Guns...Times have changed...

[majorwager]

 

[radas]

You look up one website and you now know how the mental health system works in Illinois, yet you stopped at one spot and don't go through all the research. There is the FOID Act definition and then how the courts have defined it. The clinicians are given leeway when dealing with suicidal person. For example, a man loses his wife in a car wreck and he is talking to clinician and says I don't think I can live any longer with her being gone. The clinician has the ability to determine if the man is truly contemplating suicide and needs to be reported or if the man is just going through the grieving process.

"CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER" MEANS A PERSON WHO:
(1) communicates a serious threat of physical violence against a reasonably identifiable victim or poses a clear and imminent risk of serious physical injury to himself, herself, or another person as determined by a physician, clinical psychologist, or qualified examiner; or

(2) demonstrates threatening physical or verbal behavior, such as violent, suicidal, or assaultive threats, actions, or other behavior, as determined by a physician, clinical psychologist, qualified examiner, school administrator, or law enforcement official. (FOID Act, Sec. 1.1)

Looks like that FOID act aged like milk. Hate to bring another tragedy to light, but doesn't seem like this system is very effective, no?

July 4 parade shooting suspect slipped past Illinois "red flag" safeguards

The man charged with killing seven people at a Chicago-area July Fourth parade slipped past the safeguards of an Illinois "red flag" law designed to prevent people deemed to have violent tendencies from getting guns, officials revealed on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

 

[Flintknapper]

Looks like that FOID act aged like milk. Hate to bring another tragedy to light, but doesn't seem like this system is very effective, no?

July 4 parade shooting suspect slipped past Illinois "red flag" safeguards

The man charged with killing seven people at a Chicago-area July Fourth parade slipped past the safeguards of an Illinois "red flag" law designed to prevent people deemed to have violent tendencies from getting guns, officials revealed on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

His father co-signed his Firearm Owners Identification (FOID) card......! That is how this little freak was able to purchase the guns.

A few years earlier he had threatened to kill everyone in the immediate family. Police were called and 16 knives confiscated. NO complaint filed.

We don't need any more gun laws, we don't need any new restrictions. We need to stop raising misfit, outcast, freaks.

 

[Ridelght]

His father co-signed his Firearm Owners Identification (FOID) card......! That is how this little freak was able to purchase the guns.

A few years earlier he had threatened to kill everyone in the immediate family. Police were called and 16 knives confiscated. NO complaint filed.

We don't need any more gun laws, we don't need any new restrictions. We need to stop raising misfit, outcast, freaks.

Dead behind the eyes: Highland Park shooter's mugshot emerges (msn.com)
To support what you said Flint. Parents are Idiots in this case. Thier son needed help, now they lawyered up.

 

[Bmyers]

Looks like that FOID act aged like milk. Hate to bring another tragedy to light, but doesn't seem like this system is very effective, no?

July 4 parade shooting suspect slipped past Illinois "red flag" safeguards

The man charged with killing seven people at a Chicago-area July Fourth parade slipped past the safeguards of an Illinois "red flag" law designed to prevent people deemed to have violent tendencies from getting guns, officials revealed on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

You are correct, which proves the point that gun laws fail to work. Illinois and Highland Park prove this is a fact. Include Chicago and Cook County and you have the area with the strictest gun laws around and they fail every day.

The simple fact, laws only are followed by law-abiding citizens.

The FOID system at best is flawed and relies on individuals to be honest and follow the laws.

The anti-gunners will say we need more laws. How many laws before crime is stopped? Should we count how many laws the latest individual broke, only to prove laws don't stop crime, only punishes it and that is if you have prosecutors willing to do that, which you have to look no further than Cook County and see their approach and how well that is working.

The drug war has proven outlawing a product only makes it more valuable, so much so that States have started legalizing and taxing marijuana. If you want, go back further and see how prohibition worked.

The reality is that we have devalued human life. Watch the news and you see politicians screaming that you have the right to kill your baby. So, why wouldn't a mentally unstable person think it is okay to kill people, the politicians are saying it is alright.

Maybe if politicians and society would deal with the moral issues and stop focusing on the tool, a solution could be found.

Yet, in today's society of "it feels okay to you", it must be okay and you have no right to tell me what is okay mindset. This mindset is destroying our once great nation.

 

[Ridelght]

You are correct, which proves the point that gun laws fail to work. Illinois and Highland Park prove this is a fact. Include Chicago and Cook County and you have the area with the strictest gun laws around and they fail every day.

The simple fact, laws only are followed by law-abiding citizens.

The FOID system at best is flawed and relies on individuals to be honest and follow the laws.

The anti-gunners will say we need more laws. How many laws before crime is stopped? Should we count how many laws the latest individual broke, only to prove laws don't stop crime, only punishes it and that is if you have prosecutors willing to do that, which you have to look no further than Cook County and see their approach and how well that is working.

The drug war has proven outlawing a product only makes it more valuable, so much so that States have started legalizing and taxing marijuana. If you want, go back further and see how prohibition worked.

The reality is that we have devalued human life. Watch the news and you see politicians screaming that you have the right to kill your baby. So, why wouldn't a mentally unstable person think it is okay to kill people, the politicians are saying it is alright.

Maybe if politicians and society would deal with the moral issues and stop focusing on the tool, a solution could be found.

Yet, in today's society of "it feels okay to you", it must be okay and you have no right to tell me what is okay mindset. This mindset is destroying our once great nation.

WELL SAID !!!!

 

[radas]

You are correct, which proves the point that gun laws fail to work. Illinois and Highland Park prove this is a fact. Include Chicago and Cook County and you have the area with the strictest gun laws around and they fail every day.

The simple fact, laws only are followed by law-abiding citizens.

The FOID system at best is flawed and relies on individuals to be honest and follow the laws.

The anti-gunners will say we need more laws. How many laws before crime is stopped? Should we count how many laws the latest individual broke, only to prove laws don't stop crime, only punishes it and that is if you have prosecutors willing to do that, which you have to look no further than Cook County and see their approach and how well that is working.

The drug war has proven outlawing a product only makes it more valuable, so much so that States have started legalizing and taxing marijuana. If you want, go back further and see how prohibition worked.

The reality is that we have devalued human life. Watch the news and you see politicians screaming that you have the right to kill your baby. So, why wouldn't a mentally unstable person think it is okay to kill people, the politicians are saying it is alright.

Maybe if politicians and society would deal with the moral issues and stop focusing on the tool, a solution could be found.

Yet, in today's society of "it feels okay to you", it must be okay and you have no right to tell me what is okay mindset. This mindset is destroying our once great nation.

The law would have worked if the red flags were actually documented and acted upon (you did mention previously that they are taken very seriously in IL when I mentioned current background checks were trivial, at best) or if this individual had gone through a psych eval.

The values reflected in today's society are the byproduct of prior generations' values and the negative impact of social media instilled in today's youth. No hypocrite politician is going to drive a "morals and family values" change beyond promoting centuries old biblical teachings into law (as we see with the repeal of Roe v Wade). You cannot stop acts of terrorism occuring right now with "morals and values" teaching. Shifts in societal thinking don't happen overnight. Thoughts and prayers and good Christian values will not stop terrible people from obtaining firearms.

Attributing a woman's choice to abort a fetus for a variety of reasons that are neither your business or mine has no correlation to devaluing human life or granting permission to kill. The same pro-life party and fanbase wants nothing to do with supporting the child after it is born or provide means to prevent unintended pregnancies. Laughable.

 

[Bmyers]

The law would have worked if the red flags were actually documented and acted upon (you did mention previously that they are taken very seriously in IL when I mentioned current background checks were trivial, at best) or if this individual had gone through a psych eval.

The values reflected in today's society are the byproduct of prior generations' values and the negative impact of social media instilled in today's youth. No hypocrite politician is going to drive a "morals and family values" change beyond promoting centuries old biblical teachings into law (as we see with the repeal of Roe v Wade). You cannot stop acts of terrorism occuring right now with "morals and values" teaching. Shifts in societal thinking don't happen overnight. Thoughts and prayers and good Christian values will not stop terrible people from obtaining firearms.

Attributing a woman's choice to abort a fetus for a variety of reasons that are neither your business or mine has no correlation to devaluing human life or granting permission to kill. The same pro-life party and fanbase wants nothing to do with supporting the child after it is born or provide means to prevent unintended pregnancies. Laughable.

You and I will have to disagree on that.

 

[radas]

You and I will have to disagree on that.

I guess so, let's just sit back and take no action and pray it goes away.

 

[Bmyers]

I guess so, let's just sit back and take no action and pray it goes away.

I'm trying to be respectful of the forum guidelines. Remembering I'm on a tractor forum and not a gun forum or political forum I'm tempering my response.

Yes, topics outside of tractors do affect our ability to use and enjoy our tractors, we don't live in a a bubble. I appreciate the fact that the mods have allowed us to talk about this topic and discuss it because it affects us all.

What I will not due is pick a fight with you and attack you, going against the forum rules. I can make many crude and rude remarks like you, but that is more characteristic of those that base their decisions on their feelings and not on facts.

Instead, I will stop here trying to be mindful that this is a private forum and I'm able to use it at the owner's pleasure.

 

[Lil Foot]

Well said!

 

[Ridelght]

I'm trying to be respectful of the forum guidelines. Remembering I'm on a tractor forum and not a gun forum or political forum I'm tempering my response.

Yes, topics outside of tractors do affect our ability to use and enjoy our tractors, we don't live in a a bubble. I appreciate the fact that the mods have allowed us to talk about this topic and discuss it because it affects us all.

What I will not due is pick a fight with you and attack you, going against the forum rules. I can make many crude and rude remarks like you, but that is more characteristic of those that base their decisions on their feelings and not on facts.

Instead, I will stop here trying to be mindful that this is a private forum and I'm able to use it at the owner's pleasure.

That Sir is the difference and what is missing in todays society. The abaility to be responsible.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

re: The law would have worked if the red flags were actually documented and acted upon

possibly, but not written in stone. I can see a lot of abuse of the 'red flag laws'...
bottom line.... 'criminals do NOT obey laws'

 

[Ridelght]

I guess so, let's just sit back and take no action and pray it goes away.

With respect,This has bothered me since I read it. You are making fun of people who "Hope" things turn around, and have the belief in something more than just themselves with this comment.
As Greensville Jay says, people don't obey the laws any way. From afar it appears to me in this case his parents were too busy with selfies than in taking care of their son. He lost his life too when he took the lives of others.
Also, the constitution was not written on an Etch A sketch. We can't just dd things you want; remove those you don't like. For a group that precaches respect and tolerance for people to be unique. There seems to be a bit of Bias showing.
FACT There were red flags that were just ignored. FACT the kids father helped him get guns, knowing 9 months ago he threatened the family. FACT no one wanted the hassle then of getting him help.
Shameful to turn this into anything else.
I also read today about on July 1st a father committing suicide, then the wife kills her sons then herself. All very young, no guns involved. Sons were drowned, can't outlaw water.
Mental health is a big issue, support of families and friends should be a given.
Red or Blue politics on their own is nonsense. Let's be humans for once and help stop this stuff.
I hope I didn't break too many rules.

 

[radas]

With respect,This has bothered me since I read it. You are making fun of people who "Hope" things turn around, and have the belief in something more than just themselves with this comment.
As Greensville Jay says, people don't obey the laws any way. From afar it appears to me in this case his parents were too busy with selfies than in taking care of their son. He lost his life too when he took the lives of others.
Also, the constitution was not written on an Etch A sketch. We can't just dd things you want; remove those you don't like. For a group that precaches respect and tolerance for people to be unique. There seems to be a bit of Bias showing.
FACT There were red flags that were just ignored. FACT the kids father helped him get guns, knowing 9 months ago he threatened the family. FACT no one wanted the hassle then of getting him help.
Shameful to turn this into anything else.
I also read today about on July 1st a father committing suicide, then the wife kills her sons then herself. All very young, no guns involved. Sons were drowned, can't outlaw water.
Mental health is a big issue, support of families and friends should be a given.
Red or Blue politics on their own is nonsense. Let's be humans for once and help stop this stuff.
I hope I didn't break too many rules.

Not my intent, just tired of reading "thoughts and prayers" or suggestions to "reinstate values". None of these things have any framework or basis to work towards change. Are there concrete steps or processes that prayer for gun violence to go away or reinstating values outline? No, it's just a vague statement or counterargument to viable solutions.

I believe in a higher power, probably the same one you do, but this higher power gave us a complex mind that allows for critical thinking skills to develop tangible solutions to existing problems. Making open-ended feel-good statements does neither of those things besides distract from the point.

 

[radas]

I'm trying to be respectful of the forum guidelines. Remembering I'm on a tractor forum and not a gun forum or political forum I'm tempering my response.

Yes, topics outside of tractors do affect our ability to use and enjoy our tractors, we don't live in a a bubble. I appreciate the fact that the mods have allowed us to talk about this topic and discuss it because it affects us all.

What I will not due is pick a fight with you and attack you, going against the forum rules. I can make many crude and rude remarks like you, but that is more characteristic of those that base their decisions on their feelings and not on facts.

Instead, I will stop here trying to be mindful that this is a private forum and I'm able to use it at the owner's pleasure.

Rude remarks? Please. You've been playing the same game I have here - there's no need for the holier than thou act. Nobody's personally attacked you, but if you want to come across as victim, more power to you. I came back here to debunk your claim of IL red flag laws being more than adequate and eliminating any need for additional reform. Your reply was a jab at pro-choice crowd green lighting murder because it doesn't align with your religious belief - absolutely ridiculous. Unfortunately to the many victims of both tragedies, you couldn't be more wrong.

 

[D2Cat]

This ship (USA) is going off course. If principles and values are not instilled somewhere along the line and encouraged by people standing up to express them we will continue going off course.

 

[Fordtech86]

Wonder what the government gonna do once they fix all the world problems

 

[radas]

Wonder what the government gonna do once they fix all the world problems

I don't think there are any more middle eastern countries left to invade...erm..."fix"

 

[Ridelght]

Not my intent, just tired of reading "thoughts and prayers" or suggestions to "reinstate values". None of these things have any framework or basis to work towards change. Are there concrete steps or processes that prayer for gun violence to go away or reinstating values outline? No, it's just a vague statement or counterargument to viable solutions.

I believe in a higher power, probably the same one you do, but this higher power gave us a complex mind that allows for critical thinking skills to develop tangible solutions to existing problems. Making open-ended feel-good statements does neither of those things besides distract from the point.
[/QUOTE

Not my intent, just tired of reading "thoughts and prayers" or suggestions to "reinstate values". None of these things have any framework or basis to work towards change. Are there concrete steps or processes that prayer for gun violence to go away or reinstating values outline? No, it's just a vague statement or counterargument to viable solutions.

I believe in a higher power, probably the same one you do, but this higher power gave us a complex mind that allows for critical thinking skills to develop tangible solutions to existing problems. Making open-ended feel-good statements does neither of those things besides distract from the point.

Thanks for the reply. I agree 100 percent with this reply.
I dont know the answers but i believe if we all work together instead of finger pointing like the answers are black and white, we will do what Americans always have done. We will find common ground.