Looking for some "machine advice"

[TheOldHokie]

Good idea.

I did as you suggested and it appears that its not a bad deal, I'm not "stealing it" but I would not be getting "shafted" either.

Unfortunately "negotiating" is a skill set that I do not excel in. As a matter of fact, I kinda suck at it.

If someone tells me a price, and I think its fair, I buy it. If I don't think it's fair I just say "thanks" and walk away. I have made counter offers on some things, but in general I hate having to do it. Although I admit, making offers electronically is easier.

I wish I was better at it in person.

Basically if it goes through, I will have gotten a "fair deal" I believe.

This is the one I want.

Clausing Colchester 15" x 50" Metal Engine Lathe 3 Jaw 10" Chuck | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Clausing Colchester 15" x 50" Metal Engine Lathe 3 Jaw 10" Chuck at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Dan

 

[Motion]

Even if you throw out everything of the existing pole barn a 36x40, space will evaporate quickly, if getting a larger lathe, I assume you'll be doing metal work, welders, milling machines. fab tables, chop saws, torches, presses, etc. There's always a chance you'll get into some type of woodworking. I suggest taking the next couple of years (while still employed) to build another shop sized to accommodate your needs. Tools and equipment will be always available. There's something to be said about purchasing old equipment restoring it and know what you got.

 

[Yooper]

One thing I want to emphasize is don't be intimidated by 3 phase! This is my 27" Lehmann lathe that I rebuilt and power it with a variable frequency drive (VFD). These are available on ebay and amazon and can be had for less than $200. The key is you have to double the hp rating if using single phase. This vfd is rated for 40hp to power my 20hp lathe motor. I have it programmed to start the motor on a 10 second ramp up to avoid a huge amperage inrush. Draws 30 amps on start up (programmed the led readout to display amperage) and settles at 19 amps no load. I experimented once by taking a .250" depth of cut with .030" feed per inch on piece of 1045 steel and it handled it with surprising ease. It was blinking the lights though. Of course this vfd was quite expensive but the point is, you get true 3 phase power that is very smooth plus they are programable. For a lathe the size you are looking at I would get one with a built in pot for speed control. Just do a little homework.

 

[lynnmor]

One thing I want to emphasize is don't be intimidated by 3 phase! This is my 27" Lehmann lathe that I rebuilt and power it with a variable frequency drive (VFD). These are available on ebay and amazon and can be had for less than $200. The key is you have to double the hp rating if using single phase. This vfd is rated for 40hp to power my 20hp lathe motor. I have it programmed to start the motor on a 10 second ramp up to avoid a huge amperage inrush. Draws 30 amps on start up (programmed the led readout to display amperage) and settles at 19 amps no load. I experimented once by taking a .250" depth of cut with .030" feed per inch on piece of 1045 steel and it handled it with surprising ease. It was blinking the lights though. Of course this vfd was quite expensive but the point is, you get true 3 phase power that is very smooth plus they are programable. For a lathe the size you are looking at I would get one with a built in pot for speed control. Just do a little homework.

A VFD is a good option, my son has a small shop with a mill, lathe and grinder and uses those. Since that sort of thing is his line of work so it was easy for him. Since Run with Scissors has time to weigh the options he would do well to research VFD's along with static, rotary and homemade devices.

 

[fried1765]

Its the last "work day" before I can start to collect my pension.

The next day, I will be 90 years old,.......maybe!

 

[Henro]

Been down that same road myself. Figured I should buy everything I imagined I would like to have for metal machining BEFORE I retired. I’d worry about becoming proficient at using them later…

That was around 15 years ago. Went on for several years…

So now my 16’x40’, plus 12’x12’ work space, is SO full of tools I don’t use, and probably never will, that I can hardly work in it.

Actually turns out that I didn’t develop the interest in machining that I thought I had.

What I really need to do is sell some things. 6x12 surface grinder, small horizontal mill, and two 7” South Bend metal shapers ( long story) are examples that come to mind first…but I am not too interested in dealing with that Hassle.

All I can think to say is: BEWARE!

 

[TheOldHokie]

A VFD is a good option, my son has a small shop with a mill, lathe and grinder and uses those. Since that sort of thing is his line of work so it was easy for him. Since Run with Scissors has time to weigh the options he would do well to research VFD's along with static, rotary and homemade devices.

This is a hot button issue on machine tool forums. I started walking this road 30 years ago when I bought my first lathe and i have tried it all. So let me share my view and real life experience.

VFDs are great for sophisticated motor control. Thats what they are designed to do and they are the standard form of control on a modern CNC machne. The machine will have many of them packed side by side in the control panel which will be getting true POCO three phase input power

But VFDs are not well suited to converting single phase to three phase for powering a shop. Yes they can synthesize 3P but that is not their real purpose. An RPC will do that just as well and at 1/10th cost.

Here is just one of my machines. It has 4 drive motors totaling 14 HP and each motor is controlled by old school
mechanical contactors and gear boxes. It would require 4 VFDs for individual motor control or one 20 HP VFD if all I used it for was phase conversion. Thats several thousand dollars.

Instead I built the home brew 20HP rotary phase converter and power distribution system you see on the wall from surplus items and less than $500. The RPC supplies quality 3P power to a 3P load center. The load center has multiple branch circuits with individual circuit breakers that feed the individual machines. It is functionally equivalent to having real POCO three phase service.

Here is my botom line.

If all you have is one machine with a single motor and want sophisticated motor control a VFD is a good solution. Iif you have multiple machines, or one machine with multiple motors and you dont need electronic motor control an RPC is much cheaper and just as effective.

Dan

 

[TheOldHokie]

A lot if people reading this threadxare probably thinking this three phase conversion stuff is FM. Its not.

Here is a simplified schematic for a static phase converter. Nothing more than some run caps to generate the third leg from the two single phase supplies and a start cap to kick start the load motor. Your load motor HP gets derated by 20% or more.

Here is a rotary phase converter. All it does is add an idler motor to the circuit to help condition and balance the phases. The start cap now kick starts the idler motor and once its runnning the load motor(s) can be started and stopped with the machine controls.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Been down that same road myself. Figured I should buy everything I imagined I would like to have for metal machining BEFORE I retired. I’d worry about becoming proficient at using them later…

That was around 15 years ago. Went on for several years…

So now my 16’x40’, plus 12’x12’ work space, is SO full of tools I don’t use, and probably never will, that I can hardly work in it.

Actually turns out that I didn’t develop the interest in machining that I thought I had.

What I really need to do is sell some things. 6x12 surface grinder, small horizontal mill, and two 7” South Bend metal shapers ( long story) are examples that come to mind first…but I am not too interested in dealing with that Hassle.

All I can think to say is: BEWARE!

Send one of the shapers my way. I will make it hassle free.....

Dan

 

[Yooper]

I started with the rotary phase converter 30 years ago because that was the best way to go back then. Had issues with the manufactured leg (aka wild leg) messing with the motor logic starters on some of my machines. Had to convert them back to the old style heater type. At no load, the wild leg would read 280v and of course drop under load to close enough to 240v to stay within 10% that the motor would allow. You can balance this out with run capacitors. Loads of info out there if this is the way you choose.

But for a lathe the vfd is awesome! Speed control (think tapping and reaming) is a huge plus. Reversing is another option on some but not if the lathe has a reversing switch built in. Circuit protection is built in to most and certainly every one that I buy. These are the other machines I power in my shop with them.

 

[ctfjr]

I was gifted a large air compressor at the old house. It came with a 7-1/2hp 3ph motor. It was easier for me to fine a single phase motor to convert it.
I am not familiar with the machines you are looking at but if there is only a single 3ph motor, it might be easier to just convert the motor

 

[TheOldHokie]

I was gifted a large air compressor at the nold house. It came with a 7-1/2hp 3ph gl. E It was easier for me to fine a single phase motor to convert it.
I am not familiar with the machines you are looking at but if there is only a single 3ph motor, it might be easier to just convert the motor

3 phase compressors and RPCs are not a good match. The heavy dury 5HP 3P motor that was on my old Wayne compressor is now an idler for the RPC and a new single phase Weg is on the compressor. Once you get much above 5 HP single phase motors are not attractive due to performance and price.

Dan

 

[JimmyJazz]

Been down that same road myself. Figured I should buy everything I imagined I would like to have for metal machining BEFORE I retired. I’d worry about becoming proficient at using them later…

That was around 15 years ago. Went on for several years…

So now my 16’x40’, plus 12’x12’ work space, is SO full of tools I don’t use, and probably never will, that I can hardly work in it.

Actually turns out that I didn’t develop the interest in machining that I thought I had.

What I really need to do is sell some things. 6x12 surface grinder, small horizontal mill, and two 7” South Bend metal shapers ( long story) are examples that come to mind first…but I am not too interested in dealing with that Hassle.

All I can think to say is: BEWARE!

There is a line in the fabulous book Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy " There is no joy in the tavern as upon the road thereto" that often comes to mind when I enter my 30 x 40 ft garage filled with machinery aggressively and enthusiastically accumulated , needed (I thought) to make giant sculptures. It didn't take long for that fire to fizzle. Its easy to buy the stuff...... The line by McCarthy comes after a tragedy had occurred.

 

[fried1765]

This is the one I want.

Clausing Colchester 15" x 50" Metal Engine Lathe 3 Jaw 10" Chuck | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Clausing Colchester 15" x 50" Metal Engine Lathe 3 Jaw 10" Chuck at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Dan

I do not have a lathe, but do have a Clausing drill press.
Wonderful piece of equipment!

 

[Runs With Scissors]

Well I'm on this Bid Spotter site and I spot a few mills and lathes.

Clearly this is my first "Industrial machine auction"

So I have been eyeballing a couple of things.

First is one of these mills.

This one has been bid to $500 already (BTW all auction ends on Oct. 1 at 1400'ish)

This one is at 250

and this one is at $125

There are some minor differences that I can see, Mainly in the "power feeds' and the DRO's but other than that it's hard to tell.


Any comments or ideas on the mills?

I am not sure what these will end up going for.

 

[Runs With Scissors]

Another question I have is about the brands of lathes.

I would like a "old American iron" lathe, but should I keep my options open for some of the "imports" like Jet and such.

This South Bend is currently at $25 and they will load it for free, so I am presuming they want to "broom it"

But this Jet is currently at 0, although it looks a little "clapped out".

Does that 2nd rail below the lead screw mean that it will cut metric threads?

How do you tell if a machine will cut metric threads?

 

[TheOldHokie]

Well I'm on this Bid Spotter site and I spot a few mills and lathes.

Clearly this is my first "Industrial machine auction"

So I have been eyeballing a couple of things.

First is one of these mills.

This one has been bid to $500 already (BTW all auction ends on Oct. 1 at 1400'ish)



View attachment 138792

This one is at 250

View attachment 138793

and this one is at $125


View attachment 138794

There are some minor differences that I can see, Mainly in the "power feeds' and the DRO's but other than that it's hard to tell.


Any comments or ideas on the mills?

I am not sure what these will end up going for.

Power feeds are not minor differences.

Here are some comps from a local (Baltimore) machine tool dealer. Their prices tend to be on the high side but dont expect those auction mills to sell at the current bid price. Typically theres a barrage of of last second (literally) bids that will push the price well into 4 figures. Those machines are also all aging pigs in a poke and you have no way of knowing how badly worn they are.

Products - Norman Machine Tool

www.normanmachinetool.com

Dan

 

[TheOldHokie]

Another question I have is about the brands of lathes.

I would like a "old American iron" lathe, but should I keep my options open for some of the "imports" like Jet and such.

This South Bend is currently at $25 and they will load it for free, so I am presuming they want to "broom it"
View attachment 138795


But this Jet is currently at 0, although it looks a little "clapped out".

Does that 2nd rail below the lead screw mean that it will cut metric threads?

How do you tell if a machine will cut metric threads?

View attachment 138796

The allure of old Amerixan iron is a myth. Newer machines offer tons of advantages.

The Jet has independent drives for power vs threading feeds. Helps limit wear on the threads on the lead screw and half nuts. One of those design "advancements" you get on newer machines. The number and type of threads is determined by the gearing. You have to look at thd data plates on the screw cutting gearbox but I am dure the Jet will cut imperisl, metric, and module pitches. The SB is imperial only.

The well (ab)used Jet is decades newer and way more lathe than the SB but a lot of prople will diss it simply because its Taiwanese. If nearby I would go look at and evaluate the Jet but not at all interested in the old SB.

Dan

 

[Runs With Scissors]

Power feeds are not minor differences.

Here are some comps from a local (Baltimore) machine tool dealer. Their prices tend to be on the high side but dont expect those auction mills to sell at the current bid price. Typically theres a barrage of of last second (literally) bids that will push the price well into 4 figures. Those machines are also all aging pigs in a poke and you have no way of knowing how badly worn they are.

Products - Norman Machine Tool

www.normanmachinetool.com

Dan

I figured that there would be a "final push" and that the bids will go much higher than the current bids.

But I also figured that I am most likely bidding against someone "like" a Norman Machine tool; Therefore I am getting it a "wholesale cost"?

I was not a " Business Major" in college but I am thinking that people like Norman Tool need to (at least) double their output money due to the fact that these machines may sit for a while. (i.e. they buy it for 1500 and try to sell it for 4500 9 months later).

Everything that is in my price range will be used.

And although I hate to admit it, being a noob, with no one local that I know that is knowledgeable, I am at somewhat of a disadvantage, and to some extent, I will likely have to "hope and pray" that the machine I get will be "good nuff".

And another question I have is "how worn out, is too worn out?" for a guy like me? I ain't that good to begin with...hahahahah

 

[Runs With Scissors]

The allure of old Amerixan iron is a myth. Newer machines offer tons of advantages.

The Jet has independent drives for power vs threading feeds. Helps limit wear on the threads on the lead screw and half nuts. One of those design "advancements" you get on newer machines. The number and type of threads is determined by the gearing. You have to look at thd data plates on the screw cutting gearbox but I am dure the Jet will cut imperisl, metric, and module pitches. The SB is imperial only.

The well (ab)used Jet is decades newer and way more lathe than the SB but a lot of prople will diss it simply because its Taiwanese. If nearby I would go look at and evaluate the Jet but not at all interested in the old SB.

Dan

This is good to know, thanks.

I will open up my search parameters.