Looking for some "machine advice"

[TheOldHokie]

I figured that there would be a "final push" and that the bids will go much higher than the current bids.

But I also figured that I am most likely bidding against someone "like" a Norman Machine tool; Therefore I am getting it a "wholesale cost"?

I was not a " Business Major" in college but I am thinking that people like Norman Tool need to (at least) double their output money due to the fact that these machines may sit for a while. (i.e. they buy it for 1500 and try to sell it for 4500 9 months later).

Everything that is in my price range will be used.

And although I hate to admit it, being a noob, with no one local that I know that is knowledgeable, I am at somewhat of a disadvantage, and to some extent, I will likely have to "hope and pray" that the machine I get will be "good nuff".

And another question I have is "how worn out, is too worn out?" for a guy like me? I ain't that good to begin with...hahahahah

You are bidding aginst the Normans and hundreds of people just yourself that will go higher than the Normans.

I have never dealt with Norman but I am sure those posted prices are negotiable. I am also sure I can drive the hour it takes to get there and see the machine run under power.

I will probably call Norman when if comes time (soon??) to liquidate my shop. The purchase price wil not be the best but they will have no problem doing the rigging and load out of a 8000 pound mill. And they will also be happy to give me pennies on the dollar for the two lathes and ALL of the tooling. One stop selling....

Too bad you are not nearby because that mill is a unique piece of well preserved old American (Cincinnati) iron and eats Bridgeports for breakfast.

Dan

 

[TheOldHokie]

Here is a video from one of the Normans. My mill is the same basic mill as the one in the video but it has a much nicer 3HP Cincinnati Toolmaster (Bridgeport style) vertical head on it. Everything on the mill works fine but the habdwheel casting for the X axis table feed is cracked and I bolted it together using an angle plate for a splint. How much do you think Norman would offer for it. As a reference they currently have this on their website and my Cincinnati is a much nicer and easier to sell machine.

Dan

Kearney & Trecker Milwaukee 76" x 15" Horizontal Boring Mill, 410 S-15 - Norman Machine Tool

Kearney & Trecker Milwaukee 76″ x 15″ Horizontal Boring Mill, 410 S-15 Inventory # 9267 Model: 410 S-15 S/N: 54-10005-07 “1972” Specifications: Table: Working Surface: 76″ x 15″ T-Slots, Number x Width x Spacing: 3 x 13/16″ x 3 1/2″... Read More

www.normanmachinetool.com

 

[Runs With Scissors]

Here is a video from one of the Normans. My mill is the same basic mill as the one in the video but it has a much nicer 3HP Cincinnati Toolmaster (Bridgeport style) vertical head on it. Everything on the mill works fine but the habdwheel casting for the X axis table feed is cracked and I bolted it together using an angle plate for a splint. How much do you think Norman would offer for it. As a reference they currently have this on their website and my Cincinnati is a much nicer and easier to sell machine.

Dan

Kearney & Trecker Milwaukee 76" x 15" Horizontal Boring Mill, 410 S-15 - Norman Machine Tool

Kearney & Trecker Milwaukee 76″ x 15″ Horizontal Boring Mill, 410 S-15 Inventory # 9267 Model: 410 S-15 S/N: 54-10005-07 “1972” Specifications: Table: Working Surface: 76″ x 15″ T-Slots, Number x Width x Spacing: 3 x 13/16″ x 3 1/2″... Read More

www.normanmachinetool.com

Based on a combination of my ignorance, your proximity to them (1 hour), their valuation of the one they have, and my aforementioned "return on investment" theory, I would think they would pay you somewhere between $4,500 to $6,500?

What say you?

 

[TheOldHokie]

Based on a combination of my ignorance, your proximity to them (1 hour), their valuation of the one they have, and my aforementioned "return on investment" theory, I would think they would pay you somewhere between $4,500 to $6,500?

What say you?

I would say SOLD!!! at anything in that range. I suspect the offer would be lower. Right now there are two Cinovas listed on Ebay for $5K and obe at $9K. Norman's price on the old K&T is total fantasy.

I paid $1300 for my mill and 15" rotary table 10+ years ago.. The seller was a heavy truck equipment dealer 10 minutes from me and he loaded it on a rollback I hired with his fork truck. I unloaded it on the gravel drive in front of my shop with a bottle of Dawn dish detergent and a come-a-long. Then I moved it into the shop with a 10K forklift I rented and mired in the gravel. I was still young and dumb and full of....

Should have had the driver back the rollback into the shop and then slid it off onto the concrete. Live and learn.

Dan

 

[Yooper]

Buying used machine tools will always involve some wear. How much is the question and the only way to find out is to physically operate the machine. Keep in mind the buyers premium when at an auction. After you win a bid they will tack on as much as 18% of the price. Ouch!

 

[Runs With Scissors]

Buying used machine tools will always involve some wear. How much is the question and the only way to find out is to physically operate the machine. Keep in mind the buyers premium when at an auction. After you win a bid they will tack on as much as 18% of the price. Ouch!

Plus tax and the "rigging fee".

I'm kinda ok with the rigging fee, as I have no way of loading it on my trailer.

I called a "random rigger" in Ohio, and he "guesstimated" about 350 to load, and rig a lathe or a mill.

As a matter of fact I just signed up for an auction and it has no rigger, so it's cash and carry. I'm not sure I will be bidding on that one. Not sure how I would load a lathe or mill on my trailer.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Plus tax and the "rigging fee".

I'm kinda ok with the rigging fee, as I have no way of loading it on my trailer.

I called a "random rigger" in Ohio, and he "guesstimated" about 350 to load, and rig a lathe or a mill.

As a matter of fact I just signed up for an auction and it has no rigger, so it's cash and carry. I'm not sure I will be bidding on that one. Not sure how I would load a lathe or mill on my trailer.

Dont forget it has to be "unrigged" at the other end

Dan

 

[Henro]

Runs with scissors, I think you should slow down, take your time, think more about what your needs might be in the future, and then once your feet are firmly planted on the ground start looking for what you actually need.

I know this can be difficult to do, as I probably share a bit of your personality, but having been there and done that, just the way I see it, being a few years ahead of you in life.

Of course you will do what you will do, and that's what I would do as well.

Hope as things develope they turn out the best for you!

You might consider joining home shop machinist, or practical machinist forums to get a better idea of what you should do.

To put things in perspective, imagine someone taking the same approach to tractors and implements when not knowing what he would need in the future might be.

 

[Lil Foot]

A small thing to be aware of:
Many foreign made machines have dial graduations in both imperial (US) and metric. (nearly everyone else)
(my Birmingham does)
Not a big deal, but I have seen on two occasions where a entry level machinist got confused, and screwed up a part by reading the wrong dial readings.
Just something to be aware of; some are easy to mix up, some are not.
Mine has imperial dials that are clearly primary, and the metric ones are clearly secondary.

An acquaintance of mine bought a chinese no name lathe that only had metric markings, and he could not adapt.
After a frustrating period of time, he paid me to make new dials with imperial graduations, a job that did not pay enough, and that I don't care to repeat.

 

[Lil Foot]

I don't know if you have any retirement communities nearby, ones out here offer machining courses for the hobby machining crowd.
(Sun City, Sun City West, Sun City Grand, etc)

One of our local community colleges used to offer a machining class, but recently dropped it.

 

[TheOldHokie]

An acquaintance of mine bought a chinese no name lathe that only had metric markings, and he could not adapt.
After a frustrating period of time, he paid me to make new dials with imperial graduations, a job that did not pay enough, and that I don't care to repeat.

I would have put a $350 DRO with glass encoders on it. More accurate and your choice of units and diameter or radius measurements.

My Cincinnati mill came with their gawd awful SnapSet counters on the feed screws and they were essentially useless by the time I acquired it. I removed them and put a DRO on the machine. Its now completely "dial less"

Dan

 

[Sidekick]

When I bought my mill from a machine shop over 20 years ago I jacked it up on 4 x 4s using step blocks and bolted them in place. Flipped the head and then dragged it to the door. I paid a rollback car carrier $25 to winch it up on the bed on the pallet jack and then roll it off on my garage floor using the winch. Was really easy but it only weighed about 2200 pounds. That harborfreight pallet jack I bought was the most expensive part and I still use it all the time.
My South bend lathe had to be removed from a basement and for that I just hired a backhoe for 10 minutes to pick it out and set it on my trailer. You can save alot by just hiring heavy equipment for loading/unloading.
For auctions that require riggers you had better get some prices before bidding.

 

[Lil Foot]

I would have put a $350 DRO with glass encoders on it. More accurate and your choice of units and diameter or radius measurements.

My Cincinnati mill came with their gawd awful SnapSet counters on the feed screws and they were essentially useless by the time I acquired it. I removed them and put a DRO on the machine. Its now completely "dial less"

Dan

This was back when DROs were a new thing (expensive) and it wasn't my money.
I think I charged him $500 and DROs were in the $2500 range.

 

[BXHoosier]

I had been looking casually for a Bridgeport mill for several years. I got serious at the end of last year and found a Taiwan built Willis mill. It’s built heavier than a Bridgeport and has a larger table with more travel in X and Y axis. Willis is in Toledo, Ohio and they stock replacement parts if I need them. I found the mill on Craigslist in Michigan 5 hrs away but the price made the trip worth it. I gave $3k and it’s easily worth $4-5k with the add-ons it has and the condition it’s in. The seller was clearing out some equipment from his business and he had a forklift to load it on my trailer.

 

[Runs With Scissors]

Lots of good advice above. Thanks guys.

I'm so new to this "Big Machine" thing, I think I need to follow a few auctions and see how things go.

So, I signed up for that BidSpotter.com site and I'm following a few auctions, but I am not going to throw my hat in the ring quite yet.

I have a ton of projects to finish, and adding one more to the mix seems counterproductive at this point.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm still looking, but I'm on more of an "information seeking" quest, unless I stumble upon a clear and convincing "deal of a lifetime".

Things I have already learned.

1. I am open to quality imports now. Although I need to learn the names of which ones to focus on.
So far I think Jet and Birmingham are contenders.

2. I do want a machine that will do metric threading, even though I Have only cut 3 threads in my whole life (lol). Since I am spending some dough on it, and going thorough the hassle of finding, transporting, setting up and such, It would be just my luck that the first project I wanted to do would require metric threads.....

3. I don't think I want a "project machine". I will wait/pony up a few dollars more, to get one in nice shape.


The search continues.............

 

[Runs With Scissors]

I had been looking casually for a Bridgeport mill for several years. I got serious at the end of last year and found a Taiwan built Willis mill. It’s built heavier than a Bridgeport and has a larger table with more travel in X and Y axis. Willis is in Toledo, Ohio and they stock replacement parts if I need them. I found the mill on Craigslist in Michigan 5 hrs away but the price made the trip worth it. I gave $3k and it’s easily worth $4-5k with the add-ons it has and the condition it’s in. The seller was clearing out some equipment from his business and he had a forklift to load it on my trailer.

View attachment 138842

Thats a very nice machine!

 

[Runs With Scissors]

Dont forget it has to be "unrigged" at the other end

Dan

I think once I get it in my shop I'll be able to take my time and safely unload it.

But trying to load it in a strangers parking lot, "under the gun", is an entirely different story.

I'll pay the $350.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I think once I get it in my shop I'll be able to take my time and safely unload it.

But trying to load it in a strangers parking lot, "under the gun", is an entirely different story.

I'll pay the $350.

I have unloaded several machines in the 1500 - 2000 pound range. Overhead hoist or pop for $200 to rent a fork truck like the one below. Just watch your lift points. You dont want to bend,/break things and machines tend to be top heavy and poorly balanced.

Dan

 

[Yooper]

Every machine in my shop including the big lathe were moved with 1-1/2 pipes underneath to act as rollers. Pry bar or come along winch to get things in motion. Three pipes underneath and a fourth one to “time” rolling onto as you roll off one as you go. You will be surprised how easy it is. You can even steer the machine by angling the pipes. Slow and easy gets the job done. Of course this is when its off the trailer and on the good concrete.

 

[Lil Foot]

So far I think Jet and Birmingham are contenders.

Consider Grizzly also. It is based on the Birmingham design, & it is currently in production, where the Birmingham is not anymore.
I particularly like their "gunsmith lathe".
Virtually identical to mine, but with some nice improvements.

12" x 36" Gunsmithing Metal Lathe w/ Stand - Grizzly Industrial

<h1>G4003G 12" x 36" Gunsmithing Lathe with Stand</h1> <h2>Grizzly's best-selling gunsmithing lathe.</h2> When we set out to design a professional gunsmithing lathe, we felt that we should also make a smaller starter lathe for aspiring hobby gunsmiths. Don't let the "smaller" size fool you – the...

www.grizzly.com