Fixing hole in side of block

[Ktrim]

Yes, I will be conducting these tests on the engines to solve issues and look for bigger problems

Engine with the hole in it: Next time I am fixing this engine, I can button it back up, and put pressure in the cooling system to see if the blow to the block caused it more damage than just the hole, and make sure she still holds water pressure

compression test: engine with 2500 hours and no hole in it: last time I had it running, I remember it sputtering off and I would have to hold the throttle to keep it running

I will do compression test on it to see the overall tightness of the cylinders



Meaning: if I put in new connecting rod bearings but leave the main bearings and NOT go through the comprehensive process of a overhaul, I am wasting time/money

(this is how I read this statement)

Honing/polishing: I did see the guy rebuilt this engine, youtube video in this thread, he polished and honed the cylinders/pistons himself, I plan on doing the same thing



Meaning: just because the area looks fine, doesn't mean that it is. In my case, that blow to the crankshaft might look like it did NOT damage the crankshaft, the damage could be hidden and could cause catastrophic engine damage again if I dont do the complete overhaul


(that is how I read that statement)



I made a mistake, the hours are about 2500, and the machine does look neglected/tough life

We will see what happens tomorrow once I tighten everything up, fix all the leaks

Once I get it running, I post closeup videos and sounds, and I do the tests yall tell me to do to check compression, valves, knocks, etc.

The only way to know what you can get away with doing is with micrometers. And in the case of the crankshaft taking the shot it did is to have it magnafluxed

 

[joesmith123]

Change of plan, there will be a cleaning detour before cranking on that 40 year old engine, with crud all over it

June 1, 2024

youtube.com

Video: I will hit the block with diesel, hit it with torch, hit all the crannies with wire wheel on drill, hit it with pressurized gasoline

Look at the crud build up in the rear exhaust port, that is on the outside, imagine the crud build up on the inside

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I realized something, my thought pattern:

"Wait a minute, you want this machine to do an amazing task and you cannot even respect it enough to clear out all its passageways?"

I feel I would be disrespecting the machine if I do not go through and clear out ALL the passageways, I'm talking the entire head, the cylinders, the pistons, the sides of the pistons where it could rub on the sleeve, I MEAN EVERYTHING, the bottom, all that stuff going on down there

In the pictures where I am pointing at the piston that went through the block: Look at the crud buildup on the sides of the piston, why would the engine function properly with all that sticky crud messing with its resistance? Moving thousands of times a minute. And

I do believe that the top of the piston is very important as well, that crud is sticky on one section, and with tremendous pressures and speeds, that will affect the explosion, the intricacies of the entire machine

Plan: clean the head entirely using gasoline, diesel, heat, air pressure, drill with rotating brushes, hone the cylinder walls, clean and polish ALL piston moving areas: the entire sleeve, I want to also push the pistons up, take them out, polish the entire piston assembly, polish literally everything I can

Another plan I'll be doing today: Take off the head, put it in a bucket of hot diesel, scrub it with brushes

Basically: Clear out all crud from every angle before even cranking on it

Ok, I go back now and take off head, and put in big bucket of diesel, and heat that bucket of diesel with the torch

I will take off all parts and put them in hot diesel and brush them, I will polish all those areas that yall mentioned

Basically: spend the next 20 hours cleaning everything I can without splitting the tractor

 

[RCW]

Joe - like others have said I respect your motivation to make it work, however you get there with advice from others here on OTT.

My hat’s off to you sir.

 

[Ktrim]

Change of plan, there will be a cleaning detour before cranking on that 40 year old engine, with crud all over it

June 1, 2024

youtube.com

Video: I will hit the block with diesel, hit it with torch, hit all the crannies with wire wheel on drill, hit it with pressurized gasoline


View attachment 129824

Look at the crud build up in the rear exhaust port, that is on the outside, imagine the crud build up on the inside

View attachment 129823 View attachment 129823 View attachment 129824

View attachment 129825
View attachment 129826 View attachment 129827
adfadfadsfasdfads View attachment 129828 View attachment 129829 View attachment 129830
View attachment 129831 View attachment 129832

I realized something, my thought pattern:

"Wait a minute, you want this machine to do an amazing task and you cannot even respect it enough to clear out all its passageways?"

I feel I would be disrespecting the machine if I do not go through and clear out ALL the passageways, I'm talking the entire head, the cylinders, the pistons, the sides of the pistons where it could rub on the sleeve, I MEAN EVERYTHING, the bottom, all that stuff going on down there

In the pictures where I am pointing at the piston that went through the block: Look at the crud buildup on the sides of the piston, why would the engine function properly with all that sticky crud messing with its resistance? Moving thousands of times a minute. And

I do believe that the top of the piston is very important as well, that crud is sticky on one section, and with tremendous pressures and speeds, that will affect the explosion, the intricacies of the entire machine

Plan: clean the head entirely using gasoline, diesel, heat, air pressure, drill with rotating brushes, hone the cylinder walls, clean and polish ALL piston moving areas: the entire sleeve, I want to also push the pistons up, take them out, polish the entire piston assembly, polish literally everything I can

Another plan I'll be doing today: Take off the head, put it in a bucket of hot diesel, scrub it with brushes

Basically: Clear out all crud from every angle before even cranking on it

Ok, I go back now and take off head, and put in big bucket of diesel, and heat that bucket of diesel with the torch

I will take off all parts and put them in hot diesel and brush them, I will polish all those areas that yall mentioned

Basically: spend the next 20 hours cleaning everything I can without splitting the tractor

Take the whole thing apart. Take it to a machine shop have it hot tanked. It's not that expensive.
Have them mic everything, hone,polish crank, if possible,have them do the head; valve job and plane if needed; then you put it back together. You can't just polish with a piece of Emory cloth and expect it to be true.
Couple hundred bucks will save you in the long run.

 

[joesmith123]

Take the whole thing apart. Take it to a machine shop have it hot tanked. It's not that expensive.
Have them mic everything, hone,polish crank, if possible,have them do the head; valve job and plane if needed; then you put it back together. You can't just polish with a piece of Emory cloth and expect it to be true.
Couple hundred bucks will save you in the long run.

I will entertain this idea, First I take off all I can and clean all I can, then I report back in the evening with pictures and observations

 

[Russell King]

@joesmith123 I suggest that you start a new thread that is only about the second tractor.

I think I see confusing things with pictures from both the abandoned (hole in block) engine and the second engine on the “better“ engine.

So sometimes I am not sure which tractor you are referring to.

You can certainly link both threads together in the “last” post here and the first post of the new thread.

And be sure you have a large fire extinguisher handy or use safer cleaning fluid than gasoline!

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I will entertain this idea, First I take off all I can and clean all I can, then I report back in the evening with pictures and observations

For the price of diesel, Propane, gasoline and such you could get a couple gallons of Zep purple cleaner and everything would be cleaned right up without the fire / explosion hazard!

And I get that you want to clean everything up.
But note:
The rings are shot, you can tell by the flash on the pistons.
Honing the cylinder liners sounds great but it's going to little for you, in fact it could make it much worse.
It really needs bored to size and oversized pistons installed.
The rings are shot, and polishing the sides of the pistons are going to widen the ring gap and make things worse.
You do know that the pitons rods and such are all directional and matched, so do not swap the direction of the rods, caps or pistons or their respective cylinders.
Looks like you've pulled the rods so you'll need new bearings.
New rings might help but it's pretty much slapping a bandaid on a cut that need stitches.

 

[joesmith123]

Bent part in the head, all of them are a bit bent

head before cleaning

Hit it with diesel, then 6 inch soft brush on variable speed polisher

Head with 600 hours, before cleaning

Holding the head down with implements to hit the port area with high speed wire wheel

Hitting both heads, in the area of high combustion, applying diesel using brush, hitting it hard pressure on 3000 rpm, removed all imperfections

Hitting the heads with pressurized parts cleaner

Heads after I hit them with parts cleaner

This is the head with 2500 hours: pitting, deformation, No matter how hard I hit it with the 6 inch wire wheel at 3000 rpm, did not get better than that, those heads are damaged

Head with 600 hours: way better, rods not bent

I'll use that head on the block without the hole in it

Next step: watch a video on how to further disassemble the head to clean the inside perfectly, make my way under the engine to push out pistons and hit those areas hard with diesel/polish/wire wheel

Closeups of the head with 600 hours after diesel, wire wheel, then parts cleaner

 

[fried1765]

View attachment 129861

Bent part in the head, all of them are a bit bent

View attachment 129862

head before cleaning

View attachment 129863

Hit it with diesel, then 6 inch soft brush on variable speed polisher

View attachment 129864

Head with 600 hours, before cleaning

View attachment 129865

Holding the head down with implements to hit the port area with high speed wire wheel

View attachment 129876

Hitting both heads, in the area of high combustion, applying diesel using brush, hitting it hard pressure on 3000 rpm, removed all imperfections

Hitting the heads with pressurized gasoline



View attachment 129866

Heads after I hit them with pressurized gasoline

View attachment 129867

This is the head with 2500 hours: pitting, deformation, No matter how hard I hit it with the 6 inch wire wheel at 3000 rpm, did not get better than that, those heads are damaged

Head with 600 hours: way better, rods not bent

I'll use that head on the block without the hole in it

Next step: watch a video on how to further disassemble the head to clean the inside perfectly, make my way under the engine to push out pistons and hit those areas hard with diesel/polish/wire wheel

View attachment 129877 View attachment 129878

Closeups of the head with 600 hours after diesel, wire wheel, then gasoline

IMHO, using "pressurized gasoline" on ANYTHING, is a horrible idea!
Get a BIG life insurance policy,...... for the benefit of your family members!

 

[joesmith123]

It really needs bored to size and oversized pistons installed.
The rings are shot, and polishing the sides of the pistons are going to widen the ring gap and make things worse.

I am listening

Current plan: Take everything apart, clean everything, rig it back up enough to do pressure test, then decide next step

You do know that the pitons rods and such are all directional and matched, so do not swap the direction of the rods, caps or pistons or their respective cylinders.

I understand: when I push up the pistons, do not mismatch them in any way, keep all the parts together and in the same orientation

Looks like you've pulled the rods so you'll need new bearings.

Yes, I will be getting new connecting rod bearings for all the pistons

New rings might help but it's pretty much slapping a bandaid on a cut that need stitches.

Im listening: once I do the pressure test, then I decide the oversized piston route

next few days: Take off front axle, remove oil pan, hit the entire top of the block with wire wheel and diesel, polish the sleeves, push out all the pistons, polish the pistons, put the pistons back in, put in the new connecting rod bearings on all the pistons, then put it back together enough to do the pressure test

Tonight, I'll watch videos on how people rebuild heads, I forget how the head comes apart, something with the spring, I'll figure it out

,have them do the head; valve job

Yes I will do what ktrim is suggesting myself (if its possible)

 

[D2Cat]

Partner, I think you just enjoy work, especially dirty work!!!

Then you're going to put it all back together and then SEE if the engine is OK?

 

[joesmith123]

Partner, I think you just enjoy work, especially dirty work!!!

Then you're going to put it all back together and then SEE if the engine is OK?

Not gonna put it back together to use the machine, just put the engine components back together enough to do the the pressure test, I am only in diagnostic mode now, I will not run engine/machine until engine is safe from top to bottom

What I am imagining: Take everything off, clean everything, then only put the components back on that will be enough to do the compression test (head with all its components, and the oil pan, leave the starter on it)

What I wont put back on: water pump, radiator, front axle, all that stuff on the front, brackets, battery holders, etc



Put compression gauge where the glow plugs go, connect starter to battery, build up pressure, take videos and then we figure it out if its bad enough to need overhaul (split tractor, take out big crankshaft, change main bearings, do that thing that wolf said with the honing/oversized pistons)

I did see oversized pistons for this engine on messick

My theory: rebuilding the head and making sure it is functioning perfectly, will eliminate most of the problems

 

[PaulL]

Is there potential to mix and match parts between the two engines? Best parts of both, plus some new parts for the things NIW suggests.

 

[joesmith123]

Is there potential to mix and match parts between the two engines? Best parts of both, plus some new parts for the things NIW suggests.

Yes, that head, the on the right in the photos, is from the engine with the hole in it

Head from engine with 2500 hours: it looks damaged, I dont think those valves were closing/opening properly, and it caused permanent damage to the head

I'll be taking many parts from the 600 hour tractor to put onto the 2500 hour tractor, since the block without the hole is the 2500 hour tractor

The only new parts to get is gonna be the connecting rod bearings, they are listed as "metal bridge" or "crankpin" on messick

Everything else is cleaning/polishing

Maybe with the clean head, and new connecting rod bearings, all the components TIGHT onto one another, no leaks in the injectors, the engine will have good pressure enough to not need a overhaul

That is my hope, we will figure it out

 

[PaulL]

Yes, that head, the on the right in the photos, is from the engine with the hole in it

Head from engine with 2500 hours: it looks damaged, I dont think those valves were closing/opening properly, and it caused permanent damage to the head

I'll be taking many parts from the 600 hour tractor to put onto the 2500 hour tractor, since the block without the hole is the 2500 hour tractor

The only new parts to get is gonna be the connecting rod bearings, they are listed as "metal bridge" or "crankpin" on messick

Everything else is cleaning/polishing

Maybe with the clean head, and new connecting rod bearings, all the components TIGHT onto one another, no leaks in the injectors, the engine will have good pressure enough to not need a overhaul

That is my hope, we will figure it out

I think NIW suggested a rebore and oversize pistons? That was on the 2500 hour short block?

 

[joesmith123]

I think NIW suggested a rebore and oversize pistons? That was on the 2500 hour short block?

Rebore/oversized piston: Both engines probably need that done to make them perfect, and I will go this route if:

Once I clean and polish everything, tighten all fittings, and the pressure test shows that there is lots of pressure being lost in the combustion chamber and it is not suitable enough to run the engine, then:

I will look into rebore and oversized pistons

Something like that is minimum 2-3 thousand dollars I am guessing

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

The valves in the head are super easy, push the spring down with the valve held up and remove the two keepers, then the valve will come out.

 

[Runs With Scissors]

View attachment 129861

Bent part in the head, all of them are a bit bent

View attachment 129862

head before cleaning

View attachment 129863

Hit it with diesel, then 6 inch soft brush on variable speed polisher

View attachment 129864

Head with 600 hours, before cleaning

View attachment 129865

Holding the head down with implements to hit the port area with high speed wire wheel

View attachment 129876

Hitting both heads, in the area of high combustion, applying diesel using brush, hitting it hard pressure on 3000 rpm, removed all imperfections

Hitting the heads with pressurized gasoline



View attachment 129866

Heads after I hit them with pressurized gasoline

View attachment 129867

This is the head with 2500 hours: pitting, deformation, No matter how hard I hit it with the 6 inch wire wheel at 3000 rpm, did not get better than that, those heads are damaged

Head with 600 hours: way better, rods not bent

I'll use that head on the block without the hole in it

Next step: watch a video on how to further disassemble the head to clean the inside perfectly, make my way under the engine to push out pistons and hit those areas hard with diesel/polish/wire wheel

View attachment 129877 View attachment 129878

Closeups of the head with 600 hours after diesel, wire wheel, then gasoline

Hold on one second..........Is that really "gasoline" being sprayed in that video?

 

[GeoHorn]

I’m impressed with how Clean the failed engine is Inside. Was this engine steam (or otherwise) cleaned for the pics?
How many hours on it before it failed..?
Risking a hijack… what oil was used?

 

[joesmith123]

I’m impressed with how Clean the failed engine is Inside. Was this engine steam (or otherwise) cleaned for the pics?
How many hours on it before it failed..?
Risking a hijack… what oil was used?

I hit it with parts cleaner using airless sprayer

Hours before it failed: 600

Oil was in the engine when it failed