Skidding Winch Recommendation

[NCL4701]

Example of one of the routine problems.

Sample of some of the rigging I’ve been using.

We have about 70 acres, most of which is forested. I have probably 20 acres that includes Virginia pines, like those pictures, interspersed with other trees. Problem with the Virginia pines is they live about 75 years, the place was logged off about 75 years ago, so they’re dying out and falling into these hanging pick up stick messes. My SOP for dealing with them is to keep everything well back from them, hook to the butt end, and pull them from the bottom until they hit the ground, then at least get them out of the trails and anywhere people might wander. That works great but the length of pull is limited by how far I can drive forward so sometimes it works great and sometimes it’s kind of a logistical problem unless I take out a bunch of healthy trees to create a driving lane, which I much prefer to not do. The above tangle resulted in rerouting one of the trails because there’s just no good way to get to the back side with the tractor or even a redirect with a snatch block. Yes, I’m aware of the dangers of dealing with a mess like that. Been doing it for years. Just looking for something more efficient.

Another issue is skidding logs through the soft bottomed muddy creek cuts.

Final issue is we heat half of two houses with wood. We have plenty of wood, but it’s kind of wasteful when I have deadfall or storm felled trees that are perfectly good for firewood but they’re across a creek, down a slope a bulldozer couldn’t handle, or otherwise in unhandy places.

So I’m thinking a skidding winch might be worthwhile to address all three of the above problems, but I have no experience with 3 point winches. Plenty of experience with 4WD truck type winches and limited experience with cable skidders. I’m aware a L4701 isn’t a Timberjack and I don’t expect it to be.

What a L4701 is (as mine is equipped): bare weight about 3300lb, loaded R4 rears about 1000lb, loader about 1100lb, plus whatever is on the 3 point but a skidding winch would be on the ground when in use so I guess that doesn’t count. About 5300 to 5500lb depending on how much fuel is in the tank and whether my fat butt is sitting on it or not. PTO HP about 38.

Most of what I’ve looked at (Wallenstein, Hud-son Uniforest, Farmi) are in the 8,500 to 10,000 lb single line pull range. They seem to all be in the same price range of $5000 to $6000 for rope pull clutch (not remote). Not sure if that’s the right range or too much for that tractor. The weight isn’t a problem at all for the 3 point for any of them.

I would really like to be able to look at them, but that doesn’t seem to be practical. I know several here have them.

Any recommendations on brand, size, specific model?

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

I can only comment on what I own. I run a Wallenstein FX85 behind a Kubota L3301hst.
I think it is perfectly sized combo. Winch pull is 8,500 pounds single line. 165' cable.
At absolute full pull cable length, single line, full tractor rpm, it is almost capable of lifting front wheels off the ground (loader and bucket installed). If doing same with double line I would simply add ballast in the bucket to compensate.
I have mixed feeling about cable end being a crimped ferrule versus grab hook but have always found solution. I am not sure what I would order if both were offered.
Wallenstein chokers are fantastic quality.
After many many hundred pulls clutch feels like new.
Paint still looks like new.
I keep my cable lubricated and still like new as well.
Only real complaints would be lack of included chain saw holder, box for accessories like chains/pullys, and don't like how to fasten the furrule while transiting.

No hands on experience logging with a L4701 but thinking from my combo for your L4701stepping up to a FX110 would not be a problem

 

[GreensvilleJay]

From looking at your first picture, I see the need for forestry 'management'. Start close to home/barn and clear out 1/4 to 1/3rd of what's in that picture. You don't need a lot of trees to make a forest,but you do need healthy trees. Over 20 acres , it'd be a full time job for several years for a crew to just properly 'thin the forest'. Maybe consider a 50/50 deal with a 'firewood' service company as you heat with it. They make money, you get free heat. How many cord ( bush cord ) do you burn per year? If the trees can be milled into lumber, maybe a sawyer 'deal' can be made. You have to decide if it's just a 'weekend hobby' or if you want to 'work smarter, not harder'

 

[NCL4701]

From looking at your first picture, I see the need for forestry 'management'. Start close to home/barn and clear out 1/4 to 1/3rd of what's in that picture. You don't need a lot of trees to make a forest,but you do need healthy trees. Over 20 acres , it'd be a full time job for several years for a crew to just properly 'thin the forest'. Maybe consider a 50/50 deal with a 'firewood' service company as you heat with it. They make money, you get free heat. How many cord ( bush cord ) do you burn per year? If the trees can be milled into lumber, maybe a sawyer 'deal' can be made. You have to decide if it's just a 'weekend hobby' or if you want to 'work smarter, not harder'

Yes, there is forestry management needed, particularly in the areas where the Virginia pines are prevalent. Last year we entered a forestry management plan with the NC Forest Service so we do have a written plan proscribed by a professional forester. It’s a ten year plan with a variety of stuff to be done in various areas based on what is growing and going on in different areas as it’s not all homogenous.

So I have a choice when I retire at the end of the year. I could pay someone a stupid amount of money to do what needs to be done to comply with the plan (although of the three companies I have spoken to only one would even quote it due to difficulty of access and difficulty of terrain) or I can spend around 2 to 4 months doing it myself. I currently have most of the equipment to do it and I have the experience to do it. I don’t have a skidding winch, and I need one.

Edit: And admittedly I’m not a forester. Learned a lot dealing with a professional forester and I was quite impressed with the NC Forest Service spending many hours on our little plan for a very nominal price; likely not enough to cover their cost.

 

[animals45]

In 55 years of pulling trees with chokers of all kinds I have never had a crimp on a choker go bad on me . Some of my chokers were older than dirt when I got my hands on them & never any issues , cept gettin poked with rogue strands . I know they don't handle as much weight as a 3PT winch but have ya given any consideration to one of the " chainsaw winches out there these days . Ya can take them just about anywhere toss a sling around a tree & yer in business , or for some folks " bob's yer uncle " . I never had a winch I always used a snatch block or two on a tree or two . I have a couple of real long cables & used the tractor to pull the cable through the snatch blocks . With the pulleys ya up the mechanical advantage so a smaller winch may get ye by .

Lewis Winch 400 MK2

The Lewis Winch 400-MK2 is the most versatile portable chainsaw winch that can pull up to 4,000 lbs in a straight line, and up to 8,000 lbs using one Lewis Winch Snatch Block.

lewiswinch.com

animals45

 

[NCL4701]

In 55 years of pulling trees with chokers of all kinds I have never had a crimp on a choker go bad on me . Some of my chokers were older than dirt when I got my hands on them & never any issues , cept gettin poked with rogue strands . I know they don't handle as much weight as a 3PT winch but have ya given any consideration to one of the " chainsaw winches out there these days . Ya can take them just about anywhere toss a sling around a tree & yer in business , or for some folks " bob's yer uncle " . I never had a winch I always used a snatch block or two on a tree or two . I have a couple of real long cables & used the tractor to pull the cable through the snatch blocks . With the pulleys ya up the mechanical advantage so a smaller winch may get ye by .

Lewis Winch 400 MK2

The Lewis Winch 400-MK2 is the most versatile portable chainsaw winch that can pull up to 4,000 lbs in a straight line, and up to 8,000 lbs using one Lewis Winch Snatch Block.

lewiswinch.com

animals45

Interesting

 

[Motion]

I'm not keen on winches, you shouldn't be pulling from your three-point setup. If you're in the woods and try to use the winch you still need to rig the tree, you're trying to pull, then tie the tractor to a tree to keep from sliding., nope not me, if the tractor can't pull it the I just double block as necessary. I believe you can never have too much rigging. I've standardized on 5/16" chain and accessories and have over 200 feet in various lengths, grab, slip, double clevis and log chokers. 250' of 3/8" and 150' of 1/2" steel pressed eyes in one end and swivel locking hooks in the other, kept in Ridgid cable carriers. Snatch blocks in both fixed and swivel. Log skidding cable chokers with rings. Many chokers in different lengths and shackles. I have sets of log tongs but never use them. I prefer having a hammer strap on my draw bars, I drilled out the hole on the Kubota to 1 1/8" so I can use a standard 1" pin on my tractors.

 

[UpNorthMI]

I have a Farmi JL501 skidding winch, now renamed as their model 50. I did a lot of research and selected this brand about 5 years ago, I manage over 300+ acres of forest land and give it quite a bit of use on my MX5800.

the winch performs well and I’ve had no problem of any kind with it. I would not worry about mounting it to a L4701, there is a lot of pulling force, part of which is taken by the winch digging into the ground, I like the rope engaged clutch as I feel it is important to remain close to tractor / winch and be paying attention to what you are doing. The winch came with a snatch pulley to allow you to use other trees to guide the path of the logs, the line will automatically be released from the pulley when the end of the line gets to the pulley. This allows me to pull trees out from forestry paths that are 90 degrees from the pull direction.
I recommend getting some tips and tricks from online videos to start. No matter which winch you are buying they can all pull your tractor over, pay attention and stay safe.

As I searched my local market, Michigan 5 years ago I could not find any dealer who had any brand of winch in stock, prices were all full price, set up fees plus special shipping. The local Farmi dealer delivered it in person from a state away, fitted to my tractor, cut down the pto shaft and spent 1.5 hours training me how to use it, he did not charge me for delivery and was on a 2 day trip delivering 5 winches.

Farmi has a long history in skidding winches, the few landowners that I found that hadtractor winches mainly had well used Farmi units. The other brand I considered was Wallenstein but the dealers had to special order them and ship them, then prep them, this added nearly another $2,000 to the full price of the winch. I’m sure like everything prices have only gone up. Good luck making a decision, a winch sure makes life easier.

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

I'm not keen on winches, you shouldn't be pulling from your three-point setup. If you're in the woods and try to use the winch you still need to rig the tree, you're trying to pull, then tie the tractor to a tree to keep from sliding., nope not me, if the tractor can't pull it the I just double block as necessary. I believe you can never have too much rigging. I've standardized on 5/16" chain and accessories and have over 200 feet in various lengths, grab, slip, double clevis and log chokers. 250' of 3/8" and 150' of 1/2" steel pressed eyes in one end and swivel locking hooks in the other, kept in Ridgid cable carriers. Snatch blocks in both fixed and swivel. Log skidding cable chokers with rings. Many chokers in different lengths and shackles. I have sets of log tongs but never use them. I prefer having a hammer strap on my draw bars, I drilled out the hole on the Kubota to 1 1/8" so I can use a standard 1" pin on my tractors.

hmm... not my experience.

I have never had to tie my tractor to a tree to stop rearward movement during pulling. Stress gets transferred into the ground through the butt plate.

I put my tractor in neutral and brakes on when I winch. My thinking is no stress on HST/tranny is a good thing. Tractor barley moves backwards.

Vertical weight of winch sits on the ground when winching.

When power put into the winch the horizontal stresses transfers to the ground through the hing/butt plate. Maybe on the biggest pulls the tractor many move back maybe 1" until the butt plate digs into the ground. On rocky or frozen ground where butt plate cannot dig in then YMMV.

I would say using the backhoe places much many times more stresses on the same L3301 than the winch. Even ground engaging equipment would be worse. I would say the winch is relatively gentle of the tractors 3pt setup.

One of the main rules of use is to keep your pulls as straight as possible. I always make straight pulls. Now if you were making significantly angled pulls (which is frowned upon) this might make another story as butt plate design digging into the ground changes effectiveness. Maybe less effective in transferring pull weight into the ground and would likely introduce twisting forces on 3pt hitch. so all the warning about angled pulls should be respected. Same if ground was frozen or rocky where butt plate cannot dig in. Then winch maybe not right tool for those jobs.

Cheers.

 

[NCL4701]

Thanks for all the feedback (and any more that may follow).

The dozer blade butt plate on the skidding winch is one of the main reasons I am looking at skidding winches rather than fabricating a mount for a much cheaper 10K electric winch such as would be appropriate for truck self recovery. A simple 12V winch attached to the 3 point or drawbar would put 100% of the force on the tractor. No bueno IMO. Sharing the load with the dirt; much better.

Just buying one seems to be a bit of a project. Not in a huge hurry but not waiting on anything aside from sufficient research. As I expected, y’all are extremely helpful in that regard.

And yes, I have gotten by without one so far but I have a fair amount to do to comply with the NC Forest Service plan, it isn’t cost effective, or reasonable in my mind, to sit on my soon to be retired butt while paying many thousands to have someone else do it who will be in turn and burn mode causing quite a bit more collateral damage than I prefer.

So can it be done without a skidding winch? I pulled this tree out of our pond without a skidding winch so maybe depending on where it is.

But those of you who have done this sort of thing know this takes a pretty good while to set up if you’re doing any reasonable diligence before putting the hammer down on a full pull. With the double line pull, to pull 30’ of the tree onto the bank I have to drive 60’ in a straight line without scrubbing the line on trees, rocks, etc. I don’t have a great deal of places I can drive 60’ or even 40’ in a straight line. Even with all the room I had there it took three separate pull, cut a chunk off, grapple part of the trunk/limbs away, rehook, repeat to get the whole thing out. I think the above job would have been much more efficient with a skidding winch.

I also have a couple of these to cross to access 40 of the 70 acres.

That may not look all that bad but there isn’t a rock in sight anywhere in the two creeks and, as is common in pictures, it’s quite a bit steeper than it looks. The bottom is soupy sand on this one and soupy clay on the other. I was thinking with a skidding winch I could skid a log up to the crossing, release the winch clutch to drive the tractor across, then winch the log across after the tractor is back on solid ground. The Farmi W50R user manual even describes that process as a recommended use.

If I’m wrong about a skidding winch being the appropriate tool for such activities I would greatly appreciate one or more of y’all who have one correcting my faulty thinking before I blow a few thousand on the wrong tool.

Edit:
This is another example of a fairly typical thing where I have thought the winch would be helpful. This thing was hung up over a trail. I had enough clear space to pull it but the way it was hung, it had to be pulled opposite the direction I could get the tractor so one snatch block reversed direction and another doubled the line pull so I could break it off the stump instead of standing beside a dead pine under all sorts of pressure with a chainsaw. In this case, I had enough room to set up a pull to put it on the ground from a safe distance. I don’t always have that much room. And again, this took a while to set up. Seems like a winch would have been helpful.

 

[animals45]

There should be several plans for making a small log arch . Ive even seen folks make little dollys with wheels to strap on the butt of the log being dragged . I have a real pet peeve about dragging logs . I spent last week hauling in loads of base rock with my wife doing all the tractor work as I hauled base . She had the road look pretty darn good . I come home Sunday night & theres a nice sized gouge right down the center or our road coming from one neighbor straight into the other neighbors gate . It was obvious someone dragged something . So I drive up to the top of our mountain to load the last of this years firewood & look down to the last guys place & right there is a log sittin right where the drag marks stops .
SO my wife is talkin to the guy below us today & he said he didn't see anything , so he call's the guy that had the log sittin at his place & asked him if he drug a log down the middle of the road & he replys " no I don't have any equipment to drag anything " . Later in the day the guy where the drag mark starts cops to dragging the log & said he was gonna fix the road . SO now I have to bring in more base , cause the drag went through all the base & into dirt . Crap like this happens when my compactor is sittin on my motorcycle life with no motor . Like I believe someone mentioned , theres no such thing as too much rigging equipment .
animals45

 

[NCL4701]

There should be several plans for making a small log arch . Ive even seen folks make little dollys with wheels to strap on the butt of the log being dragged . I have a real pet peeve about dragging logs . I spent last week hauling in loads of base rock with my wife doing all the tractor work as I hauled base . She had the road look pretty darn good . I come home Sunday night & theres a nice sized gouge right down the center or our road coming from one neighbor straight into the other neighbors gate . It was obvious someone dragged something . So I drive up to the top of our mountain to load the last of this years firewood & look down to the last guys place & right there is a log sittin right where the drag marks stops .
SO my wife is talkin to the guy below us today & he said he didn't see anything , so he call's the guy that had the log sittin at his place & asked him if he drug a log down the middle of the road & he replys " no I don't have any equipment to drag anything " . Later in the day the guy where the drag mark starts cops to dragging the log & said he was gonna fix the road . SO now I have to bring in more base , cause the drag went through all the base & into dirt . Crap like this happens when my compactor is sittin on my motorcycle life with no motor .
animals45

Kind of agree. I sure wouldn’t skid one down our gravel road. Skidding on a dirt path, makes a big difference if the front of the log is raised off the ground a little rather than the front dragging and plowing a ditch on the way back to the landing. Once they’re in some semi-reasonable place I prefer carrying them like this. And if they’ve been drug through mud and sand they have to be washed unless you like sharpening saw chains. At least I wash them.

 

[animals45]

Back in the day before all my failed back surgery's when I dropped a tree I always cut it taller then a lot of folks do . I have hit so many rocks buried in the bark that I don't care if I get 2 less pieces of firewood by cutting them tall . When their tall like that ya have a lot more leverage for when it's time to get rid of the stump .
animals45

 

[jtrout141]

I'm running an FX90 on my LX2610. You would do fine with the FX85 on your tractor. Doubt you will have any regrets about the purchase. I looked at facebook marketplace for a few months but found this one for roughly half the price. Looks like you already have all the other hardware needed to make that winch work fine. They do have a learning curve to see what your tractor likes and doesn't. Can't give any feedback on taking it out on trails as I'm just pulling out from the edges of timbered ground.

 

[NCL4701]

Wife and I went on a brief road trip today to pick up a Farmi W50R from the nearest XPO Logistics hub. Mike with Northeast Implement (https://northeastimplement.com/) was very helpful. Provided detailed dimensions on the 50R and 35R (50R was clearly a better fit). Provided a quote that was substantially less than the Wallenstein FX85.

Didn’t have time to do anything past getting it off my truck and into a shop bay. Supposed to rain the next several days so should be a good opportunity to get it set up and make some sort of storage dolly for it.

Thanks to all who provided input!

(Will try to remember to post a couple pics when it’s all functional.)

 

[animals45]

SO are all these skidding winches , Capstan winches ?
animal

 

[NCL4701]

SO are all these skidding winches , Capstan winches ?
animal

In short, no.

In researching skidding winches I did run across one tractor mounted capstan winch: https://norwoodsawmills.com/product...ing-winch-for-tractors?variant=45330456805697.

Most of these (Farmi, Wallenstein, Hudson) are cable on drum type winches controlled by a clutch on the winch unit.

 

[animals45]

I have a old warn 10000 or maybe 12000 off my old 1 ton service truck , thinkin out loud bout can I loose all the cable & make a capstan winch out of it .
Don't want to hijack this thread , so I'll start one
thanks
animal

 

[NCL4701]

Now all I need is for it to stop raining for a couple of days so I can put it to work. That and make a dolly for it so I can take it off at some point.

 

[animals45]

looks like it belongs there , what's it weigh ?

animnal45