The PRICE of super UDT2 - are you kidding?

[Fordtech86]

That pretty-well clarifies that either Super OR regular UDT must be used. ... Don’t you agree?

No I don’t agree. Kubota RECOMMENDS it but they don’t REQUIRE it . They recommend because it meets their spec and they do their R&D with their recommended oil. Why would they waste the time to do testing with the many oils out there?

I do agree there is risk of warranty work being denied. This is just my experience in auto world, if it got as far a court due to this, Kubota would have to prove without a doubt that an oil they don’t recommend caused said damage. Do they have the money and resources to do so, yes. Is it worth it? Does it cost more then the warranty repair cost? (that I don’t know) Is it worth a relationship with the customer? These aren’t questions for you or me to answer though.

The customer is free to dump whatever fluid they want in their own tractor. They have to decide if the “savings” is worth it. Maybe they have problems, maybe they don’t

And I again, I know where my risk/reward value is, and I use SUDT 2

 

[GeoHorn]

I see your point in their “recommendation” ... but they “specify” UDT as a minimum is the way I read it. And if it were mine I’d have no problem using any mfr’s fluid that claims to meet that UDT description...IF I were willing to shift responsibility from Kubota to WalMart etc.

I’m with you tho’.... after the amount of money I’ve so-far invested in my Tractor.... I’m using their “recommendation” .... especially for something replaced so infrequently.

 

[kubotafreak]

I wonder if anyone’s store replacement was the 303 hydraulic fluid (mile master/super tech)....

 

[lmichael]

Yep. On my cars and equipment I only use the best. Cost more? Not in the long run IMHO. I actually got introduced to Super UDT2 before I got my Kubota. My Honda had the original Hydro fluid in it for it's entire life. Just try to find Honda fluid. (well you can but $12.95 a pint and it takes 4 qts). Another Honda guy told me about Super UDT2 and that it seemed to meet all the same specs as the Honda. I figured WTH. I went with it. The Honda worked great on it.

 

[RCW]

The customer is free to dump whatever fluid they want in their own tractor. They have to decide if the “savings” is worth it. Maybe they have problems, maybe they don’t

And I again, I know where my risk/reward value is, and I use SUDT 2

Very well said, Ford. My stance is the same.

I'm often baffled by the reluctance to at least use that which is recommended. I've voiced that many times here.

At the end of the day, they are free to use whatever they want.

 

[MOOTS]

We have 4 F mowers at work that have had Napa AW68 since their 50hr service. They are pushing 1200-2000 now. They run right at 400hr/year, so they get yearly filters/fluids.

I’ll keep SUDT in the MX for awhile.

 

[Fordtech86]

Very well said, Ford. My stance is the same.

I'm often baffled by the reluctance to at least use that which is recommended. I've voiced that many times here.

At the end of the day, they are free to use whatever they want.

Ain’t oil and grease threads fun I try to stay away from them.

And I feel it is great that the vast majority here recommend staying with Sudt/udt.

Are there good quality oils out there that will likely cause zero issues with the tractor, yes Im sure. I don’t deal with them everyday, so I can’t say.

For me I was considering using a non Kubota fluid, but in the end I was too lazy to do any research. I also work on stuff all day long, last thing I want to do when I get home is have to work on stuff. The tractor is a long term item for me so I chose the SUDT. Will I get more service life from the tractor with minimal hydraulic or transmission problems? Do I want to experiment with different fluids and report back here in 10 years with my findings? No .

 

[lugbolt]

If you don't like the price don't buy it. Simple.

Keep in mind nothing else out there meets kubota specifications, because kubota doesn't give out any specifications of their fluids.

So if you feel it's too expensive, go ahead and get some of that traveler ISO46 and dump it in. In time you'll notice a big (and expensive) difference.

--as a tech of 3 decades I rarely saw ANY hydraulic problems out of tractors that were maintained with 100% fluids and filters, rather saw many that did have problems, and many of those had junk fluids and filters. They saved a dime or two, and spent a thousand. Pay now, or pay later. Usually when later comes it's right in the middle of mowing or tractoring season and the ol' lady wants the yard cut or you're right smack in the middle of plowing food plots or whatever. Then you're looking at downtime. All cause you saved $20. I have seen this happen hundreds if not thousands of times over those 3 decades I did kubota dealer work. And I still see it from time to time, just different equipment.

Those that care for their equipment, it shows. Those that don't? I see Fram, Purolator, Hi Flo Filtro, anything that is cheaper it's on there. I bought another car a while back, nicest one I ever owned, and even on my older stuff, I use all OEM filters and fluids--have NEVER ONCE had an issue. Wait I take that back I had a FL1995 filter that had the threads double cut and wouldn't thread on. That was an odd one but it was isolated. That's the only one I can think of, ever (including thousands of both Deere and kubota filters/fluids)

 

[lugbolt]

It's not the same stuff. Premium UDT is a conventional base low-viscosity hydraulic oil made by Shell Canada for Kubota. The specs are more like ATF than hydraulic oil. Gravity degree is 29.3, pour point is claimed -57°C and viscosity @100°C is 7.1 cSt.

SUDT2 is a synthetic or perhaps semi-syn fluid made for Kubota by Valvoline. Gravity degree is 34.5, pour point is -42°C and viscosity @100°C is 8.1 cSt.

where did you get those specs?

 

[torch]

where did you get those specs?

I shared the respective MSDS sheets a few posts later:

https://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/attachments/70000-40201-pdf.60400/

https://www.orangetractortalks.com/forums/attachments/premium-udt-e-2012-pdf.60401/

 

[Mossy dell]

As an example, for motor oil, they offer a basis in specifying “CC or CD” and a particular range of viscosity.... which we can find many brands of fluids which meet that specification.

George, Kubota's approach to oil seems very restrictive to me. Deere manuals show a full range of modern oil numbers, including those with the low winter flow ratings (0-w, 5-W) many have gone to. Many Deere owners, even under warranty, use 0-40 as the ultimate year-round oil. Much less start-up wear, they say.

My B2601 manual says the oil must have an API service designation of CF, CF-4, CG-4, CH-4, or CI 4 AND "Proper SAE Engine Oil according to the ambient temperatures as shown above."

Those temps “shown above,” from 14 degrees F to above 77 degrees F, call for SAE 30, 10w-30, or 15w-40. Below 14 F, 10w-30 is listed. So even if an oil meets the API designation, a winter flow number below 10w doesn’t meet Kubota's specifications for my tractor.

 

[BAP]

George, Kubota's approach to oil seems very restrictive to me. Deere manuals show a full range of modern oil numbers, including those with the low winter flow ratings (0-w, 5-W) many have gone to. Many Deere owners, even under warranty, use 0-40 as the ultimate year-round oil. Much less start-up wear, they say.

My B2601 manual says the oil must have an API service designation of CF, CF-4, CG-4, CH-4, or CI 4 AND "Proper SAE Engine Oil according to the ambient temperatures as shown above."

Those temps “shown above,” from 14 degrees F to above 77 degrees F, call for SAE 30, 10w-30, or 15w-40. Below 14 F, 10w-30 is listed. So even if an oil meets the API designation, a winter flow number below 10w doesn’t meet Kubota's specifications for my tractor.

Why do you think you need an oil below a 10w for winter? Even in the old days of running straight weight oils, 10w was sufficient for winters at -30 degrees or colder.

 

[Mossy dell]

BAP, I don't need it for winter cold but have been influenced by the "most wear occurs at startup." The thinner synthetic oils are being used by most people for this reason.

My preference would be to use Delvac or Rotella in 5-40. I know a Deere owner who literally cannot believe that my manual does not allow this weight, or 0-30 or 0-40 for that matter.

On the first page of the attached brochure is a chart typical of what JD puts in its owners manuals. Kubota is so innovative in design that I find it perplexing how limiting they are on engine oil. JD sells a lot of oil and has a stronger vested interest, perhaps. But in this case it also puts them in step with current thinking and trends.

 

[BAP]

BAP, I don't need it for winter cold but have been influenced by the "most wear occurs at startup." The thinner synthetic oils are being used by most people for this reason.

My preference would be to use Delvac or Rotella in 5-40. I know a Deere owner who literally cannot believe that my manual does not allow this weight, or 0-30 or 0-40 for that matter.

On the first page of the attached brochure is a chart typical of what JD puts in its owners manuals. Kubota is so innovative in design that I find it perplexing how limiting they are on engine oil. JD sells a lot of oil and has a stronger vested interest, perhaps. But in this case it also puts them in step with current thinking and trends.

The 0w weight oils are not used because of cold start ups but because the tolerances of the engines have become so tight and precise that they need the thinner oil molecules to fit in the spaces.

 

[Mossy dell]

Here is a chart someone posted at Green Tractor Talk from their owner's manual. Typically a new owner notices that 0-40 covers the widest range of operating temps and wonders why not to use it. Then most people chime in and say, You should use it!

Again, not so much for winter but because it helps the engine get the oil it needs faster at startup.

 

[GeoHorn]

Mossy, I don’t see it as “restrictive” in the sense that you imply.
It appears as if you believe that Kubota is “restrictive” in the sense that Kubota won’ let you do something you want to do.... as opposed to.... Kubota specifying the oil viscosity-range which best meets their own design. In other words, it’s not that JD is “allowing you greater freedom to choose”.... Its more like Kubota is not so “picky” and can work with more-commonly available oils.

Zero-weight oils are a compromise between their ability to pump at low temps versus their readiness to drain-off of warm parts. Heavier weights (such as 10W30) will remain on parts longer during dormant periods. This not only means that oil is already on important parts before and during start-ups to prevent excess friction... it also means oil is on those parts during dormant periods which prevents rust and corrosion.

The better method of viewing this situation (IMO) is: Are you experiencing slow-rotation/start of the cold engine due to excessive viscosity? Or does your Kubota rotate and start up just fine with their recommended oils? If the former is presenting itself: Is that rather because your battery/charge system is in poor condition...??... or perhaps you’ve installed a replacement-battery and in an effort to reduce costs you’ve selected a battery with less than specified cold-cranking-capacity...??

In summary: Kubota designed their machine to use products which already existed and widely-available to customers. Other mfr’s designs created special-needs machines ...which also created demand for new products which they happily also sell. (Kinda explains why “JD sells a lot of oil”,.... heh?)

 

[GreensvilleJay]

I don't care how good 0W40 oil is , I'm NOT going out in -40*F or +122*F weather !!!!

Too bad the SAE 'engineers' didn't make the 'W' numbers MEAN 'cold temp -W- hot temp'....

 

[torch]

Politics, Religion and Lubricant threads; the 3 biggest arguments on the internet <sigh>.

If John Deere says use 0w in a John Deere, then use 0w in a John Deere. If Kubota says use 10w in a Kubota, use 10w in a Kubota. If you know more than the engineers that designed the things, use whatever the hell you want.

One thing to know about muti-grade oils: the number is what they start off as, not where they finish. To make a thin viscosity oil act like a thicker oil when hot, viscosity improvers are added. The wider the range, the greater the reliance on VI additives. Over time, the VI molecules suffer from shear -- a breakdown of viscosity due to operation. So your 0w40 becomes a 0w30 then a 0w20, 0w10 etc. And a 20w40 will become a 20w30. But the lowest it can go is a 20w20 because that is the base viscosity.

True synthetic base stock oils suffer less from shear because they are less reliant on viscosity improvers. The base stock itself is more resistant to thinning when heated and can generally meet both a W rating and a summer rating without any VI additives at all. But they still eventually suffer from shear no matter what the manufacturer might advertise. And the definition of "synthetic" is a murky one. Some lubricants sold as "synthetic" are just more highly refined from conventional oil base stocks.

Put another way: no matter what the base stock, the wider the viscosity range when new, the sooner it will thin below the minimum required to protect your engine and therefore the earlier you need to change it. Otherwise, any reduction in start-up wear will be more than offset by the increase in warm running wear.

 

[GeoHorn]

....Put another way: no matter what the base stock, .... therefore the earlier you need to change it. Otherwise, any reduction in start-up wear will be more than offset by the increase in warm running wear.

I “get” your basic message and tend to agree with most of it... but that last comment about “base stock” is not accurate, IMO. If it were, then the new synthetics would not have 2X (or more) the change-intervals of the traditional motor oils.

To add to the discussion: 10W40 grades have fallen into disfavor by many mfr’s because of that very point torch makes regarding the detriment of VIs. 10W40 is a very wide range and requires a lot of VIs to meet that range... so any VI degradation takes the base-oil out-of-specification pretty quickly.

Oil does it job (of reducing friction/wear/heat) by inserting liquid molecules between moving parts thereby preventing their direct contact. A “thin” oil will be quickly pumped to that place... but a “thick” oil will already be there because it did not drain-away as quickly. (thick oil being in-place is one reason a cold engine is reluctant to rotate.... but that’s a good thing in the sense it prevents metal-to-metal wear of those parts.)

It’s all a compromise.

 

[Mossy dell]

Mossy, I don’t see it as “restrictive” in the sense that you imply.
It appears as if you believe that Kubota is “restrictive” in the sense that Kubota won’ let you do something you want to do.... as opposed to.... Kubota specifying the oil viscosity-range which best meets their own design. In other words, it’s not that JD is “allowing you greater freedom to choose”.... Its more like Kubota is not so “picky” and can work with more-commonly available oils.

Zero-weight oils are a compromise between their ability to pump at low temps versus their readiness to drain-off of warm parts. Heavier weights (such as 10W30) will remain on parts longer during dormant periods. This not only means that oil is already on important parts before and during start-ups to prevent excess friction... it also means oil is on those parts during dormant periods which prevents rust and corrosion.

The better method of viewing this situation (IMO) is: Are you experiencing slow-rotation/start of the cold engine due to excessive viscosity? Or does your Kubota rotate and start up just fine with their recommended oils? If the former is presenting itself: Is that rather because your battery/charge system is in poor condition...??... or perhaps you’ve installed a replacement-battery and in an effort to reduce costs you’ve selected a battery with less than specified cold-cranking-capacity...??

In summary: Kubota designed their machine to use products which already existed and widely-available to customers. Other mfr’s designs created special-needs machines ...which also created demand for new products which they happily also sell. (Kinda explains why “JD sells a lot of oil”,.... heh?)

I respectfully disagree; of course Kubota is being more restrictive. I cannot speculate on the motive. But it puts them behind major advances in oil technology. It may be true that 10-30 and 15-40 are more common worldwide. But not in Europe and not in America. The only reason 5-40, say, might be harder to find in America is because it is in such demand.

I forgot to mention that my Deere-owning acquaintance here in VA is a retired petroleum engineer. His company conducted extensive tests of engine wear on viscosities. The lower the initial number, the less engine wear.

My B series came loaded with 10-30, I believe. And that's what I'll continue to use while it is under warranty. I'll use a high quality synthetic and hope the initial startup wear is mitigated by that. Having said all this, I know this engine will outlast me—probably no matter what oil I use.