The right to repair

[Nicksacco]

Wow, this thread is why I like this forum so much!
I didn't expect the responses and thoughts to be so varied - especially learning about the fact dealers are asked to move to bigger/better/larger/whatever locations by the originating companies. Naive I guess.
I wonder if Messicks is moving partly because of that and partly because they bought another dealer.'

I also didn't realize we had aviation and computer folks as well. I am in both of those categories too.
One thing I will say about IT is that it reinvents itself regularly. It creates new shiny objects (which to some of us old folks looks like "everything old is new again"). I spent most of my working career in IT and it's changed a lot. Now there's less creating and more politics. I always got a kick out of Dilbert's comics. Enjoy....

 

[TheOldHokie]

Wow, this thread is why I like this forum so much!
I didn't expect the responses and thoughts to be so varied - especially learning about the fact dealers are asked to move to bigger/better/larger/whatever locations by the originating companies. Naive I guess.
I wonder if Messicks is moving partly because of that and partly because they bought another dealer.'

I also didn't realize we had aviation and computer folks as well. I am in both of those categories too.
One thing I will say about IT is that it reinvents itself regularly. It creates new shiny objects (which to some of us old folks looks like "everything old is new again"). I spent most of my working career in IT and it's changed a lot. Now there's less creating and more politics. I always got a kick out of Dilbert's comics. Enjoy....

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Whether your business is IT or otherwise strip #1 is all too real.

Dan

 

[SDT]

Wow, this thread is why I like this forum so much!
I didn't expect the responses and thoughts to be so varied - especially learning about the fact dealers are asked to move to bigger/better/larger/whatever locations by the originating companies. Naive I guess.
I wonder if Messicks is moving partly because of that and partly because they bought another dealer.'

I also didn't realize we had aviation and computer folks as well. I am in both of those categories too.
One thing I will say about IT is that it reinvents itself regularly. It creates new shiny objects (which to some of us old folks looks like "everything old is new again"). I spent most of my working career in IT and it's changed a lot. Now there's less creating and more politics. I always got a kick out of Dilbert's comics. Enjoy....

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I've always liked Dilbert.

Engineers can appreciate some of the subtleties sometimes missed by others.

SDT

 

[GeoHorn]

So this is also a subject that I've been watching for the last 20 some years, not really the "right" to repair, rather the ability.

Lawn equipment, most of you can repair at home. Tractors >25hp, and most all automobiles, not so much. You need an engineering degree to fix a lot of it now. The government doesn't want you messing with it because the average person doesn't have the training and/or experience to effectively return that equipment back to oem specifications. They're doing everything they can to remove you (and me) from fixing our own stuff for that very reason. They say "it's too dangerous" to fix your own stuff, but what they're really saying is "we don't want you to modify". Diesels in particular, but they're also going after the gasoline and auto racing markets, backdooring them. You can't buy off-road mid pipes for certain vehicles now. People that made and sold them are being forced to stop offering them. For a while, you could still get them but you had to check the option "I understand that this part cannot be used on a vehicle that will be used on public roadways", but now because of some attorneys, that no longer flies either.

and on that note, there are 'people' that watch these and forums, actively. I know this for fact. They are not members, they do not join, but they certainly watch them. Who are they? manufacturer representatives, government representatives, people you wouldn't think, do. There is a good reason I do not participate in threads that go into bypassing safety devices and modifying emissions control equipment.

Well…that post sorta resembles a “rant” more than a legitimate comment. Why?

Because our Elected Representatives created/passed a “law” that represents what the majority of citizens who vote wanted… Clean Air Act…. which regulates such matters.
The “law” does not prohibit owners from repairing their machinery. It only requires they be “qualified and equipped” to make repairs ”which affect emissions”… nothing more.

The fact that individuals may find this law ”inconvenient” only means they are either in the “minority” of public desire (as demonstrated by their elected representatives who authored and passed that law)…. or they were not influential in affecting the outcome of that legislation.

We can change the law. All we have to do is be registered to vote, actually vote, and have the money to influence our fellow voters to agree with us on that vote. AS always…”Follow the Money”.

And the mfr’s have taken advantage of us who wanted clean air by finding a method they can twist things to their benefit… They’ve created a machine that requires expensive equipment, education, and certification-of-repairmen to accomplish the repair.

Anyway… it’s NOT US against THEM (the gov’t and the gov’t agency). WE ARE the “gov’t”. All we have to do is be in the majority if we want to affect change…and most people in the U.S. live in cities where air quality outweighs rural tractor-owners.

Yep. Very inconvenient for us… but we agreed to live by the “Law of the Land”….in order to have the rights/privileges of rural living and tractor ownership and bitchin’ on the internet.

I’m sure Dilbert works for JD and has a role in this….

 

[Fordtech86]

They’ve created a machine that requires expensive equipment, education, and certification-of-repairmen to accomplish the repair.

It will get better when we go full electric…I mean anyone can just drop the battery pack out from under their electric car to replace the cell blocks when they go bad. Sure beats spending $17,000 at the shop to have us do it (that was the cost to replace 2 of the 4 cell blocks)

 

[Freeheeler]

The OBD2 specification is the tip of the iceberg. OEM diagnostics are typically pinpoint specific.

BMW has released their factory and dealer software (binary and source) to the public. Even the scaled down 3rd party Android port I use is telling me exactly what sensor is periodically illuminating the Service Engine lamp on my 335i. Have a look and you will see what I mean. If you look at the code you may meed to brush up on your German.

Dan

I was miffed the first time I went to check the oil on my 335 and realized there was no dipstick to be found. Dealer said to just let them do all the oil changes and repairs like everyone else. No thanks. A quick trip to youtube and you can be bmw master mechanic in no time. A quick flash and some hard goods upgrades and now it's pushing close to 400 instead of the stock 300hp. I am glad that my 2650 is mainly nuts and bolts and has a dipstick so I don't have to consult Dr. Google every time I need to fix something.

 

[SDT]

Well…that post sorta resembles a “rant” more than a legitimate comment. Why?

Because our Elected Representatives created/passed a “law” that represents what the majority of citizens who vote wanted… Clean Air Act…. which regulates such matters.
The “law” does not prohibit owners from repairing their machinery. It only requires they be “qualified and equipped” to make repairs ”which affect emissions”… nothing more.

The fact that individuals may find this law ”inconvenient” only means they are either in the “minority” of public desire (as demonstrated by their elected representatives who authored and passed that law)…. or they were not influential in affecting the outcome of that legislation.

We can change the law. All we have to do is be registered to vote, actually vote, and have the money to influence our fellow voters to agree with us on that vote. AS always…”Follow the Money”.

And the mfr’s have taken advantage of us who wanted clean air by finding a method they can twist things to their benefit… They’ve created a machine that requires expensive equipment, education, and certification-of-repairmen to accomplish the repair.

Anyway… it’s NOT US against THEM (the gov’t and the gov’t agency). WE ARE the “gov’t”. All we have to do is be in the majority if we want to affect change…and most people in the U.S. live in cities where air quality outweighs rural tractor-owners.

Yep. Very inconvenient for us… but we agreed to live by the “Law of the Land”….in order to have the rights/privileges of rural living and tractor ownership and bitchin’ on the internet.

I’m sure Dilbert works for JD and has a role in this….

Theoretically yes, but the Clean Air Act was passed decades ago and such legislation is (thankfully) rare.

Just about everything enacted since has been promulgated by unelected, deep state bureaucrats having a self interest in perpetuating their positions.

SDT

 

[nbryan]

I am glad that my 2650 is mainly nuts and bolts and has a dipstick so I don't have to consult Dr. Google every time I need to fix something.

Me too. And it has SEVERAL dipsticks.

 

[GeoHorn]

Theoretically yes, but the Clean Air Act was passed decades ago and such legislation is (thankfully) rare.

Just about everything enacted since has been promulgated by unelected, deep state bureaucrats having a self interest in perpetuating their positions.

SDT

That is NOT correct. The Clean Air Act of 1955 was the first to be enacted. The Clean Air Acts of 1963, 1970, and 1990 are ALL legislative Acts which have been passed by Congress…NOT by “deep state bureaucrats”. That sort of statement should be recognized as subversive propaganda and should not be respected. Sorry.

 

[JerryMT]

That is NOT correct. The Clean Air Act of 1955 was the first to be enacted. The Clean Air Acts of 1963, 1970, and 1990 are ALL legislative Acts which have been passed by Congress…NOT by “deep state bureaucrats”. That sort of statement should be recognized as subversive propaganda and should not be respected. Sorry.

These acts are broadly written. It is the un-elected bureaucrats that make the specific rules the great unwashed masses must follow. Unfortunately, Congress doesn't exercise its oversight responsibilities.

 

[GeoHorn]

These acts are broadly written. It is the un-elected bureaucrats that make the specific rules the great unwashed masses must follow. Unfortunately, Congress doesn't exercise its oversight responsibilities.

Yet another knee-jerk over-simplification. The Act sets Federal Standards over-which individual States have authority to regulate/enforce but which must be approved by EPA in accordance with the ACT.

Not everything is a bureaucrat stealing your “rights”...they are doing the JOB we pay them for.. Using state/local agencies is fully compliant with federalism and is in the best interests of citizens within their own locales.

http://ballotpedia.org/Implementation_of_the_Clean_Air_Act

 

[Henro]

Yet another knee-jerk over-simplification. The Act sets Federal Standards over-which individual States have authority to regulate/enforce but which must be approved by EPA in accordance with the ACT.

Not everything is a bureaucrat stealing your “rights”...they are doing the JOB we pay them for.. Using state/local agencies is fully compliant with federalism and is in the best interests of citizens within their own locales.

http://ballotpedia.org/Implementation_of_the_Clean_Air_Act

I think I read the complete thread, but not sure now.

My take on it is the people in power understand that to control tractor owners, that do not need to get any approval for their tractors, such as government mandated inspections and emission measurements, realize that the way to make what they want to happen is to force the manufacturers to do it for them. Hence the limits on what owners can do as far as repairs to their tractors themselves.

My guess is that what they have done relates to what they cannot do, such as limit the methane expelled by animals such as cattle. Misguided probably, but this is the political environment we live in.

Guess there will be emission devices plugged into the rear end of cattle sometime in the future. Want to say LOL but not sure anymore...

Whoops! I said political! Sorry...my bad...

 

[SDT]

That is NOT correct. The Clean Air Act of 1955 was the first to be enacted. The Clean Air Acts of 1963, 1970, and 1990 are ALL legislative Acts which have been passed by Congress…NOT by “deep state bureaucrats”. That sort of statement should be recognized as subversive propaganda and should not be respected. Sorry.

Absolutely correct and hardly propaganda.

Legislation is quite rare.

Hundreds of thousands if not millions of regulations have been promulgated by unelected bureaucrats.

Do your homework.

SDT

 

[SDT]

These acts are broadly written. It is the un-elected bureaucrats that make the specific rules the great unwashed masses must follow. Unfortunately, Congress doesn't exercise its oversight responsibilities.

Bingo.

Congress has intentionally turned over responsibility for governance to unelected bureaucrats decades ago regarding just about everything.

Unfortunately, in establishing our federalist government, the Founding Fathers, despite their great collective wisdom, did not anticipate this.

SDT

 

[SDT]

Yet another knee-jerk over-simplification. The Act sets Federal Standards over-which individual States have authority to regulate/enforce but which must be approved by EPA in accordance with the ACT.

Not everything is a bureaucrat stealing your “rights”...they are doing the JOB we pay them for.. Using state/local agencies is fully compliant with federalism and is in the best interests of citizens within their own locales.

http://ballotpedia.org/Implementation_of_the_Clean_Air_Act

The EPA is itself a federal agency staffed with thousands of deep state unelected bureaucrats.

Such deep state bureaucrats do indeed promulgate countless thousands of federal regulations.

You doubt? Have a look at the CFR sometime.

The CFR is not written by congresspersons, senators or congressional staffers but rather by unelected, deep state bureaucrats whose primary motivation is to perpetuate their existance.

SDT

 

[JerryMT]

Yet another knee-jerk over-simplification. The Act sets Federal Standards over-which individual States have authority to regulate/enforce but which must be approved by EPA in accordance with the ACT.

Not everything is a bureaucrat stealing your “rights”...they are doing the JOB we pay them for.. Using state/local agencies is fully compliant with federalism and is in the best interests of citizens within their own locales.

http://ballotpedia.org/Implementation_of_the_Clean_Air_Act

Reading your reference, the law gives the EPA the right to set the standards. When is the last time citizens elected anybody to the EPA?

The process works like this. EPA publishes an NPRM (Notice of Proposed Rule Making) in the Federal Register with a deadline to make comments. Anyone can comment but in most cases these issues are so complicated only the manufacturers make comments. (Regular folks aren't generally aware of this process.) Accepting the comments is optional for the EPA. Politics are involved as well as technical issues and a final set of rules are adopted and sent out for final review. Then the EPA "declares" the final rule.
Congress has an oversight responsibility to look at this but when is the last time you have ever seen them over see anything that was not political?

P.S. "Yet another knee jerk over simplificatio...." You don't have to be insulting to carry on an intelligent discussion!

 

[GeoHorn]

Reading your reference, the law gives the EPA the right to set the standards. When is the last time citizens elected anybody to the EPA?

The process works like this. EPA publishes an NPRM (Notice of Proposed Rule Making) in the Federal Register with a deadline to make comments. Anyone can comment but in most cases these issues are so complicated only the manufacturers make comments. (Regular folks aren't generally aware of this process.) Accepting the comments is optional for the EPA. Politics are involved as well as technical issues and a final set of rules are adopted and sent out for final review. Then the EPA "declares" the final rule.
Congress has an oversight responsibility to look at this but when is the last time you have ever seen them over see anything that was not political?

P.S. "Yet another knee jerk over simplificatio...." You don't have to be insulting to carry on an intelligent discussion!

As regards NPRMs: “Anyone can comment…”. …and… “…folks are unaware….”…. and…. “politics are involved …’
I’m sure you’ve heard the phrase “Ignorance of the law is no excuse”. Being “unaware” is being ignorant and disqualifies the complainer from excuse. The Public Comment period is when/where a person can issue any objection for constitutional or exceptional reasons. Further, if a rule exists which is excessively burdensome, provisions exist for mf’rs and individuals to deviate from the rule.
Of course “politics are involved”… Def’n: Politics is the set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations between individuals

I didn’t didn’t consider “knee-jerk” to be insulting. I thought it descriptive. No intent to insult. Sorry.

 

[NHSleddog]

Dealers make lots of money on service and repairs.

OEMs make little and provide parts, etc., mostly because they must.

SDT

LOL
The OEM "sells" the dealer their cars.
The OEM "sells" the dealer their parts.
The OEM "sells" the dealer their training.
The OEM "sells" the dealer their tools/software.
The OEM makes money off everything they touch, the dealer lives off the labor and the crumbs.

Kind of a dog and tail thing.

 

[JerryMT]

As regards NPRMs: “Anyone can comment…”. …and… “…folks are unaware….”…. and…. “politics are involved …’
I’m sure you’ve heard the phrase “Ignorance of the law is no excuse”. Being “unaware” is being ignorant and disqualifies the complainer from excuse. The Public Comment period is when/where a person can issue any objection for constitutional or exceptional reasons. Further, if a rule exists which is excessively burdensome, provisions exist for mf’rs and individuals to deviate from the rule.
Of course “politics are involved”… Def’n: Politics is the set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations between individuals

I didn’t didn’t consider “knee-jerk” to be insulting. I thought it descriptive. No intent to insult. Sorry.

The point I was making is that unelected employees of the EPA are making the rules. They have to take comments from the public, but they don't have to act on them.
I've been through this with the BIA and the Department of Interior when the State of Montana took my project water right and gave it to an Indian tribe. Clearly a 5th amendment taking without compensation. I commented publicly for 10 years as did some of the 2400 irrigators in the same situation. They took our comments, our citing of the laws that formed the project, and then took our water rights. We were not even allowed to testify during Congressional hearings. So don't tell me that unelected government agency employees don't get away with unconstitutional actions. And Congress approved it in one of those midnight budget bills that nobody read. That's why we now live in Idaho!

 

[NHSleddog]

Yes it does, the half that runs proprietary closed code software.
Linux servers are some of the fastest, most secure servers out there BECAUSE there's widespread community support in keeping it that way.
That's why half the internet servers use linux.
Are you saying that's incorrect, because it's open source?

Now that is what a fanboy sounds like folks.

Open source if fun for playing, and fast for cogging something together cheap.

Linux distros led the industry in patches and breaches last year. This next year will be a doozy with the current apache hack going around.

No problem with any of it, code is code, but painting with a broad brush that open source is so wonderful isn't very accurate.

And if Linux cost real money like real enterprise software, there would be no market share, be honest.