tco is total cost of ownership
cng=compressed natural gas
gge=gallon of gas equivalent (how they measure cng)
lng=liquefied natural gas
Status of B3350 Regen Issue?
- Thread starter welnet
- Start date
cng=compressed natural gas
gge=gallon of gas equivalent (how they measure cng)
lng=liquefied natural gas
Bingo, lugbolt, and I agree in all regards.
I, too, have been predicting the reemergence of gasoline powered industrial engines, including farm tractors.
Problem, is, manufacturers are hesitant to invest in expensive development projects that can be turned into waste with the stroke of a bureaucrats pen.
SDT
Though I had promised to keep folks up to date regarding my 3350, I have forgotten to do so in this particular thread.
Tractor was in the shop for 12 solid weeks this summer. Eventually, Kubota decided that the OT shut downs, which occurred EVERY time that the engine regenerated, were caused by an over fueling condition, itself caused by engine oil getting past the intake valve seals. I was told that even a very small amount of oil will cause this.
Kubota sent the cylinder head out for "rebuild" and replaced the reformer, DPF, etc. I've had the tractor back for a couple of months now but have not put enough time on it to cause a regen. Whether or not it shuts down upon the next regen, I am convinced that the DPF system as used on the 3350 cannot be made reliable, long term, and that the issue will return, in the foreseeable future.
FWIW: The tractor is a 2018 (fully up to date) and currently has about 46 hours on the clock.
I will use it little over the winter so do not expect a regen until Spring 2020.
SDT
I'd be asking them to trade it on the new replacement model coming out shortly. If small amounts of oil can cause this much trouble, what is going to happen when these engines start to age and oil starts to get by the rings? It seems like a disaster is awaiting owners down the road with this problematic model.
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I don’t believe the gas engine will be safe for very much longer either though (maybe more so on the automotive side). Gasoline particulate filters are already being used on some vehicles, mostly in Europe and China I believe. In a recent training class though we were told it is already in the works here, they just didn’t have a timeline.
So I figured I would give an update as this issue just recently became a whole lot worse.
After I got the tractor back in summer I used it to mow, etc, with no issues until about a month ago where it shut off after attempting to go through a regen. Same as before, it showed the regen light for 20 minutes or so and puffed some white smoke. It then started to beep and the parked regen light came on and then the tractor shut off for about 45 minutes. When it started, it went through a parked regen for an hour and 10 minutes.
Fast forward to last Wednesday. I dug a hole for a friend's underground propane tank. Ran the unit for 5-6 hours at 2,100-2,400 rpm. No issues.
He used it to back fill on Friday and texted me saying the machine was beeping at him with the attached picture showing the machine needed a parked regen. He said the machine had blown some white smoke and he thought it needed DEF. I called him and said to park the machine, put it in neutral and hit the left light on the dash to let it go through a parked regen.
He never called back so I figured everything was ok. When I picked the machine up on Saturday, the machine was beeping constantly with what appears to be the red check engine light on all the time.
My friend said that the button to the left that I told him to push was never lit up and didn't do anything when he pushed it. He said that was when it started to beep at him so he parked it.
An error code of 'ERR 21" also appears briefly in the hour meter when the machine is started. I checked the oil and coolant and all appeared okay so I finished backfilling and loaded it up.
I brought i home, took off the backhoe and loader anticipating the next step being either I take it to the dealer or they come to look at it.
So I called the dealer today (11/26) and they said that the machine is in a "stage 4" code or something due to improper regen or cancelling a regen too many times. They also said that if it goes into a "stage 5" that it is a $7,000 dollar repair and Kubota won't cover it.
They said to bring it in and they will see how bad it is.
He then went on about how they have tested my tractor and it always worked fine and then mentioned about the water in the fuel again. He said they had spoken with the engineers at Kubota and they confirmed this will cause the machine to shut down like I experience.
I am a very level headed person and am willing to give any business as much time as possible to resolve a problem. I am an owner of a sales/service company and deal with customers and problem machines all day long every day of the week. In this case, I don't think there is a resolution. The dealer is obviously at their wit's end and it is obvious they are beginning to push back to blame me.
Since I have given service the chance to resolve and don't believe it can be resolved, I requested that when I drop off the machine I would like to talk to management about this. I never pursued this in the past since like I said, I wanted to give them a chance to resolve.
I have a call in to my attorney to see what the next step will be if I don't get any satisfactory resolution.
Mike
After I got the tractor back in summer I used it to mow, etc, with no issues until about a month ago where it shut off after attempting to go through a regen. Same as before, it showed the regen light for 20 minutes or so and puffed some white smoke. It then started to beep and the parked regen light came on and then the tractor shut off for about 45 minutes. When it started, it went through a parked regen for an hour and 10 minutes.
Fast forward to last Wednesday. I dug a hole for a friend's underground propane tank. Ran the unit for 5-6 hours at 2,100-2,400 rpm. No issues.
He used it to back fill on Friday and texted me saying the machine was beeping at him with the attached picture showing the machine needed a parked regen. He said the machine had blown some white smoke and he thought it needed DEF. I called him and said to park the machine, put it in neutral and hit the left light on the dash to let it go through a parked regen.
He never called back so I figured everything was ok. When I picked the machine up on Saturday, the machine was beeping constantly with what appears to be the red check engine light on all the time.
My friend said that the button to the left that I told him to push was never lit up and didn't do anything when he pushed it. He said that was when it started to beep at him so he parked it.
An error code of 'ERR 21" also appears briefly in the hour meter when the machine is started. I checked the oil and coolant and all appeared okay so I finished backfilling and loaded it up.
I brought i home, took off the backhoe and loader anticipating the next step being either I take it to the dealer or they come to look at it.
So I called the dealer today (11/26) and they said that the machine is in a "stage 4" code or something due to improper regen or cancelling a regen too many times. They also said that if it goes into a "stage 5" that it is a $7,000 dollar repair and Kubota won't cover it.
They said to bring it in and they will see how bad it is.
He then went on about how they have tested my tractor and it always worked fine and then mentioned about the water in the fuel again. He said they had spoken with the engineers at Kubota and they confirmed this will cause the machine to shut down like I experience.
I am a very level headed person and am willing to give any business as much time as possible to resolve a problem. I am an owner of a sales/service company and deal with customers and problem machines all day long every day of the week. In this case, I don't think there is a resolution. The dealer is obviously at their wit's end and it is obvious they are beginning to push back to blame me.
Since I have given service the chance to resolve and don't believe it can be resolved, I requested that when I drop off the machine I would like to talk to management about this. I never pursued this in the past since like I said, I wanted to give them a chance to resolve.
I have a call in to my attorney to see what the next step will be if I don't get any satisfactory resolution.
Mike
Attachments
It's not just your dealer. Kubota is now pushing back on 3350 regen issues probably because it is costing them too much in warranty claims.
Frankly, I do not believe that there is any long term resolution to this issue.
SDT
Since emission related stuff is a federal mandate, I wouldn't be afraid to take this further if needed, but you'll need to have great documentation to support your claim. Besides a good lawyer, I'd contact the attorney general.
Also file a claim with your fuel supplier.
It's easy for them to claim water in the fuel as diesel is hydroscopic and will continually absorb moisture. They can always claim water is in the diesel and never be wrong. The important part is how much is too much and why isn't their fuel filter adequate. Ask them to quantify how much is in there. If water is getting past their fuel filter it is still a design issue on their part.
I feel sorry for anyone who owns one of these machines as it is clear Big K is trying to limit their losses on this one. Will you be willing to spend money on another new Kubota? If so, I can understand why they don't care.
Also file a claim with your fuel supplier.
It's easy for them to claim water in the fuel as diesel is hydroscopic and will continually absorb moisture. They can always claim water is in the diesel and never be wrong. The important part is how much is too much and why isn't their fuel filter adequate. Ask them to quantify how much is in there. If water is getting past their fuel filter it is still a design issue on their part.
I feel sorry for anyone who owns one of these machines as it is clear Big K is trying to limit their losses on this one. Will you be willing to spend money on another new Kubota? If so, I can understand why they don't care.
The B3350 sounds like the Navistar International Maxxforce of tractor world, LOL.
I'm surprised no one has figured out a delete for these B3350's yet?
If I had this much trouble with my new tractor I'd be figuring something out.
I'm surprised no one has figured out a delete for these B3350's yet?
If I had this much trouble with my new tractor I'd be figuring something out.
The commercial market for B3350 delete packages is too small to interest manufacturers, especially since such is illegal.
SDT
dirtydeed
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
B2650 BH77, U27-4R2, BX23TLBM, box blade, rear blade, flail mower, Stump Grinder
I was very interested in the B3350 when I was tractor shopping. That was the model I wanted. After visiting several dealers, they all refused to sell me one despite having several of them on their lots (both new and used). They told me that they ended up with the used tractors by the previous owner trading up to an L or down to the B2650.
It would seem to me that most of the dealers are willing to work with folks that have had some issues with the 3350. I'd be sure to try to work out a deal on another machine rather than put up with the endless run-around with problematic equipment.
I hope that you all get yours fixed, as you certainly have more patience than I would.
It would seem to me that most of the dealers are willing to work with folks that have had some issues with the 3350. I'd be sure to try to work out a deal on another machine rather than put up with the endless run-around with problematic equipment.
I hope that you all get yours fixed, as you certainly have more patience than I would.
The dealerships should be getting financial support from Kubota to make this right for the customer! This is a Kubota problem and the dealership is stuck in the middle.
I learned a lot today at the dealer. The tech that dealt with me was very knowledgeable on how the whole 3350 regen system works and the associated issues when it doesn't.
In my case, my tractor was in a stage 4 fault. This means my filter was almost completely clogged. He was able to do a forced parked regen and watched the entire process on the pc he had hooked up to be sure it completed correctly. He explained what the system is doing along the way.
He explained that my tractor has had all the upgrades and all the associated parts are working. This is what he found back in May when they had it for 5 weeks.
He did say that the system is very sensitive in that it requires certain inputs to be correct or it will either go into a parked regen or shut off as I have experienced. Temperature of the DPF and external contaminants in the fuel are 2 items that are variables that Kubota engineering has shown to cause issues.
While I think (and he agreed) that the system is too sensitive to a slight amount of water, he said that he has seen videos from Kubota showing a droplet (not a drop) of water that is in the fuel injected into the reformer system will be problematic. His solution was to replace fuel filter, which on my tractor has never been done. After they said I had water in my fuel, I inspect the fuel bowl and never see water. He changed mine and showed me about 1/8 ounce of water had collected in the bottom of the bowl, barely noticeable. His solution is to replace the fuel filter at least once a year in late summer.
The temperature of the DPF (this means the DPF temp has to climb at a certain rate over a certain period of time or it will fail) is crucial. He said that the snorkel on the air intake should be removed as it will allow the machine to ingest snow when blowing or plowing. Removing it entirely will not allow dirtier air into the system and will prevent the snow ingestion. He also said that even with the temperature gauge on the machine showing 3 bars (normal) that does not mean the DPF will be able to reach the required temperature in time to complete a regen.
He said Kubota has told them that the States with greatest temperature fluctuations have the most issues since the system is ambient air temperature sensitive. He recommended that in 'cold' weather, even if it is above 32 degrees, to use the bra. Obviously this needs to be monitored to prevent overheating as I explained to him that is what happened when I was blowing snow at 25-28 degrees.
He explained that he wishes, and has requested from Kubota, to permanently delete the cancel regen button since hitting it more than 2 times consecutively can significantly contribute to regen issues. He said it should only ever be used if the machine must be inside or in an unsafe area for a regen and cannot be moved outside. He also said he wished the system would not use a pressure sensor that senses when the system needs to regen, but rather a simple timer that regens a little every hour or two. He said other machines that have very simple filter systems do this and it works much better.
I explained to him and the assistant manager that all I want is for the system to work. I said I am technical by nature and think it is waaaay to complex to ask a consumer to know and understand. They both agreed but said they can't fix a system that is working properly and when they were done, they said the tractor is working properly.
During the process I had a chance to ask about how Kubota deals with units that are in for multiple DPF issues. They said Kubota feels at this point the system works and that the issues are related to customers not understanding the system. Even though they agreed that there are too many variables that can cause problems, i.e. small amount of water in fuel, outside air temp too low, etc. that Kubota has been denying warranty claims.
Even with all the knowledge they imparted to me to hopefully prevent further problems, I asked what happens when I do everything right and the system still has an issue? They both said that if they know a customer is following what they are telling them, then the dealership will work with that customer to try and get a resolution with Kubota. They both believed that the recommendations they provided will work.
I even floated the idea of potentially swapping it out for a 2650. They said they have heard of it but never had it happen in their dealership. They both said that I would be disappointed in the decrease of power going from the 3350 to the 2650 anyway.
I also asked when the replacement model is coming and they said it cannot be soon enough. They have heard 6 months to a year.
Being a business owner that has been in their shoes many times, I know they are trying to keep a customer happy all the while realizing it is an almost impossible task due to a problematic model. Not that the equipment is junk, just that it is not what anyone expected or were used to with prior models.
The entire Tier IV fiasco has kicked many a companies butt. I am not saying that Kubota shouldn't be forced to stand by or make good on a bad design, but they are in business to make money and as I am sure has been discussed, this is a mandate they were forced into before the technology was in their wheelhouse. Maybe they waited too long to 'get with the program' and didn't spend the time or money in R&D to have the technology that would work or maybe they thought what they had would work.
I made the decision to purchase the 3350 after reading about the issues they had and genuinely thought they had the bugs worked out. Obviously the bugs are inherent in the system and require a very long learning curve.
We will see how things go now that I have graduated from Kubota DPF 101. School of hard knocks.
Mike
In my case, my tractor was in a stage 4 fault. This means my filter was almost completely clogged. He was able to do a forced parked regen and watched the entire process on the pc he had hooked up to be sure it completed correctly. He explained what the system is doing along the way.
He explained that my tractor has had all the upgrades and all the associated parts are working. This is what he found back in May when they had it for 5 weeks.
He did say that the system is very sensitive in that it requires certain inputs to be correct or it will either go into a parked regen or shut off as I have experienced. Temperature of the DPF and external contaminants in the fuel are 2 items that are variables that Kubota engineering has shown to cause issues.
While I think (and he agreed) that the system is too sensitive to a slight amount of water, he said that he has seen videos from Kubota showing a droplet (not a drop) of water that is in the fuel injected into the reformer system will be problematic. His solution was to replace fuel filter, which on my tractor has never been done. After they said I had water in my fuel, I inspect the fuel bowl and never see water. He changed mine and showed me about 1/8 ounce of water had collected in the bottom of the bowl, barely noticeable. His solution is to replace the fuel filter at least once a year in late summer.
The temperature of the DPF (this means the DPF temp has to climb at a certain rate over a certain period of time or it will fail) is crucial. He said that the snorkel on the air intake should be removed as it will allow the machine to ingest snow when blowing or plowing. Removing it entirely will not allow dirtier air into the system and will prevent the snow ingestion. He also said that even with the temperature gauge on the machine showing 3 bars (normal) that does not mean the DPF will be able to reach the required temperature in time to complete a regen.
He said Kubota has told them that the States with greatest temperature fluctuations have the most issues since the system is ambient air temperature sensitive. He recommended that in 'cold' weather, even if it is above 32 degrees, to use the bra. Obviously this needs to be monitored to prevent overheating as I explained to him that is what happened when I was blowing snow at 25-28 degrees.
He explained that he wishes, and has requested from Kubota, to permanently delete the cancel regen button since hitting it more than 2 times consecutively can significantly contribute to regen issues. He said it should only ever be used if the machine must be inside or in an unsafe area for a regen and cannot be moved outside. He also said he wished the system would not use a pressure sensor that senses when the system needs to regen, but rather a simple timer that regens a little every hour or two. He said other machines that have very simple filter systems do this and it works much better.
I explained to him and the assistant manager that all I want is for the system to work. I said I am technical by nature and think it is waaaay to complex to ask a consumer to know and understand. They both agreed but said they can't fix a system that is working properly and when they were done, they said the tractor is working properly.
During the process I had a chance to ask about how Kubota deals with units that are in for multiple DPF issues. They said Kubota feels at this point the system works and that the issues are related to customers not understanding the system. Even though they agreed that there are too many variables that can cause problems, i.e. small amount of water in fuel, outside air temp too low, etc. that Kubota has been denying warranty claims.
Even with all the knowledge they imparted to me to hopefully prevent further problems, I asked what happens when I do everything right and the system still has an issue? They both said that if they know a customer is following what they are telling them, then the dealership will work with that customer to try and get a resolution with Kubota. They both believed that the recommendations they provided will work.
I even floated the idea of potentially swapping it out for a 2650. They said they have heard of it but never had it happen in their dealership. They both said that I would be disappointed in the decrease of power going from the 3350 to the 2650 anyway.
I also asked when the replacement model is coming and they said it cannot be soon enough. They have heard 6 months to a year.
Being a business owner that has been in their shoes many times, I know they are trying to keep a customer happy all the while realizing it is an almost impossible task due to a problematic model. Not that the equipment is junk, just that it is not what anyone expected or were used to with prior models.
The entire Tier IV fiasco has kicked many a companies butt. I am not saying that Kubota shouldn't be forced to stand by or make good on a bad design, but they are in business to make money and as I am sure has been discussed, this is a mandate they were forced into before the technology was in their wheelhouse. Maybe they waited too long to 'get with the program' and didn't spend the time or money in R&D to have the technology that would work or maybe they thought what they had would work.
I made the decision to purchase the 3350 after reading about the issues they had and genuinely thought they had the bugs worked out. Obviously the bugs are inherent in the system and require a very long learning curve.
We will see how things go now that I have graduated from Kubota DPF 101. School of hard knocks.
Mike
dirtydeed
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
B2650 BH77, U27-4R2, BX23TLBM, box blade, rear blade, flail mower, Stump Grinder
Mike,
That's a great, informative write up. Thanks for that.
I've also heard (from the dealers) that they require removing the air intake when blowing/pushing snow for that very reason. Perhaps that's why folks in more southern climes don't seem to have as much trouble.
That's a great, informative write up. Thanks for that.
I've also heard (from the dealers) that they require removing the air intake when blowing/pushing snow for that very reason. Perhaps that's why folks in more southern climes don't seem to have as much trouble.
I think if I went through all these headaches and Kubota would not cover all the costs, I would take the chance and experiment.
Don't remove anything, but just drill a small hole through the DPF medium so that it never senses an increase in back pressure thus thinking the filter is dirty.
And if that didn't work, oh well, but a new DPF and sell it while it still runs. LOL
Don't remove anything, but just drill a small hole through the DPF medium so that it never senses an increase in back pressure thus thinking the filter is dirty.
And if that didn't work, oh well, but a new DPF and sell it while it still runs. LOL
Hi Mike, thanks for that information it is really helpful. One reason that folks have so much trouble is that the Owner's Manual doesn't explain this well. With help from other L tractor owners I wrote up a how to for our tractors, the L60 and the L01, but the B3350 is more complicated, and I don't have any first hand experience. If you get yours running, would you consider writing up a procedure and posting it in the sticky at the top of the Tractor Operating forum here? My B2650 manual also has B3350 directions in it, but they are about as clear as mud.
My advice is to be obsessive compulsive about water. I just changed the water separator filter on my 3560 and there was a little water in it that couldn't be seen from the outside. I use a Mr Funnel Filter when pouring in new fuel, so I assume it was condensation over the summer. Don't store fuel for long. As far as the snow blowing, I would sure recommend a grille cover, it saves thawing out the radiator and other things that get coated. Keep a spare air filter on hand and check it even with the snorkel off. You can swap a wet filter for a dry one and take it in the house to dry out.
My advice is to be obsessive compulsive about water. I just changed the water separator filter on my 3560 and there was a little water in it that couldn't be seen from the outside. I use a Mr Funnel Filter when pouring in new fuel, so I assume it was condensation over the summer. Don't store fuel for long. As far as the snow blowing, I would sure recommend a grille cover, it saves thawing out the radiator and other things that get coated. Keep a spare air filter on hand and check it even with the snorkel off. You can swap a wet filter for a dry one and take it in the house to dry out.
Another idle thought, is that apparently running or heating up the reformer requires a lot of electricity, and I am wondering if someone is either running the heater or the AC and all the lights while snowblowing that even if the engine exhaust is warm enough that there isn't enough electricity being produced to successfully regen? I think they changed the alternators on some of the dpf tractors in cold climates like Canada, but not mine in Michigan. If your technician has any insight into that I'd be curious.
I have a friend who did that on his SVL90-2 He did it 5 years ago and over 2000 hr's later it is still working good and hasn't had one regen. I had to do a soot reset and a " forced regen " at the time to clear the codes but it has ran good ever since. Not that I'm recommending it though! Just sayin'!
The tech did mention that the regen system does create a large electrical load and that other accessories could pull enough to cause an issue. The higher output alternator is one of the updates Kubota installed on earlier models to address this. Newer models have it standard. Not sure of when they began making it standard.
As far as creating a checklist to help others to address how to be proactive to prevent problems and reactive on how to resolve them once they occur, I may do that if in fact what the tech told me works. Time will tell.
To be honest if these tractors are this sensitive to cold, water, etc. I am of the belief it should be Kubota that is coming up with the detailed instructions. Their engineers have shared the knowledge with the techs but there seems to be a disconnect where the knowledge isn't making it to the customers in an effective way. Is that due to a failure of dealers to communicate it or is it because the system is so complex and there are so many variables that no matter how much communication there is or how it is done the end user will inevitably have a problem.
I have seen this many times where a sub-system on an otherwise good product doesn't perform well in certain environments and situations. The manufacturer tries to resolve it with retrofits and many times they do improve it, but the problem is inherent in the design and to redesign the entire sub-system is not cost effective or in some cases even possible.
These retrofits can take time (and $$) and perhaps most of all a slice of humble pie, since re-engineering what your highly paid engineers already said would work doesn't. It also buys them time as well (which works in their favor).
The manufacturer then stands by their product and says they resolved the issue with the retrofits over the past XX years. If there are some end users who still experience problems it is their fault and they can upgrade to the newest model that was just introduced.
Not the best outcome for an end user, but a bad product is inevitable to occur a few times in the course of a manufacturers history. Especially a company as old as Kubota. How well they handle the fallout in the form of miffed customers and reputation is usually the indicator of a companies management belief system.
I think Kubota has done everything they feel they should have done and are now just trying to hedge their losses. I understand and have seen it before.
I bet they have spent more time and money on the next model to prevent this from reoccurring. Which is a good thing.
Mike
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