The PRICE of super UDT2 - are you kidding?

BAP

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If you like the ability to use so many available oils that JD approves and sells at a premium, then why don’t you go buy a Deere so you can use them instead of berating Kubota for keeping it on the simple side?
 

GeoHorn

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This might simply be semantics (as regards ”restrictive”)

Of COURSE Kubota is “restrictive”... for example they certainly are “restrictive” when it comes to the use of Super UDT2.... either use THEIR oil ...or assume the risk of Brand-X contributing to transmission failure.

I guess I don’t see being “specific” as a restriction. I see it as being “informative” and that’s what I want.
It “liberates” me from the fear of damaging my machine. YMMV
 

torch

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I “get” your basic message and tend to agree with most of it... but that last comment about “base stock” is not accurate, IMO. If it were, then the new synthetics would not have 2X (or more) the change-intervals of the traditional motor oils.
Please don't misunderstand, I like synthetics, I use synthetics. I have motorcycles with hundreds of thousands of kms that lived all their lives on synthetics. There is no doubt in my mind that synthetics hold their viscosity longer than conventional oils, and I did not mean to imply otherwise.

But like you said: the useful lifespan of a synthetic is a multiple; it is not infinite. I do take issue with certain manufacturers that make "no shear" advertising claims implying their viscosity does not change at all.
 

HammerNnails73

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Just paid about $70 for a 2.5 gallon jug. That's about $30 / gallon.
Seems ridiculous.
I have no doubt that my new L3901 NEEDS genuine Kubota super UDT2, and I won't try to save a few bucks and ruin the thing, but I really don't understand why they couldn't engineer the thing to use basic hydraulic oil. Sure, it may not be as efficient, but it's a whole helluva lot more practical, cost effective and user friendly.
Is this a case of engineers pushing technology or just a money grab?
Thoughts?
ATTENTION: You DON'T have to use the dealer's brand name hydraulic oil. Even dealer mechanics have confirmed that many other manufacturers UDT oil are sufficient replacement. Even Walmart's store brand UDT. If it makes you feel better to use the dealer's brand name oil, then go ahead, as you know you'll just pay more money. As has happened with every other item/product in history, dealer's will always warn customers and scare them into thinking that they must purchase their "OEM" parts and supplies from the dealer or their brand only, because it's an effective and profitable marketing technique. Unfortunately for them but fortunate for us, nobody can build/machine a part, that's only going to operate with a specific "brand" of lubricant. Common sense 101. Just saying... I own a Kubota SSV75 CURRENTLY. I've owned many other Kubotas & others, over the years also
 

Cathy Liebchen

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Just paid about $70 for a 2.5 gallon jug. That's about $30 / gallon.
Seems ridiculous.
I have no doubt that my new L3901 NEEDS genuine Kubota super UDT2, and I won't try to save a few bucks and ruin the thing, but I really don't understand why they couldn't engineer the thing to use basic hydraulic oil. Sure, it may not be as efficient, but it's a whole helluva lot more practical, cost effective and user friendly.
Is this a case of engineers pushing technology or just a money grab?
Thoughts?
That price seems quite reasonable- you only change it every 400 hours
 

torch

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ATTENTION: You DON'T have to use the dealer's brand name hydraulic oil. Even dealer mechanics have confirmed that many other manufacturers UDT oil are sufficient replacement. Even Walmart's store brand UDT.
First, google "yellow bucket hydraulic fluid" or "303 hydraulic fluid". Start counting lawsuits. There are unscrupulous players that will bottle whatever dregs they can find and sell it as "suitable for use in all tractors". Those fluids will work as a hydraulic fluid and probably are not any worse than the factory fill in a 1948 Fordson. But there is ample documented evidence that they can lead to excessive and premature wear in a modern tractor, particularly one with HST.

Are there good quality alternatives out there? Probably. Dan gave some examples above. I could add a couple more from north of the border. But in all the research I've done, I have yet to find a single oil manufacturer who will state "Meets or exceeds Kubota SUDT-2 specifications". Even the top name brands use wiggle words like "Suitable for use in Kubota tractors requiring SUDT-2". More often, they will reference plain old UDT.

That makes it real hard to prove the aftermarket fluid used is "equivalent" under the Magnusson-Moss Act for warranty coverage.
 
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fried1765

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Just paid about $70 for a 2.5 gallon jug. That's about $30 / gallon.
Seems ridiculous.
I have no doubt that my new L3901 NEEDS genuine Kubota super UDT2, and I won't try to save a few bucks and ruin the thing, but I really don't understand why they couldn't engineer the thing to use basic hydraulic oil. Sure, it may not be as efficient, but it's a whole helluva lot more practical, cost effective and user friendly.
Is this a case of engineers pushing technology or just a money grab?
Thoughts?
Aug 2022 - Kubota dealers are selling 5 gal. pails of SUDT-2 for $123.86.
That is $24.77 per gallon.
In the scope of life today......that number does not seem unreasonable.
 
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Pawnee

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You have to put the right fluids in, if the manufacturer says you need UDT then you don't have much choice but to believe them.
You wouldn't put the wrong fuel in.
Or brake fluid, seems we are up to DOT 6 now. Nobody argues about that.
 

TheOldHokie

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You have to put the right fluids in, if the manufacturer says you need UDT then you don't have much choice but to believe them.
You wouldn't put the wrong fuel in.
Or brake fluid, seems we are up to DOT 6 now. Nobody argues about that.
Of course DOT 5 and 6 is an industry standard used by many OEMs and available from many different suppliers.

Dan
 

MountainMeadows

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$6.25/Qt for full synthetic SUDT2 doesn't seem over priced to me. I sell full synthetic ATF for $6.95/Qt and that's reasonable compared to what they get at the local auto parts stores.
 
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ACDII

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I just got back from my Kubota dealer. The lowdown is to stay away from ones like Farm and Fleet branded fluids unless specifically for these HST. The plain label stuff, Don't use. The JD HST label is OK for UDT replacement, but NOT for UDT2 replacement, and they did confirm that Mystic JT5 is OK to use in a pinch for UDT2 replacement.

The use of name brand such as Rotella HD and a few others are OK as well. This is from the techs who work on the HST and do the warranty. They DO test the fluids when in for warranty work and that is how they found out the wrong fluids were used.

On my B2410 I have been using the Blains JD fluid since the first filter change, it was recommended by the dealer I got it from, and I noticed on my last change, I switched over to Rotella HD and the HST is a lot quieter in high range now.

They JUST got a shipment of UDT2 in, grabbed a 2.5 gallon jug so I have some in case I need it after installing the 3rd function and QAR kit. It was $70.26. I would save $1 buying the 5 gallon pail, but That would be a waist since it would be sitting opened and can collect moisture over time. Rather have the jug, easier to keep it dry since it seals better than the pail. Also sits better on the shelf.

When I replaced the filters and lost like 2 gallons I had to get Mystic JT5, and asked if it will be a problem blended with the UDT2, and they said it should be just fine, change it out at the next maintenance interval with UDT2 if I want.
 

TheOldHokie

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Good point, poor analogy on my part.
Shortly after my previous post I stumbled on this. A nice factual rundown from Kubota of the SUDT improvements and much better than the current product blurb. It's basically a synopsis of their SAE development white paper.

Dan
 

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David L. Smith

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Yup! SUDT is expensive! BUT, My b7510 hst is a 2004 and I never used anything but OEM spec oil and filters for it. Kubota enginering is probably second to none. What skimp on oil and filters? I just wince and pay the going rate. I know the quality of Kubota products.
 

GreensvilleJay

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that SUDT Specs pdf doesn't have ANY specs in it !!! So just HOW can anyone chemist or tractor guy ACTUALLY compare to other oils ??
 
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ayak

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that SUDT Specs pdf doesn't have ANY specs in it !!! So just HOW can anyone chemist or tractor guy ACTUALLY compare to other oils ??
Would be super easy to do with a mass spectrometer… super easy
 
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TheOldHokie

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Would be super easy to do with a mass spectrometer… super easy
That is exactly what you get in a VOA or UOA from people like Blackstone. A VOA gives you the starting conditions for any specific oil and the UOA lets you evaluate how well it is holding up in service and what an appropriate OCI for the application is.

But lubricating oil is not specified or tested by formulary. Lubricating oil is specified and tested for conformance by physical performance metrics. The specific chemistry used to get a specific performance can and does vary all over the map. You might get a rough idea of how an oil will perform based on the formulary but until you run it through the performance tests you don't actually know.

The table below is the most exhaustive list of performance requirements I have been able to find for SUDT.

1665008112160.png


For the most part those are industry standard tests applicable to any lubricating oil. The metrics and the motivation underlying them is discussed in Kubotas development report.


You really need to read that SAE copyright protected document to understand what they were looking for from the new formulation. I am a researcher by trade and I always want the best data possible so I purchased a copy. That blurb GreensvilleJay didn't like is their public summary and I posted it here along with a lot of other stuff I don't exactly recall. So since this thread has arisen from the dead I have also attached another laundered version of the original document that I personally authored. I doubt the SAE would even notice let alone come after me if I posted the actual 30 year old paper but better to play nice. Finally here is the Cliff Notes version for the PDF challenged:

Kubota set out to improve UDT in three specific aspects:
  1. They wanted to improve low temperature flow and pumpability. That is refelected in the viscosity data I have provided. They had their own in house hydraulic pumping test which is simple and easily duplicated. They pumped really cold oil through a filter and measured the length of time it took for the oil to warm and attain a minimum flow rate. This is all about viscosity which was a challenge in 1998 but not today. Even today standard formulations of UTTO cannot pass this test.
  2. They wanted to improve water tolerance. The oil had to be able to absorb 1% by volume water without the formation of sludge, emulsions, or additive dropout - all things that will poison an HST transmission. The test for that was a simple bench test where a measured volume of water and the oil sample were combined in a beaker, agitated, and allowed to rest. It was then filtered and any residue collected was weighed to determine pass/fail. There were some other very standard and unexceptional tests for rust and corrosion prevention that are in line with what you would get from any quality UTTO but again standard formulations cannot pass the filtration test.
  3. They wanted to improve wet brake and clutch performance. A slightly modified SAE #2 friction test stand is used to measure the frictional stability of the wet brake and clutch linings across repeated controlled applications. The % loss in friction coefficient is the pass/fail criteria. If it passes that phase the final test is to actually put the oil in a tractor and operate it looking for any noticeable squawk or chatter. Final pass/fail is a subjective judgement by the test operator.

Number 3 is not particularly interesting. You will know right away if the wet brakes/clutches in your tractor squawk. chatter, or fade under use. All UTTOs make very expansive claims about their performance in this regard,

Numbers 1 and 2 however are challenging requirements - SUDT has exceptional viscosity properties and tolerance for water. So much so that with only a few exceptions other UTTOs cannot pass those two tests. Case and Deere have essentially equivalent oils and at similar price points, You won't find anything a NAPA or Orschlins that can match any of those three oils.

Thats all the magic there is in that SUDT pail.

Dan
 

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GreensvilleJay

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re: Would be super easy to do with a mass spectrometer… super easy

yes, but I quit fixing them 40 years ago for the local Steel mill......
 

The Evil Twin

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$7/ quart is expensive?!? Compared to the motor oils I use in all the vehicles, it's not bad at all.
 
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