Looking for some "machine advice"

[Lil Foot]

I bought my mill from a large company that required professional riggers to move the machine off their property. (insurance regs)
So I hired the largest, most professional riggers in Phoenix, because I had worked with them several times in my career.
They used a fork lift to load it on a trailer, haul it 20mi, and put in my garage exactly between the tape marks I had on the floor.
I think it took an hour, and cost me $300.

Every other machine has been moved and installed by me, using some disassembly, rollers, crowbar walking, portable folding crane, and muscle power.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Consider Grizzly also. It is based on the Birmingham design, & it is currently in production, where the Birmingham is not anymore.
I particularly like their "gunsmith lathe".

12" x 36" Gunsmithing Metal Lathe w/ Stand - Grizzly Industrial

<h1>G4003G 12" x 36" Gunsmithing Lathe with Stand</h1> <h2>Grizzly's best-selling gunsmithing lathe.</h2> When we set out to design a professional gunsmithing lathe, we felt that we should also make a smaller starter lathe for aspiring hobby gunsmiths. Don't let the "smaller" size fool you – the...

www.grizzly.com

Too many to list. Acra, Acer, Sharp, Victor, Willis, Kent, Precision Matthews, Birmingham, Cadillac just to name a few.

For a HSM any of the 16"/3000# or bigger machines is going to be more tha acceptable. In the 12"-14" and under not so much.

Dan

 

[TheOldHokie]

And dont forget imports from our southern neighbors

 

[Lil Foot]

Placement is something to consider also.
Putting a lathe too close to a wall or other obstruction might prevent loading/unloading a long bar.
Make sure of clearances for mill & grinder tables, and cranes if loading heavy stuff.

Nearby storage for heavy accessories, (chucks, vises, indexers, rotary tables, angle plates) will save your back, unless you are lucky enough to have a hydraulic cart.

Good lighting is essential, and fatigue mats are great for those long sessions.
In addition to overheads, I have two work lights on my mill, two on my lathe, one that moves between my grinders, and two portable handhelds that go wherever needed.

If you park vehicles nearby, (car, atv, sxs, tractor, etc) make sure you have suitable divider walls.
It is amazing how far chips can travel, and hot chips can be hard on paint jobs & plastic bodies.
(ask me how I know )

Get a good shop vac for cleanup; using an air hose can force chips into bad places on machines.
(we did a study on this when I worked a production shop, eons ago)

 

[BXHoosier]

And dont forget imports from our southern neighbors

View attachment 138878

We have that same Nardini lathe at work. It’s a solid machine. It will cut Inch and Metric threads but I believe it requires a gearing change. I’ve only cut threads on it a time or two.
My only gripe with it is that the chip pan slides out the back so you need sufficient room behind it to empty the pan.

 

[Runs With Scissors]

Well I experienced my first timed "Bid Spotter" auction.

And I learned a few things.

Man those 3 Bridgeports sold for over $4,500 each, so you add the 18% "sasafrass fee" plus the 6% sales tax and wow.....those things went for over 5,500 bones.


And me, "The last of the Big Time spenders" , walked away with 2 empty 55gallon barrels for 5 bucks (2.50 each) and one floor standing drill press for $70 hammer price. (gotta add "sasafrass and tax)


Overall it was very interesting. I'll be back, but you really gotta watch your ass and make sure you don't get carried away.

hahaah and for when I'm homeless, I can keep warm with these......

 

[BonnySlope]

Well I experienced my first timed "Bid Spotter" auction.

And I learned a few things.

Man those 3 Bridgeports sold for over $4,500 each, so you add the 18% "sasafrass fee" plus the 6% sales tax and wow.....those things went for over 5,500 bones.


And me, "The last of the Big Time spenders" , walked away with 2 empty 55gallon barrels for 5 bucks (2.50 each) and one floor standing drill press for $70 hammer price. (gotta add "sasafrass and tax)


Overall it was very interesting. I'll be back, but you really gotta watch your ass and make sure you don't get carried away.


View attachment 139014


hahaah and for when I'm homeless, I can keep warm with these......

View attachment 139015

remember gold fever, well it's the same thing with auction fever

 

[Runs With Scissors]

The more I look around, the harder it is getting to not just buy a "new import machine" Vs. "used one".

I have been bidding on some used 3 phase machines but keep getting outbid.

Mostly because I have no idea on how much wear there is, or really if they even work, so I am probably/obviously bidding too low.

(Oh and don't get me started on the 24% "sassafrass fee + tax".)

So follow my logic and see if I am "all jacked up" in my thinking.

Lets take for instance this machine I just got outbid on. ( and yes I know it still has time, but I have a feeling it's gonna go for near 4k+)

https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/au...0642/lot-f82e0322-f906-470b-b2fd-b1f70044df1b

It comes with a decent amount of tooling I think, (from what I can gather the whole set up NEW would be ~13K) BUT,

1. Its been used in a factory setting, so I doubt it's been babied.
2. I have to drive 4 hours to get it, pay a rigger ~500 to load it on my trailer. Then drive it 7 hours north, then figure out how to load it, which will cost me 3-500 for fork lift rental, and 11 hours of fuel (300 bucks)
3. build a "15 Jiga-watt Rotary Phase Converter" $500-$800
4. Clean it up, then hope it works.

So "all in", if I get the machine for $3500 + "sassafras fees of 24%= $4340 ), I will be at ~$6,500.

Or I can whip out the Visa card, punch in a few numbers and get this new 14 X 40, gear head machine, delivered to my doorstep with "lift gate service", with a "supposed" 2 year warranty for 7K, and since I used a Visa I definitely have a 90 day warranty.

It is only 2 hp, Vs. the Jet that is 3 hp,

but the import is 220V single phase, so no "15 Jiga-Watt Converter" needed.

https://smithy.com/products/1440l-m...kikxPYjCha8FUP08E3Pe2p6t97eSlymNtu1uahJ3hwhCc

I mean is Jet, "king of the hill" and I am missing something?

Just thinking out loud.

Any thoughts?

 

[TheOldHokie]

The more I look around, the harder it is getting to not just buy a "new import machine" Vs. "used one".

I have been bidding on some used 3 phase machines but keep getting outbid.

Mostly because I have no idea on how much wear there is, or really if they even work, so I am probably/obviously bidding too low.

(Oh and don't get me started on the 24% "sassafrass fee + tax".)

So follow my logic and see if I am "all jacked up" in my thinking.

Lets take for instance this machine I just got outbid on. ( and yes I know it still has time, but I have a feeling it's gonna go for near 4k+)

https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/au...0642/lot-f82e0322-f906-470b-b2fd-b1f70044df1b

It comes with a decent amount of tooling I think, (from what I can gather the whole set up NEW would be ~13K) BUT,

1. Its been used in a factory setting, so I doubt it's been babied.
2. I have to drive 4 hours to get it, pay a rigger ~500 to load it on my trailer. Then drive it 7 hours north, then figure out how to load it, which will cost me 3-500 for fork lift rental, and 11 hours of fuel (300 bucks)
3. build a "15 Jiga-watt Rotary Phase Converter" $500-$800
4. Clean it up, then hope it works.

So "all in", if I get the machine for $3500 + "sassafras fees of 24%= $4340 ), I will be at ~$6,500.

Or I can whip out the Visa card, punch in a few numbers and get this new 14 X 40, gear head machine, delivered to my doorstep with "lift gate service", with a "supposed" 2 year warranty for 7K, and since I used a Visa I definitely have a 90 day warranty.

It is only 2 hp, Vs. the Jet that is 3 hp,

but the import is 220V single phase, so no "15 Jiga-Watt Converter" needed.

https://smithy.com/products/1440l-m...kikxPYjCha8FUP08E3Pe2p6t97eSlymNtu1uahJ3hwhCc

I mean is Jet, "king of the hill" and I am missing something?

Just thinking out loud.

Any thoughts?

1) THREE PHASE POWER IS NOT AN ISSUE.

These are machine toola and 3 phase beats the snot out of single phase. You can build a phase converter big enough to run any lathe you are going to buy for s couple hundred dollars in an afternoons time.

2) AUCTIONS ARE THE WORST POSSIBLE PLACE TO LOOK FOR BARGINS

You are better off shopping at used machine tool dealers or EBay. They will be more likely to offer fair value for a fair price. Many v will 5ake less than the aaking price.

If you are willing to drive the distances you just described there are plenty of opportunities to get a decent deal. Loading and hauling a 1000-1500 pound machine is nothing. A 2000-3000 pound machine is a good starting size for a HSM and can be manhandled with minimal cost. You may find a better deal on a heavier bigger machine but then you have to start considering a real rigger.

If you can write a $15K check you can a very nice import and watch them delliver and unload it into your shop. No worry about wear or abuse and you already have a good idea of what the resale value on that would be.....

 

[Runs With Scissors]

1) THREE PHASE POWER IS NOT AN ISSUE.

These are machine toola and 3 phase beats the snot out of single phase. You can build a phase converter big enough to run any lathe you are going to buy for s couple hundred dollars in an afternoons time.

2) AUCTIONS ARE THE WORST POSSIBLE PLACE TO LOOK FOR BARGINS

You are better off shopping at used machine tool dealers or EBay. They will be more likely to offer fair value for a fair price. Many v will 5ake less than the aaking price.

If you are willing to drive the distances you just described there are plenty of opportunities to get a decent deal. Loading and hauling a 1000-1500 pound machine is nothing. A 2000-3000 pound machine is a good starting size for a HSM and can be manhandled with minimal cost. You may find a better deal on a heavier bigger machine but then you have to start considering a real rigger.

If you can write a $15K check you can a very nice import and watch them delliver and unload it into your shop. No worry about wear or abuse and you already have a good idea of what the resale value on that would be.....

So for instance, a 2 hp, 3 phase motor that is converted to single phase, is better than a 2 hp single phase motor?

Edit: Is there a limit to the size of motor that can be converted to single phase? I mean, for instance can I convert a 7hp 3 phase machine? or is 4 hp the max? (I just made up those numbers)

I (obviously) have never had any 3 phase machines.


I am quickly realizing that these auctions are for the "very patient/special" people out there.

Oh well, I will have to find my wifes password for her facebook so I can start looking on that Marketplace thing.

I have been looking at Craigslist recently too.

The search continues...........

 

[TheOldHokie]

So for instance, a 2 hp, 3 phase motor that is converted to single phase, is better than a 2 hp single phase motor?

I (obviously) have never had any 3 phase machines.

If I understand the statement - yes..

But to be clear you are not "converting a 3ph motor to single phase". You are taking single phase service from the POCO and converting that to 3 phase and using that 3 phase power to run your 3 phase motor. If you are going to embark on a HSM retirement project 3 phase is the way to go.

Dan

 

[Runs With Scissors]

If I understand the statement - yes..

But to be clear you are not "converting a 3ph motor to single phase". You are taking single phase service from the POCO and converting that to 3 phase and using that 3 phase power to run your 3 phase motor. If you are going to embark on a HSM retirement project 3 phase is the way to go.

Dan

Thanks for that clarification Dan.

Having never really thought about "3 phase" machines before, there is still a little "Voodoo" to it, for a "noob".

 

[TheOldHokie]

Thanks for that clarification Dan.

Having never really thought about "3 phase" machines before, there is still a little "Voodoo" to it, for a "noob".

You strike me as a guy that enjoys mastering voodoo.

I still remember a conversation I had with my boss about 30 years ago. He was a "practicing" electrical engineer and did a lot of the three phase wiring in our computer facilty himself. My knowledge was limited to a little bit of E&M I got in college physics. I was just getting into machine tools and building my shop when I asked a couple questions about 3 phase, digital encoder signals, and floating grounds. He looked at me, smiled, and said *you really don't understand electricity". I was kind of offended but he was right. So I decided to see what I could do about that

 

[Runs With Scissors]

You strike me as a guy that enjoys mastering voodoo.

You are correct sir.

It's sort of a "good problem" to have I suppose..... albeit, a fairly expensive problem usually.

It makes me sort of the "odd duck" I guess.

It's funny, I don't know jack shit about whos in the running for the SuperBowl, or the World series, and nor do I care. So at parties I just stand there holding my drink, smiling, and nodding my head like a jackass when they talk about sports....

But when it comes to "shop talk" and mechanical things, that's when the guys at work, look over my shoulder and say "what the hell are you making now?" and they get to stare at me, politely smiling, nodding their head like a jackass......



any whoo....

I have been watching some videos about this "3 Phase Voodoo magic" today, and I must say I am very intrigued by it so far.

I am just learning about the VFD's, static phase converters, and rotary phase converters and I must say that it really does not appear to be nearly as "off limits" as I originally thought.

Very cool concept indeed.

Damn, I got another project. It should be a very cool project though.

OK, well I guess that solves my "electricity dilemma".

 

[TheOldHokie]

You are correct sir.

It's sort of a "good problem" to have I suppose..... albeit, a fairly expensive problem usually.

It makes me sort of the "odd duck" I guess.

It's funny, I don't know jack shit about whos in the running for the SuperBowl, or the World series, and nor do I care. So at parties I just stand there holding my drink, smiling, and nodding my head like a jackass when they talk about sports....

But when it comes to "shop talk" and mechanical things, that's when the guys at work, look over my shoulder and say "what the hell are you making now?" and they get to stare at me, politely smiling, nodding their head like a jackass......



any whoo....

I have been watching some videos about this "3 Phase Voodoo magic" today, and I must say I am very intrigued by it so far.

I am just learning about the VFD's, static phase converters, and rotary phase converters and I must say that it really does not appear to be nearly as "off limits" as I originally thought.

Very cool concept indeed.

Damn, I got another project. It should be a very cool project though.

OK, well I guess that solves my "electricity dilemma".

Three Phase for Dummies

Single phase 240zv, 60Hz AC is an electrical current using 1 wire where the voltage alternates sinusoidally between +240V and -240V sixty times per second.

Three phase 60 Hz AC is three separate single phase currents flowing in three separate wires where the voltage levels in each conductor are offset (phase shifted) 120 degrees from the others.The effect is the 3 phase power supply is never at 0 volts.

Since a 3P motor has three separate windings, one for each phase conductor, two of the three are always generating torque = more efficient and smoother motor power.

Dan

 

[Yooper]

I run my 20hp motor on the big lathe with a vfd. Your limit is depending on how many amps are available. I only have 60 amps into my shop so I programmed the vfd to start the motor over a ten second period. It ramps it up drawing only 30 amps and no load is twenty. IOW, don’t let a big motor intimidate you, although the price of the vfd might!

 

[Runs With Scissors]

I run my 20hp motor on the big lathe with a vfd. Your limit is depending on how many amps are available. I only have 60 amps into my shop so I programmed the vfd to start the motor over a ten second period. It ramps it up drawing only 30 amps and no load is twenty. IOW, don’t let a big motor intimidate you, although the price of the vfd might!

Thanks for that info.

It seems like I am seeing quite a few Leblonde Regals with the servo shift.

Is "servo shift" a good or bad thing?

 

[TheOldHokie]

Thanks for that info.

It seems like I am seeing quite a few Leblonde Regals with the servo shift.

Is "servo shift" a good or bad thing?

The servo shift lathes of that era (Leblond, Cincinnati, and others) were great when they worked but many of them developed problems and repair parts are $$$$ and hard to find. Unless you can test under power pass on them.

Dan

 

[Runs With Scissors]

Just a heads up on where I am at in my head anyway.

I think I am looking for a lathe with the follow things:

~14-16 swing over bed, but I think a 15 would be ideal.

~40 inchs long, but might not pass on a 50 ......

Must be capable of running 240V 3 phase........(From my understanding a 480V needs a transformer set up and I don't think I want that)

Must be able to cut inch/metric threads

Would like a spindle bore as big as I can get, but I am not sure what my "absolute minimum should be?

Anything I am missing, or not thinking about, or being unrealistic, or making a rookie mistake?

 

[Runs With Scissors]

The servo shift lathes of that era (Leblond, Cincinnati, and others) were great when they worked but many of them developed problems and repair parts are $$$$ and hard to find. Unless you can test under power pass on them.

Dan

Thanks Dan