours per year that would still be ten years...

I used to be an idealist in my younger years…not any more though...

Just my take on it.

So I say: Yea, Go Joe, Go Joe, raw raw raw...

You must admit Joe has the unparalleled ability to lead people along paths of adversity and hopeless outlook. If I weren't afraid Wolf would give me a "vacation" I'd suggest a career where Joe could immensely serve fellow citizens and restore hope.

 

[joesmith123]

It looks like the hole is simply an exterior wall of the block and is simply there to contain the oil inside the crankcase and dirt out of the crankcase.

There are three methods of joining metal using heat: soldering, brazing and welding. Soldering is lowest temperature, brazing is hotter and similar to soldering, then welding is the hottest.

Welding actually melts the parent material and the added filler material. They fuse together into a solid piece of metal. But due to the heat and cool cycle there is a lot of stress left in the weld area. Welding can be done with electricity or flame (acetylene and oxygen)

You do not really need the strength of a full weld in that area (assuming it is a simple hole ).

Brazing simply heats the materials with flame. The filler rod will melt before the parent material. The filler material acts like a glue and bonds the parts together.

I would recommend using a professional welding shop to repair the block since they have experience in both welding and brazing. But since it is not that critical you could learn how to braze and get the parts brazed together and then put a glued patch over the exterior to make it less likely to leak.

Heck I imagine that a good epoxy glue would work but I think I would use something like a small screw and piece of steel to hold the piece from falling down into the block.

I am grateful when you respond and always get excited to read your take

I am comprehending: a weld will stress the block more than is necessary, and brazing will create a permanent patch good enough and stress the block material less.


I will fix to research how to braze and watch videos beforehand

I still have to remove all the components and the crankcase while i figure out the brazing

Speaking to the general forum:

It will be bonus if the engines run well and reliably

I am only looking to learn and document it for others to emulate

My cost on each engine is $330, who cares if I am experimenting and it doesn't work out?

To be clear, I do NOT need to do any of this, I am simply conducting an experiment -

Can we create a $15,000 machine from a $1000 machine using DIY and maybe some professional help

Don't worry, I will not let yalls words go to waste. I am fixing to put more time and money into it and we will get to the answers and see what happens.

Going forward: I will be less careful and more risky for the sake of moving this along

 

[Oleracer]

Update: Dropped off the block 10 days ago at the machine shop, they still have not touched it

I drove 1 hour away from the city in hope of getting a machine shop that has time for me, nope

Now: I need to drive 2 hours to go get the untouched block, what a waste

Please yall talk to me about this:

What would it take for me to DIY this properly?

I do remember wolfman leaving a link for a DIY honing kit but he said it would be best to have machine shop do it perfectly

How about those huge standing drill presses, where I put the block stationary, then come down with the proper 82 mm boring bit attached to it, and it perfectly grinds away at the liner?

That is the machine that they had at their shop, I will try to remember to take a picture of it when I get there

I feel like our money is so worthless, that no matter what I pay, I cannot get anyone to do anything for me since there is no point on their end

How many minutes of labor is it to hone 2 liners if you have the machine?

I was fixing to pay $200 for what I think is 1/2 hour of labor, that is $400/hour, how is that not enough?

Just let me know what it will take to DIY this properly

One machine shop suggested go to harbor freight and they might have the machine/tool

this makes my head hurt .

 

[Oleracer]

Update: Dropped off the block 10 days ago at the machine shop, they still have not touched it

I drove 1 hour away from the city in hope of getting a machine shop that has time for me, nope

Now: I need to drive 2 hours to go get the untouched block, what a waste

Please yall talk to me about this:

What would it take for me to DIY this properly?

I do remember wolfman leaving a link for a DIY honing kit but he said it would be best to have machine shop do it perfectly

How about those huge standing drill presses, where I put the block stationary, then come down with the proper 82 mm boring bit attached to it, and it perfectly grinds away at the liner?

That is the machine that they had at their shop, I will try to remember to take a picture of it when I get there

I feel like our money is so worthless, that no matter what I pay, I cannot get anyone to do anything for me since there is no point on their end

How many minutes of labor is it to hone 2 liners if you have the machine?

I was fixing to pay $200 for what I think is 1/2 hour of labor, that is $400/hour, how is that not enough?

Just let me know what it will take to DIY this properly

One machine shop suggested go to harbor freight and they might have the machine/tool

Good machine shops aren’t cheap nor fast. They normally have lots of work that takes lots of set up time. Your so called half hour probably realistically takes an hour of clean up 1/2 hour set up and 3/4 hour to do the job between phone calls an interruptions. Than 1/2 hour to clean up and move around. 15-20 mins to write bill. Another 20-25 mins to explain what they did to customers.. Its not that easy if you have 20-50 pieces to work on. If your not patient they have no problem sending you down the road. Plenty more one time customers when they are doing bread and butter work like flywheel resurfacing, brake rotors, struts,valve jobs, checking heads for cracks. We just have to be patient when we dont have the skills or equipment.
I have race blocks sitting at machine shop getting ready for 2025 season.

 

[lugbolt]

Good machine shops aren’t cheap nor fast. They normally have lots of work that takes lots of set up time. Your so called half hour probably realistically takes an hour of clean up 1/2 hour set up and 3/4 hour to do the job between phone calls an interruptions. Than 1/2 hour to clean up and move around. 15-20 mins to write bill. Another 20-25 mins to explain what they did to customers.. Its not that easy if you have 20-50 pieces to work on. If your not patient they have no problem sending you down the road. Plenty more one time customers when they are doing bread and butter work like flywheel resurfacing, brake rotors, struts,valve jobs, checking heads for cracks. We just have to be patient when we dont have the skills or equipment.
I have race blocks sitting at machine shop getting ready for 2025 season.

Yeah I'm as patient as anyone but there comes a time when patience runs out. Shops in this immediate area (the well-known ones), I've done business with them. #1 is about 120 miles from here, friends of ours, good folks. Also racers. Left them a rotating assembly to balance in 2013 August. No rush but I do need it. 2 YEARS later, I get a call that the grinding rock exploded while 'turning my crank' (why they were grinding it is beyond me, it was a brand new crankshaft) and damaged it. Said "you might wanna come look at it". Ok drove 120 miles, to find out that damage was done prior to this ordeal. You'd think that they'd get me a new crank. NOPE. I carried it and the rest of my parts away and never returned. #2, is about 15 minutes from here, well known circle track engine guy. Also years wait time if it's not a small block chevy of some sort.

Found a place about 110 mi the other way. Well known shop, or was at one time-and still a well-known name but under different ownership now. Dropped a Dart SHP block off for some work, they called me 2 1/2 hours later said "done". Well crud, I can't get there today I'll be there next weekend. No problem. Works was top notch. Expensive but worth it. Had them do a crankshaft (winberg 4.100 custom crank) balance, along with rods and pistons for the same engine. THe crank guy is top notch as well; did thing that I didn't really need but they saw room for improvement so they did it anyway. 3 slugs of Mallory and some cleanup, all done. Engine runs beautifully. I had it started earlier actually. Point is, just because they're slow as Christmas doesn't necessarily mean they're good and just because they're fast doesn't necessarily mean that their work sucks either. A CNC machining center can knock out a block in 2 hours depending on what needs to be done, so they can do a bunch of blocks in a weeks' time.

 

[joesmith123]

Removed block from tractor

Up close of connecting rod #3, furthest from front of tractor
Left: connecting rod from block with hole in it
Right: connecting rod from block without hole
Maybe that is how they are cast, but it looks bent to me

Took off oil pump, and the front gears and their hardware

Using a clamp to hold the gear still while I finagled out the locking ring

Then got ready to remove block from tractor: used a car jack to lift up block and move back the support so I can reach the bolts to separate bell housing

All gears removed from block, built a pad for when the block falls away from tractor, a wheel and a pile of lumber

separated engine from tractor: air chisel alternating sides until block separated slowly

Spun the heavy block around, sprayed diesel on all bolts getting ready to remove them

Removed the clutch assembly, then the flywheel

Getting ready to remove crank casing, sprayed diesel on the bolts, removed the bolts and that lock they put on them

These were all the parts removed, gears, clutch, flywheel, bell housing

Thats as far as I got. I am taking more time labeling bolts in ziplocs where I sharpie the area that they come out of. The more I do it, the better I feel about putting it back together properly.

Next steps: Remove crankcase, then figure out the brazing and the patch material, patch the block successfully, order the main bearings for this engine, including that front bearing

It would be nice to take out the crankshaft without doing too much damage to the areas like I did on the other, I'll figure it out

 

[Oleracer]

Yeah I'm as patient as anyone but there comes a time when patience runs out. Shops in this immediate area (the well-known ones), I've done business with them. #1 is about 120 miles from here, friends of ours, good folks. Also racers. Left them a rotating assembly to balance in 2013 August. No rush but I do need it. 2 YEARS later, I get a call that the grinding rock exploded while 'turning my crank' (why they were grinding it is beyond me, it was a brand new crankshaft) and damaged it. Said "you might wanna come look at it". Ok drove 120 miles, to find out that damage was done prior to this ordeal. You'd think that they'd get me a new crank. NOPE. I carried it and the rest of my parts away and never returned. #2, is about 15 minutes from here, well known circle track engine guy. Also years wait time if it's not a small block chevy of some sort.

Found a place about 110 mi the other way. Well known shop, or was at one time-and still a well-known name but under different ownership now. Dropped a Dart SHP block off for some work, they called me 2 1/2 hours later said "done". Well crud, I can't get there today I'll be there next weekend. No problem. Works was top notch. Expensive but worth it. Had them do a crankshaft (winberg 4.100 custom crank) balance, along with rods and pistons for the same engine. THe crank guy is top notch as well; did thing that I didn't really need but they saw room for improvement so they did it anyway. 3 slugs of Mallory and some cleanup, all done. Engine runs beautifully. I had it started earlier actually. Point is, just because they're slow as Christmas doesn't necessarily mean they're good and just because they're fast doesn't necessarily mean that their work sucks either. A CNC machining center can knock out a block in 2 hours depending on what needs to be done, so they can do a bunch of blocks in a weeks' time.

Wow you have a lot of miles between shops.
Guess my 1/2 hour ride doesn’t seem so bad now. Yep i have had expensive screw ups by machine shops. Most times i give a second and third chance letting them know in a nice way they screwed up and i know it. Never burn bridges in that field .. just not enough of them as you have found out.
Good luck.

 

[Ktrim]

I have a shop about 15 miles travel. Unfortunately closing in on retirement. Been with him a long time, usually not longer than a week, heads 2 or 3 days turnaround. Recently dropped 2 spindles off 55 dodge for king pin bushings. By the time I got done running other errands they were done. He's busy as hell but I have a long relationship he bumps me ahead when possible.

 

[joesmith123]

OK yes in a bit I will start to remove the crankcase

Wish I had a gear puller so I can pull that big gear out and not have to hammer it into the block

The pieces that broke off the block are in many pieces, should I glue them back together and try to use that as the patch?

Or forget that - shape a metal patch that would cover the hole completely and then braze that onto the cast iron block

I'm thinking a metal that binds to the cast iron and I would hammer it into the shape of the block

Question: can I braze with a regular propane torch? I do have that

Or should I fill up the ace oxy tanks and use a low temperature setting to do the brazing?

Since people are saying nickel binds well to cast iron, can I get a malleable nickel square that would cover the hole, and braze that onto the cast iron block?

No rush just planning ahead

 

[jaxs]

nibble,,,,,,nibble,,,,??,,,,,,,,,,,,nibble,,,?,,,nibble,,,,,nibble nibble????????????????? May have to rebait the hook and start setting it harder.

 

[Oleracer]

nibble,,,,,,nibble,,,,??,,,,,,,,,,,,nibble,,,?,,,nibble,,,,,nibble nibble????????????????? May have to rebait the hook and start setting it harder.

Thinking the same

 

[joesmith123]

Removed crank case, block ready for patch

Preparing to remove crankcase, took out the two bottom bolts that hold it

Airline busted, had to go get another hose, and put plumbers tape to seal it well, I try to wrench as little as possible, I cannot work without the air tool

The trick to removing the crankcase without air chisel: two bolts screw into it and separate it from the block

Removed crank case cover

Wrestled around with the block until I had it set right: 2 cinderblocks with 4x6s on them, separated perfectly to not block the exit of the crankcase

Put thicker fabric than last time to not let the gear dig into the block, came out 10 times easier than the block without the hole, zero damage to gear and block

Crankshaft came out perfectly, fell onto dirt floor, soft landing, no damage to anything

Showing yall the size of the hole in the block, it is about 3 inch by 3 inches, 9 square inches

Brought back the pallet table using 3 point lift on bx1500, to work on crankshaft and assembling it perfectly, also table has vice attached to it for when I want to hold the parts and hit them hard with wire wheels

I put the bell housing back on and attached the starter that took a blow when the engine exploded, starter sits pretty close to the block, but its ok if I put a patch that comes out a bit, long as it dont hit starter, notice also the hole in the starter

Took pictures of all serials and which way they are facing on the crank case, wrote it down as well

Observation: before removing the crankshaft, I spun it, it is dead silent and is smoother than the other crankshaft, spins perfectly

I cannot move any further without purchasing main bearings, and getting a better plan for the patch

Next steps: now is a good time to hit all the gaskets and all parts with diesel and wire wheel, hit the gasket areas with window scraper with new blade, get everything flush for the rebuild, save up for the gasket kit, the main bearings, that is all that needs to be purchased I am hoping, come up with a concrete plan for brazing the patch

My instinct says: Cut a malleable thicker metal that would bind well to the cast iron block the size of the hole, hammer on it emulating the curvature of the block as to make it flush (ish), get understanding of the filler that will be used to successfully and permanently bind them without fail

3 main things I need to figure out: The material of the patch that will be used, the filler material to bind them (nickel), and if I can use a regular propane torch to braze, or if I need to fill up ace-oxy tanks and use those on a setting that is low temperature

I'll figure it out

 

[jaxs]

I bet ol joe doesn't go through as much Oil-Dri during the entire episode as Runs-w-scissors go's through each day while devising projects he can finish with one arm before his wife catches him in the act

 

[fried1765]

I bet ol joe doesn't go through as much Oil-Dri during the entire episode as Runs-w-scissors go's through each day while devising projects he can finish with one arm before his wife catches him in the act

If you note Joe's "floor", he does not need to use Oil-Dri.