Traded my L2501 HST for a Kioti DK4210SE

[Rdrcr]

My humble opinion (again, from this product to product only perspective), I think Kioti has a better product than Kubota. As good or better quality, fit & finish, and features.

Having operated and cross-shopped both manufactures, I couldn't disagree more. IMHO, the quality, fit and finish of the Kubota surpasses the Kioti products.

Mike

 

[mcmxi]

Having operated and cross-shopped both manufactures, I couldn't disagree more. IMHO, the quality, fit and finish of the Kubota surpasses the Kioti products.

Mike

Quality is hard to measure when comparing tractors since it might take a while before the quality reveals itself. Fit and finish are immediately apparent as are the features in each model.

Competition is good since we all benefit from manufacturers trying to out do each other.

 

[Goz63]

I take the lift capacity with a grain of salt. It is not just the hydrolics but the weight of the tractor and the rear ballast. I saw Noel Messick take an L2501 that has a lift capacity of 1.1k or so and weight down the back end left over 1.8k to 3/4 max height. Hydrolocs did it just fine when the weight and ballast were begged up.

 

[nota4re]

I saw Noel Messick take an L2501 that has a lift capacity of 1.1k or so and weight down the back end left over 1.8k to 3/4 max height. Hydrolocs did it just fine when the weight and ballast were begged up.

Hydraulic lift capacity has NOTHING to do with weight and ballast - nothing at all. It is what it is and it is a function solely of the geometry of the lifting mechanism and the capability of the hydraulics - piston diameter, pressure, etc.

Lifting safely is another story - and it is where weight an ballast are very important.

The L2501 is rated at 1131 at the pivot pin and what it can lift will be LESS than that when you subtract the weight of the bucket (or pallet forks) AND you make the reduction calculations for the weight leveraged out over the front pivots. Show me a L2501 that will lift 1800 lbs, and I'll show you an L2501 that has one helluva lot of modifications.

 

[Motronic]

Quality is hard to measure when comparing tractors since it might take a while before the quality reveals itself. Fit and finish are immediately apparent as are the features in each model.

Competition is good since we all benefit from manufacturers trying to out do each other.

Certain aspects of quality are immediately apparent, especially if you're doing an assembly or wrenching on something. Or even give it a good look over in a lot of situations.

It's not hard to know what parts and materials are of good quality in many, many situations especially when you're looking at something like a tractor that has a pile of bits out of a parts bin that were not made by the manufacturer but just purchased to their specifications. Those specifications are always some mix of quality and price point.

Edit to be clear: I don't have a horse in this race. I have no Kioti dealers anywhere nearby and have never even seen a Kioti around here. But I have had a Mahindra and if you want to tell me that someone with any kind of experience can't pick apart the quality difference of a Mahindra vs a Kubota just by eye I'm going to tell you you've got zero experience with repairing a tractor.

 

[mcmxi]

Certain aspects of quality are immediately apparent, especially if you're doing an assembly or wrenching on something. Or even give it a good look over in a lot of situations.

It's not hard to know what parts and materials are of good quality in many, many situations especially when you're looking at something like a tractor that has a pile of bits out of a parts bin that were not made by the manufacturer but just purchased to their specifications. Those specifications are always some mix of quality and price point.

Edit to be clear: I don't have a horse in this race. I have no Kioti dealers anywhere nearby and have never even seen a Kioti around here. But I have had a Mahindra and if you want to tell me that someone with any kind of experience can't pick apart the quality difference of a Mahindra vs a Kubota just by eye I'm going to tell you you've got zero experience with repairing a tractor.

I've only owned Kubota tractors so you're right ... I have no experience repairing tractors.

But as for quality, something can look like quality and even feel like it but internally it's far from it. I deal with this all the time as a mechanical engineer in the firearms industry. I'm currently in the middle of a 10,000 round test to determine if a specific part is up to the task. It's amazing what you discover in these kinds of tests.

I took a 3-week blacksmithing class last year and some of the tools we made looked like garbage but were incredibly strong. Looks can be deceiving. Some might think that the loader mounting brackets on my MX6000 look like crap too.

 

[Motronic]

I've only owned Kubota tractors so you're right ... I have no experience repairing tractors. But as for quality, something can look like quality and even feel like it but internally it's far from it. I deal with this all the time as a mechanical engineer in the firearms industry. I'm currently in the middle of a 10,000 round test to determine if a specific part is up to the task. It's amazing what you discover in these kinds of tests.

That's great, but not really applicable to parts bin machines where you can easily look at things as simple as what type of hose, fittings and quick disconnects they use. I can go through an exhaustive list of "what comes off the parts bin" but it's really not relevant here. Just know your limitations based on your own experience.

 

[Goz63]

Hydraulic lift capacity has NOTHING to do with weight and ballast - nothing at all. It is what it is and it is a function solely of the geometry of the lifting mechanism and the capability of the hydraulics - piston diameter, pressure, etc.

Lifting safely is another story - and it is where weight an ballast are very important.

The L2501 is rated at 1131 at the pivot pin and what it can lift will be LESS than that when you subtract the weight of the bucket (or pallet forks) AND you make the reduction calculations for the weight leveraged out over the front pivots. Show me a L2501 that will lift 1800 lbs, and I'll show you an L2501 that has one helluva lot of modifications.

You watch the Messick video and tell me what extensive mods were. According to Neil it was stock.

 

[mcmxi]

That's great, but not really applicable to parts bin machines where you can easily look at things as simple as what type of hose, fittings and quick disconnects they use. I can go through an exhaustive list of "what comes off the parts bin" but it's really not relevant here. Just know your limitations based on your own experience.

I'm just saying that appearance isn't always a reliable indicator of quality. That's all.

 

[Motronic]

I'm just saying that appearance isn't always a reliable indicator of quality. That's all.

I'm not talking about merely appearance, so I guess we agree.

 

[nota4re]

You watch the Messick video and tell me what extensive mods were. According to Neil it was stock.

I DID find and watched the video I believe you are referencing. In the test where he is getting the 1800lb number, he is combining both the lift AND curl cylinders - so you basically have twice the number of cylinders functioning. The curl cylinders are smaller but have a significant mechanical (leverage) advantage in the way he has constructed to test (pulling against a fixed chain). Essentially, the test is meaningless - and is certainly not representative of lift capacity.

If you want to see true lift capacity, watch Messick's video where they test just that - and confirm pretty much identically what Kubota specs (which is 60% LESS than the comparable Kioti). You can see the video of the L3901 (same as L2501) HERE.

To the point of my original claim, the comparable Kioti has a lift capacity of 1800 lbs, more than 60% higher than the Kubota. This difference is VERY significant.

 

[jimh406]

To the point of my original claim, the comparable Kioti has a lift capacity of 1800 lbs, more than 60% higher than the Kubota. This difference is VERY significant.

As others have noted, I don’t want a tractor that can lift more than it can carry safely or is designed to carry. Kubota makes lots of tractors that can lift more than 1800 lbs. You could have bought one of them.

Your argument is like saying I bought a Hyundai large SUV because my Toyota small SUV can’t carry enough people. You are welcome to do that but don’t think your Hyundai is just as good as the Toyota. Also, don’t think the Toyota is poorly designed because you think it should have been bigger.

I hope you have good luck with your Kioti, but at the end of the day, it’s still not going to be a Kubota. Also, ok if that works for you, but you are at the Kubota forum. That means most here aren’t buying what you are selling.

 

[mcmxi]

I do think that Kubota tends to design products for longevity rather than impressive numbers on the lot. Kubota four cylinder engines are producing marginally more power than Kioti three cylinder engines so not working as hard to make power. They know how to design and build hydraulic pumps and yet choose not to increase flow rate to increase lift capacity although lift rate is more a function of flow rate. Regardless, they could increase the lifting capacity but don't. If you look at the Grand L 6060 with the external rear lift cylinders the numbers at 2,976 lb are very similar to the NX6010 and yet loader capacity is on par with the MX. This is a geometric issue, not a flow rate issue.

So high oil flow rates with engines running at the upper limits of performance vs. lower flow rates with engines running significantly below performance limits. I do prefer the latter as long as there's enough lift capacity to do what I need, which might mean stepping up a model or two, which is what I did moving from a BX25D to an MX6000.

 

[nota4re]

Your argument is like saying I bought a Hyundai large SUV because my Toyota small SUV can’t carry enough people. You are welcome to do that but don’t think your Hyundai is just as good as the Toyota. Also, don’t think the Toyota is poorly designed because you think it should have been bigger.

I think your orange-colored glasses are preventing you from being objective. I'm not comparing large SUVs against small SUVs - I'm comparing tractors that are identically in the same class/size. Head to head competitors. Also, you incorrectly insinuate that I am claiming the Kubota is poorly designed - I have never done that. So, if the only way that you have to make a counter-argument is to introduce analogies that have no bearing to the subject at hand, well then I guess you are just grasping at straws.

I don’t want a tractor that can lift more than it can carry safely or is designed to carry.

Great! That's why with the geometry, cylinder size, and flow capacity, that's all the L-series can muster. How long has it been since Kubota has updated this model???

So, along comes a competitor who has a more recent design, different FEL geometry, cylinders and flow and just smokes the Kubota's specs and your argument is that if you did that in your Kubota it would be un-safe or exceed the Kubota's design parameters? Well, if that's your argument, I'd say you're right - but it doesn't mean that it is un-safe or above the design capabilities of the new model.

 

[nota4re]

Kubota four cylinder engines are producing marginally more power than Kioti three cylinder engines so not working as hard to make power.

The models that we have been discussing/comparing have been the L2501 and maybe the L3901 - both of which have 3-cylinder engines with similar displacement and HP to the Kioti competitors. So, this "not working as hard" claim is not applicable.

They know how to design and build hydraulic pumps and yet choose not to increase flow rate to increase lift capacity. If you look at the Grand L 6060 with the external rear lift cylinders the numbers at 2,976 lb are very similar to the NX6010 and yet loader capacity is on par with the MX. This is a geometric issue, not a flow rate issue.

Yes, no doubt Kubota can and does build higher output pumps but as you accurately point out, lifting capacities are a result of a system which includes flow, cylinder size, & geometry. Increasing one without regard to the others can be detrimental.

So high oil flow rates with engines running at the upper limits of performance vs. lower flow rates with engines running significantly below performance limits.

Nice generic statement.... but is applicable at all to the discussion at hand? It sounds like you are trying to say that Kubota's have better engineered longevity because they run lower flow rates and therefore keep their engines "significantly below performance limits" whereas Kubota competitors are running their engines at the upper limits or performance and therefore are compromising longevity?

Seriously? Maybe you can provide some specs of directly comparable models where this is even remotely true? Sheesh!

For the record, I'm NOT saying anything BAD about the Kubota's and I have done nothing but praise their well-deserved reputation as well as the mature dealer network. These two very important attributes can alone be the justification to select a Kubota over other models. Kioti, in particular, does not have the same reputation as Kubota - nor do they have the mature dealer network. However, when comparing the respective products head to head, there are areas where Kioti has specs that are significantly better than the comparable (price, size, segment) Kubota. Is this Kubota-bashing? I don't think so. When a spec is better in another tractor, does it mean the other tractor is un-safe, poorly engineered, or running their engines at the upper limits of performance? I don't think so.

 

[mcmxi]

The models that we have been discussing/comparing have been the L2501 and maybe the L3901 - both of which have 3-cylinder engines with similar displacement and HP to the Kioti competitors. So, this "not working as hard" claim is not applicable.

I thought you chose the DK4210SE over the L4060 which according to you was the comparable Kubota model shown in your spreadsheet i.e. a 3 cylinder 1.8L engine compared to a 4 cylinder 2.4L engine.

I also find it interesting that Kioti uses the same KL5521 loader on four models ranging from 42 hp to 60 hp. Kubota has two loader models over that range.

Kioti seems to offer great value for money but that difference in cost isn't just down to the name. I'd like to know what the actual differences are.

 

[nota4re]

I thought you chose the DK4210SE over the L4060 which according to you was the comparable Kubota model shown in your spreadsheet i.e. a 3 cylinder 1.8L engine compared to a 4 cylinder 2.4L engine.

Indeed, I would see these models as competitors - the Kioti with a 3-cyl 1.6 and the Kubota with a 4-cyl 2.4. I don't know the heritage of either engine to be able to make an informed decision about which may be more stressed - but I would agree with you that everything else being equal, I would prefer the larger displacement.

When I upgraded from the L2501 to the DK4210SE, people here rightfully said it was an unfair comparison because the two machines aren't really in the same class and are not, typically head to head competitors. I was pointing out that when we DO compare head to head with the L2501 thru L3901, the in-same-class competitor in the Kioti line-up would be the CK series where the large disparity in lift capacities is also present. I fear that readers will think that I believe lift capacity is the do-all end all of tractor comparisons - but this isn't true. For *MY* decision/needs/uses, lift capacity IS very important and other people may PROPERLY weigh other factors higher. Legitimate factors like brand reputation, dealer location/knowledge, parts availability, etc. TOTALLY VALID. It just doesn't mean that people have to get their panties in a twist when a competitor has one spec or another higher than the sacred Kubota!

 

[mcmxi]

@nota4re, it's all good. I sincerely hope that you have years of happy ownership with your Kioti and certainly wish the same for myself. The "guy in a shed" up here mentioned that there are plans to develop a large dealership in the Flathead which would be good. I'd like to check out other Kioti models without having to drive 4 hours.

All this talk of lift capacity is relevant to me. I tried to pick up a large boulder last week using the new grapple but I couldn't get it. I'm not sure if it's the lack of friction between the grapple and rock or a lack of lift capacity.

 

[BadAndy]

Regarding Kioti/Kubota pricing… from my sub-compact buying experience they were very close… I ended up going with Kubota 23s tlb over the Kioti CS2220 tlb. It was only a 100.00-200.00 difference in price, also for me I was more comfortable with the Kubota sales man, The Kioti sales man turned me off from the dealership (but that can happen at ANY dealership incl Kubota)… anywho, that’s my two cents from a sub-compact perspective in Canada.

 

[sheepfarmer]

I called Mich Iron & E about a Kioti and the guy wasn't rude, he just wasn't interested. Referred me to other Dealers. Ones I'm not so sure will be around when/if warranty time comes around. And all I said was good morning, do you have a Cx2510 in stock? His website says he does but I didn't bring that up. I don't believe websites for 2 seconds. Even the Kubota ones. They advertise things they don't have without conscience. I'm an hour drive away and I have Ram Cummins, so pulling a trailer isn't a problem for me if he doesn't want to deliver it, I can pull it like it isn't even back there. Didn't even get that far -- Not interested. Go away. That was the message, loud and clear. Didn't want to talk about when, if, maybe.... Nothing. Don't bother me

That's what I run into with a lot of these small fry dealers; apathy. Not ignorance, apathy. They just don't seem to care. I could even tolerate some ignorance if it was attached to some 'I care'. But, nope. Don't care. Leave me alone so I can eat my tuna fish sandwich.

You walk into a Deere Dealer and you get attention. You call them, you get someone to talk to. While the Kubota tractor is, IMO, a much better unite for LESS money, the Dealers are lacking from what I've seen. It's like Amateur Hour with the ones I've had brief dealings with.

I keep telling myself that I'm not marrying these people, I just want to buy a tractor from them. Don't care if I ever see them again.....

Unless I need service and/or parts. And if I can't get their attention when I want to give them $25,000 dollars of my money, what's it going to be like when I need warranty work or a $20 part?

And it's not just now, during the shortage/pandemic/whatev. They were like that before when I interacted with them.

I don't like Deere products, they're overpriced (bigly) and frankly, almost always not as good, but I'll tell you this, their Dealers are much more on the ball.

So if somebody knows a Kubota Dealer in Southern Michigan (between Lansing and Grand Rapids) I'd like to hear their name

There are several Kubota dealerships in the Lansing area that I can recommend: Deer Creek Sales near Williamston and Aldermans in Lennon. Call Todd at Aldermans, you will get as good service as they can provide. All the dealerships seem to be having trouble getting enough techs and inventory. The last time I talked to Todd he was busting his chops trying to find a tractor from another dealer for a customer. Last week the folks at Deer Creek who have serviced my old Ingersoll for many years, said it might take a month to get it fixed. They picked it up in less than a week, and called in two days with a diagnosis, and parts ordered, but that could be a sticking point. They also said that they were so swamped they were not committing service to people that had not bought a tractor from them.

There are other Kubota dealerships around, some I've heard negative things about, but no personal experience. Went to a Deere dealership and got a cold shoulder, but another further away my neighbor deals with has given her good service.

It just depends on the salesman and maybe even the day.