Guns...Times have changed...

[Flintknapper]

If we paid two armed/trained ex-military/police $50,000 a year to guard the school the money would last 53 years.

^^^^^

This should be present at every school. A 'PAIR' of dedicated, well trained personnel. Not a single 50 yr old guy who has only ever drawn his weapon to clean it or qualify annually. But MEN that will immediately go TO and ADDRESS a threat.

IF you aren't willing (or able) to risk your life to save that of young innocents, then you have no business guarding our most precious resource.

We only have one person (officer) guarding our small rural school (About 400 souls including faculty) but I know who he is and have NO doubt he would engage a gunman any and every way he could.

If he were to be killed.....'back up' would find him laying in a pile of spent casings and still clutching his weapon....I am confident of that.

 

[Lil Foot]

Sounds like my kind of guy, a real American!

 

[Henro]

Even though I started this thread, I really don’t have a dog in this race. But I’m wondering if taking some kind of action to limit the purchase of firearms by people that may be in considered honest, normal, sane people, and not psychologically damaged or whatever, might just establish different hurtles regarding gun purchases.

I mean, perhaps to buy a weapon you might have to prove you are sane. How would one do this? Hire a psychologist to evaluate you? Expensive and bothersome. My guess is that doing so would have the net effect of banning weapons that would be covered by such rules. Except for those with the cash to accomplish the goal, and the time to make it happen…if they could prove they are sane to begin with.

Not sure I am sane today…and even if I am today, what about tomorrow?

No simple solutions I fear.

 

[WFM]

If you want to buy a new gun and have to wait thirty days for it and sign a waver release of medical records to be inspected.
I bet gun sales would plummet. If your doctors records indicate mental health issues. No Sale. If your facebook shows your good friends with Charles Manson.
No Sale.
If you need to think twice before attending a parade. Then something needs to change.
If waiting thirty days is need for me to buy a gun and save a childs life or a parade goers life. I'll wait.
Unfortunately it will never happen.

 

[Fordtech86]

If you want to buy a new gun and have to wait thirty days for it and sign a waver release of medical records to be inspected.
I bet gun sales would plummet.

zero wait time on the streets just better have all the cash

Not saying I recommend it, but if you forgot there was a parade coming up and didn’t have time to wait it’s always an option

 

[D2Cat]

What I've seen happen is police will do nothing until a problem exist. Mental health folks, social services, etc. can be aware of something not right but nothing happens. All departments consider their hands tied until something OBVIOUS happens.... Then it's after the fact and someone is injured by the one "everyone" knew about.

 

[Flintknapper]

If you want to buy a new gun and have to wait thirty days for it and sign a waver release of medical records to be inspected.
I bet gun sales would plummet. If your doctors records indicate mental health issues. No Sale. If your facebook shows your good friends with Charles Manson.
No Sale.
If you need to think twice before attending a parade. Then something needs to change.
If waiting thirty days is need for me to buy a gun and save a childs life or a parade goers life. I'll wait.
Unfortunately it will never happen.

Ridiculous.

Please explain how requiring law abiding citizens to wait 30 days for a gun purchase would prevent some freak intent on committing carnage from doing so? Yes, it will never happen, because it doesn't need to ever happen.

Enforce the gun laws already on the books. Raise well adjusted, respectful, caring children and most of this will be solved. It begins AT HOME, we can't legislate morality. And blaming an inanimate object (firearms) for the violence (as Liberals and the lazy) want to do....solves nothing.

Its a mental health issue and we can throw in a heaping helping of 'Cultural/Societal' concerns as well. That is what needs to be addressed. NO MORE 'feel good' gun laws!

 

[Daren Todd]

Even though I started this thread, I really don’t have a dog in this race. But I’m wondering if taking some kind of action to limit the purchase of firearms by people that may be in considered honest, normal, sane people, and not psychologically damaged or whatever, might just establish different hurtles regarding gun purchases.

I mean, perhaps to buy a weapon you might have to prove you are sane. How would one do this? Hire a psychologist to evaluate you? Expensive and bothersome. My guess is that doing so would have the net effect of banning weapons that would be covered by such rules. Except for those with the cash to accomplish the goal, and the time to make it happen…if they could prove they are sane to begin with.

Not sure I am sane today…and even if I am today, what about tomorrow?

No simple solutions I fear.

The issue is, I could go out and buy a gun (private purchase) by the end of the week without any issue.

The gun purchases that are tracked are your in store and online purchases from liscensed dealers. You buy a gun from Billy Bob 3 houses down from you, it's not recorded unless you go to a licensed dealer, pay and fill out change of ownership paperwork.

If you want to get technical, only 3 guns in my safe have my name listed as the owner. 1 in my wife's name. The others were purchased from family members, gifted to me as a kid, or inherited.

 

[Fordtech86]

Its a mental health issue

I grew up in a much different generation than most here I believe. But I’m starting to wonder if we’re seeing the long term trials of Ritalin…hell everyone was on it when I was growing up. You could even make some money with it too.

 

[WFM]

Ridiculous.

Please explain how requiring law abiding citizens to wait 30 days for a gun purchase would prevent some freak intent on committing carnage from doing so? Yes, it will never happen, because it doesn't need to ever happen.

Enforce the gun laws already on the books. Raise well adjusted, respectful, caring children and most of this will be solved. It begins AT HOME, we can't legislate morality. And blaming an inanimate object (firearms) for the violence (as Liberals and the lazy) want to do....solves nothing.

Its a mental health issue and we can throw in a heaping helping of 'Cultural/Societal' concerns as well. That is what needs to be addressed. NO MORE 'feel good' gun laws!

Youve missed it Bud...you've missed the days of law abiding , you've missed the days of morality, you've missed the boy scout helping the old lady. Open your eyes. Its not 1970 any longer. I'm far from from being any type of lazy liberal I conceal carry and know our rights as americans. Look at whats real. Don't point fingers. The horse has left the barn. Its really to late to correct anything with society in general.
Will I attend the local parade this weekend. I probley will.

 

[Fordtech86]

Its really to late to correct anything with society in general.

Blame the kids!

 

[Daren Todd]

I grew up in a much different era than most here I believe. But I’m starting to wonder if we’re seeing the long term trials of Ritalin…hell everyone was on it when I was growing up. You could even make some money with it too.

View attachment 83151

I knew someone who was on it in highschool. Started abusing it, then off'ed themselves a few years later.

Coworker and I were discussing this very topic earlier. Except we were wondering if it's the weed.

Weed back in my day didn't have all the crap and hybridization to get the potency of today's.

I personally know someone who abuses it, and ends up with substance induced psychosis from it. Person has had his family confiscate all of his guns, and is in and out of the psych hospital when they have a melt down.

Person already admits to using it to self medicate. Figure they have a more severe form of bipolar. The person has already stated they would not take the prescribed meds for there condition. So unless they were locked in a psych ward and physically forced to take em, there isn't much you can do.

 

[Fordtech86]

Except we were wondering if it's the weed.

nah

At least not in flower form… with the edibles/ gummies and vapes who knows what the hell is in them. That is gaining popularity though, nobody wants to go to school/work smelling like weed.

 

[rc51stierhoff]

I knew someone who was on it in highschool. Started abusing it, then off'ed themselves a few years later.

Coworker and I were discussing this very topic earlier. Except we were wondering if it's the weed.

Weed back in my day didn't have all the crap and hybridization to get the potency of today's.

I personally know someone who abuses it, and ends up with substance induced psychosis from it. Person has had his family confiscate all of his guns, and is in and out of the psych hospital when they have a melt down.

Person already admits to using it to self medicate. Figure they have a more severe form of bipolar. The person has already stated they would not take the prescribed meds for there condition. So unless they were locked in a psych ward and physically forced to take em, there isn't much you can do.

Whatever it is, be careful who you believe before you consume/smoke etc (food drugs prescribed and otherwise, drinks…whatever)….or don’t, it’s your choice either way…it’s your choice to listen, to not listen or do what the majority tells you…it’s all your choice. Any pill/drug that works has side effects, sometimes worse than the affliction you got to the doctor in first place. People are always shoveling there shit (magic elixirs) to make money off you…I don’t believe times have changed so much…just different things being shoveled. Simple question is who/why do you trust to take advice on your health from? It’s interesting when people so smart they can heal you can’t tell you the price up front but can send the bill right after you leave…in general are those people to trust? Past few years majority of folks taking lots of advice from politicians and lobbying groups.

When Cigarette Companies Used Doctors to Push Smoking | HISTORY

Before studies showed that cigarettes caused cancer, tobacco companies recruited the medical community for their ads.

www.history.com

 

[Daren Todd]

nah

At least not in flower form… with the edibles/ gummies and vapes who knows what the hell is in them. That is gaining popularity though, nobody wants to go to school/work smelling like weed.

Your absolutely right there. Got a couple neighbors on the street that smoke the chronic.

One hides back in his garage so you can't see him. But you can hear the cough and sure smell it The other hangs out on the side of the house at the end of the garage so the kids don't see. He has a med card. He waits till the kids are in bed and after dark.

The one that hides is all day everyday.

It's amazing what you pick up on when your out walking the pooch

 

[Flintknapper]

Youve missed it Bud...you've missed the days of law abiding , you've missed the days of morality, you've missed the boy scout helping the old lady. Open your eyes. Its not 1970 any longer. I'm far from from being any type of lazy liberal I conceal carry and know our rights as americans. Look at whats real. Don't point fingers. The horse has left the barn. Its really to late to correct anything with society in general.
Will I attend the local parade this weekend. I probley will.

You didn't answer my question. What is it about waiting 30 days that would have prevented the recent parade shooting or school shooting in Uvalde?

With respect to culture/societal issues, it is NOT hopeless as you want to imagine and accept it to be.

There is just a PART of society that is off on the wrong path. And you're damn right I will POINT FINGERS to that.

While I readily concede our society as a whole becomes more and more secular with each generation....there are still plenty of good people out there. If I was able to raise a child into adulthood, owns 7 firearms of her own....but has never shot anyone, then others can too.

BUT....she was raised in a two parent family. We administered discipline when needed. We encouraged her to do certain things and EXPECTED certain levels of achievement. She was involved in sports growing up (not mindless video games). She was actually required to do her homework and as result was straight A student all through school.

She grew up going to church and learned lessons in morality and compassion there as well as from home. We knew where she was and what she was doing pretty much all the time (except for when she was away at college). She has never been in trouble, arrested or accused of anything untoward.

She grew into a responsible, independent, reliable person who is a Medical Professional.

So too have nearly all the offspring on my side of the family anyway. ALL are productive citizens and well respected. So don't give me that "horse has left barn' nonsense. We reap what we sow. There is a certain faction of society that need to pull themselves up by the bootstraps.

 

[D2Cat]

Blame the kids!

It's not to blame today's kids, it actually those kids parents or grandparents.

It's the kids parents that didn't parent. The parents never learned what separation of church and state was really about and let the news casters educate them. Went through life never doubting much that was presented by (the then) black box. Don't want the pledge of allegiance or prayer at the school to influence values, but let games, toys and gangs be the parents. A couple of generations of that and we've got a mess.

One of the best ways to see through one's character is to be around their pet. You'll discover real quick if that person knows how to be a leader, respectful of self and others by how their dog acts!!!!

 

[troverman]

If you want to buy a new gun and have to wait thirty days for it and sign a waver release of medical records to be inspected.
I bet gun sales would plummet. If your doctors records indicate mental health issues. No Sale. If your facebook shows your good friends with Charles Manson.
No Sale.
If you need to think twice before attending a parade. Then something needs to change.
If waiting thirty days is need for me to buy a gun and save a childs life or a parade goers life. I'll wait.
Unfortunately it will never happen.

No. You're falling into the trap that somehow guns are at fault, and if we could "limit" them in someway, we could save lives. When it comes to your freedoms, never give an inch. Once those freedoms are relinquished, they rarely return.

Let me put it this way. Suppose I wanted to kill people at a parade, but all the regulations made it tough for me to get a gun. But I did have an SUV...what would happen if I just used the SUV as a weapon? Oh wait, that already happened at a Christmas parade in WI last year, 5 dead and 50 injured. Pretty much as "successful" as this parade shooter. So if we allowed the government to steal all your freedoms offered by the 2A, would it have solved the problem? No. Again, the firearms are not the problem. They are simply a tool being used for the wrong purpose.

 

[Bmyers]

As Radas and I have discussed at length, Illinois already has all those laws you propose.

Illinois has the FOID card, which you must complete and the ISP have 90 days, which typically they take more than that to run a background check and mental health check and anything else they would like on you-this failed.

Illinois has a waiting period to buy firearms. You must wait 72 hours for all gun purchases on top of however long you waited for your FOID card-this failed.

Illinois has Red flag law, which if you follow the news they are wanting to take our red flag law national, but once again-this failed.

Illinois private sales require a FOID card. You are required to check to see if the FOID card is valid via ISP website, failure to do so and you can have criminal and civil liability issues..

What has been determined is that the only ones that follow all the rules that Illinois has passed is the law abiding citizens. By the very definition of criminal, they break the laws.

What has also been proven, buying guns on the streets of Chicago are easier than it is for law abiding citizens to buy legal guns. Chicago has a huge black market for guns.

Yes, I'm anti-gun laws(actually more than just gun laws, I think the government has to much reach in our day-to-day life, but that is whole different topic). Why should I be punished for something someone else has done? We have proof that NONE of the proposed gun laws work because of one simple fact, criminals don't follow gun laws.

At the same time we are focusing at the one incident in a rich suburb of Chicago, the numbers from the parade are a typical weekend numbers for Chicago and NONE of these laws have done anything to stop them. No NEW law will stop criminals from being criminals.

If passing a law would stop an action, then the President, Congress, etc., wouldn't need armed protection because the law would protect them.

Is access to guns easier now than before? No. Sears use to deliver guns to your house. Yes, you could buy a Thompson submachine gun and legally own it till in the 1930s when it was outlawed. People act like the AR-15 is magical military rifle, which it NEVER was. It has NEVER served/used in the military and was designed for the civilian market.

Will outlawing guns solve the issues? Nope, because mass killings are accomplished with multitude of devices.

In Illinois based on 2018 records, we had 309 people killed due to drunk driving. Locally, last year we had a family of four killed by a drunk drive. Why aren't we moving to outlaw alcohol? If it will save just one life. No one needs alcohol.

Obviously only those with CDLs should be allowed to drive. In Illinois we had 1,087 fatal crashed in 2020, so we shouldn't have anyone put professionals driving on the roads.

As you can see from my extreme examples, the reason we don't pull vehicles from everyone or ban alcohol is that we don't punish other people for something they didn't do wrong and we focus on the person and not the tool.

Regardless of which State you live in, there is a minimal requirements you must meet to buy a firearm from an FFL. Is it a perfect system? Yes, if you are honest and follow it. Yet, like every other law out there, if you want to break it, you can.

We are seeing huge spike in mental health issues. Is this due to legal drug use, illegal drug use, environmental factors? I don't know. Yet, it is a very real issue. The sad part, many are discouraged from getting treatment because of the stigma that goes along with it. There have been post on this forum topic stating that if a person has had mental treatment that they should not be allowed to by a gun. I will disagree. If they have went through successful treatment, then they could buy a gun. Instead of discouraging people from seeking treatment by saying if you get medical help we will take your right away forever, instead lets encourage people to get the help they need. Some people may never be able to buy a gun because of their mental condition, but lets encourage treatment verses discouraging.

I will end my lengthy post with the issue that some of us disagree on, but I still stand by the fact that the moral decline has led us to where we are at. It has been pointed out that this didn't happen overnight and took decades for us to get to this point, which I fully agree. Our society has made many changes for the good, but it also has made changes for the bad. You don't destroy moral values overnight, you don't restore moral values overnight either.

Yes, I'm a Christian and by no means a perfect one. Contrary to people thinking I'm pushing the Christian values, it is a moral value that I'm talking about. Lets start out with the simple things, men standing up and giving their seat to a lady, opening a door for a lady, being respectful of others when we drive (which is a big one I need to work on), just to name a few. We start treating others how we want to be treated, it makes a difference. It isn't easy, but when you start seeing the other person as a person and not an obstacle, your value for them increases. As this increases, you are less like to want to do them harm and just maybe, your actions will help encourage them to make the next right choice and help them see the values in others.

 

[D2Cat]

Just out, the former PM of Japan has been shot. It's been 90 years since a Japanese PM has been shot and the gun laws in Japan are as strict as anyplace in the world.

So if gun laws are effective how does this happen? Here's an overview from someone in Japan.



ティムコ・ヲ・カイーノ・カイカイ3世
6 hours ago

I'm writing this here because the information doesn't seem to have been compiled.
・Perpetrator arrested at scene, no other injuries, weapon recovered by police.
・The weapon looked a homemade shotgun (probably a horizontal double-barreled shotgun with two pipes attached to a wooden base with duct tape).Police say it was a homemade handgun.
・The sound of the shots and the white smoke when fired suggest that the ammunition was not the same as that distributed in Japan.
・The first shot missed and the second hit him in the left chest.
・He was conscious at the time of transport, but went into cardiopulmonary arrest on the way to the hospital.He was given first aid on the spot by volunteer nurses and taken to hospital by helicopter.
・It has been reported that the perpetrators are former members of the Japan Maritime Self-Defence Force.