RPMs

[sheepfarmer]

Interesting that pretty much all the comments regarding how the dpf tractors MUST be run are from people who don’t own one.

Just to set the record straight, I have had a dpf tractor since 20 13. You do NOT have to run it WOT all the time. You do have to understand how it works, read the directions, and pay attention to your machine. The model I have allows you to monitor the dpf fill rate, and so you can tell how fast it is filling, and when a regen is due. Most of the fill is on cold startup, when it is warming up at half throttle, doesn’t take much more than 5 or 10 min to a couple bars. After that depending on use, the per cent full may not change, may go down, or may go up very slowly depending on use. It has auto throttle on it, so hand throttle sets lower level of rpm, and if in use is adjusted by the tractor according to need and speed set by “go pedal”. Drives like a car. When I mow with flail at pto rpm 540, or plow snow, the particles are burned off by passive regeneration. With my hobby farm use it regens about twice a year. For 10 minutes I must set the rpm at about 2300 rpm to start do a regen. So you can hate the EPA and try to justify it by saying that the new tier 4 tractors are not fuel efficient, but they are. According to Kubota they are set up to be fuel efficient at high rpm, and the common rail fuel supply is computer controlled. I think I remember that mine runs at 0.4 gal per hour? Too cold to go look.
It is clean. I like breathing soot free air.

They are expensive to fix if you do something stupid, and maybe even if you don’t. And there is a lot of stuff you have to have the dealer and his laptop. Maybe I am just lucky but so far no problems at all.

So like everything else there are pluses and minuses. But running WOT all the time is not one of the minuses. Except if you have the star crossed B3350 which does not have a common rail engine.

 

[NHSleddog]

Interesting that pretty much all the comments regarding how the dpf tractors MUST be run are from people who don’t own one.

Just to set the record straight, I have had a dpf tractor since 20 13. You do NOT have to run it WOT all the time. You do have to understand how it works, read the directions, and pay attention to your machine. The model I have allows you to monitor the dpf fill rate, and so you can tell how fast it is filling, and when a regen is due. Most of the fill is on cold startup, when it is warming up at half throttle, doesn’t take much more than 5 or 10 min to a couple bars. After that depending on use, the per cent full may not change, may go down, or may go up very slowly depending on use. It has auto throttle on it, so hand throttle sets lower level of rpm, and if in use is adjusted by the tractor according to need and speed set by “go pedal”. Drives like a car. When I mow with flail at pto rpm 540, or plow snow, the particles are burned off by passive regeneration. With my hobby farm use it regens about twice a year. For 10 minutes I must set the rpm at about 2300 rpm to start do a regen. So you can hate the EPA and try to justify it by saying that the new tier 4 tractors are not fuel efficient, but they are. According to Kubota they are set up to be fuel efficient at high rpm, and the common rail fuel supply is computer controlled. I think I remember that mine runs at 0.4 gal per hour? Too cold to go look.
It is clean. I like breathing soot free air.

They are expensive to fix if you do something stupid, and maybe even if you don’t. And there is a lot of stuff you have to have the dealer and his laptop. Maybe I am just lucky but so far no problems at all.

So like everything else there are pluses and minuses. But running WOT all the time is not one of the minuses. Except if you have the star crossed B3350 which does not have a common rail engine.

So no additional run time for regen?
No high throttle needed to regen?
No added maintenance?

This is the opposite of what I have learned.

And as far as not owning one, there is a reason for that. I actually wanted a 35HP machine.

Just because I don't own one does not mean I can't read and listen to the dealer and users horror stories. Not just Kubota, ALL of the manufacturers are having issues. It also does not diminish my math skills. Like saying "all these guys complaining and telling you not to put your johnson in a vice and hit it with a hammer, have never put their johnson in a vice and hit it with a hammer". You don't actually need to put your hand on the red hot burner to learn that it is hot.

The "Clean Air" strawman sounds good until you learn that with more population than ever, the air in America is cleaner than it has been in well over 100 years. The NEW burn more fuel, and burn more chemicals, and produce tons and tons of contaminated plastic approach could be making the planet worse, hard to tell at this point.

Again, no problem with clean running diesel engines. It is this current approach I question.

 

[sheepfarmer]

So no additional run time for regen?
No high throttle needed to regen?
No added maintenance?

This is the opposite of what I have learned.

And as far as not owning one, there is a reason for that. I actually wanted a 35HP machine.

Just because I don't own one does not mean I can't read and listen to the dealer and users horror stories. Not just Kubota, ALL of the manufacturers are having issues. It also does not diminish my math skills. Like saying "all these guys complaining and telling you not to put your johnson in a vice and hit it with a hammer, have never put their johnson in a vice and hit it with a hammer". You don't actually need to put your hand on the red hot burner to learn that it is hot.

The "Clean Air" strawman sounds good until you learn that with more population than ever, the air in America is cleaner than it has been in well over 100 years. The NEW burn more fuel, and burn more chemicals, and produce tons and tons of contaminated plastic approach could be making the planet worse, hard to tell at this point.

Again, no problem with clean running diesel engines. It is this current approach I question.

No you don’t have additional run time for a regen. If you are already working above a minimum rpm it regens while you work. The minimum on mine is around 2300 rpm, and WOT is 2650 or so. In my case when it signals by light on dash I take it out of auto throttle so it won’t drop too low, set the hand throttle until the light goes out, and go about my chores. In 10 minutes it’s done for another several months, probably about 50 hours. I run the tractor the way I want to use it with task appropriate rpms.

The horror stories you are hearing and seeing arise from dealers telling all new users to put their tractors in automatic regen and run it full throttle as that is the most fool proof. This is especially true in the L01 and maybe some M’s that don’t have the dpf meter. Apparently a lot of people can’t look at the dash occasionally to see if a light is flashing or not. And unable to hear a warning beeper. So to avoid missing the soot levels at which you can do an auto regen or a parked regen, they tell them to run full tilt all the time so it will auto regen without any help from the operator.

These are not good tractors for people that want to run them the “old” way no matter what. If you go off, as someone did a few weeks ago, leaving their tractor idle for 4 hours until it runs out of diesel and unable to regen, it is an expensive mistake.

As far as added maintenance, until you get up into high hours, same as all the other tractors, oil and filters, hoses as needed. I don’t know about how often various sensors fail, the dpf filter is good for about 3k hours.

My comment about my liking to breathe clean air means me not America. The L3560 doesn’t put out the sooty exhaust that the B2650 does. Both are newer models.

To each his or her own. I wouldn’t argue but I hate to see people be misinformed.

 

[Tornado]

Definitely didn't want to start a debate! Was just wondering what others did. Personally I tend to run around 2000 for most tasks, and adjust as necessary depending on how the tractor responds.

Oh its nothing you did. Just asking a question on these forums tends to turn into a rabbit hunt, as replies will run all around the world to answer a simple question. Its just the nature of the thing. Lot of smart folks on there though, and you can learn a lot, you just have to sift through all the other that comes along with it. As you can see above we've already started debating DPF issues, touched on conspiracies of big companies and the government, Dabbled in environmentalism. Its only page 2. Hang on!

 

[Freeheeler]

My comment about my liking to breathe clean air means me not America. The L3560 doesn’t put out the sooty exhaust that the B2650 does. Both are newer models.

?? I've not noted any sooty exhaust except for if I get off the seat and let it stall out. Over 100 hrs, I don't wash it, and there are no soot deposits on anything near the exhaust tip. Are folks having soot problems with their 2650's?

 

[GreensvilleJay]

re: If you go off, as someone did a few weeks ago, leaving their tractor idle for 4 hours until it runs out of diesel and unable to regen, it is an expensive mistake.

curious me would like to know , why was it expensive to repair and what was the failure ? It's really hard to believe that idling for 4 hours would cause a problem.....

 

[sheepfarmer]

re: If you go off, as someone did a few weeks ago, leaving their tractor idle for 4 hours until it runs out of diesel and unable to regen, it is an expensive mistake.

curious me would like to know , why was it expensive to repair and what was the failure ? It's really hard to believe that idling for 4 hours would cause a problem.....

It caused a problem because it came due for a regen and no one was around to up the rpms so it could do it. It probably ran through all of the soot levels sitting out there under a tree, and either shut down automatically or because it was out of fuel. It sounded like the owner was guessing at what to do next and might have made a mistake on trying to restart. I could be misremembering the details of what happened next, but I think the machine wound up at soot level 4 or 5, beyond where the owner could get it to regenerate without the aid of a dealer. I think lugbolt thought the dpf was toast, I was more optimistic thinking a dealer forced regen would do it. The op never reported back. So the expense is having to haul it to the dealer and maybe having to replace dpf. And maybe common rail parts if the op buggered them up while screwing around bleeding lines without a shop manual etc. There were two of these threads running concurrently and I may have muddled this a bit.

 

[Henro]

re: If you go off, as someone did a few weeks ago, leaving their tractor idle for 4 hours until it runs out of diesel and unable to regen, it is an expensive mistake.

curious me would like to know , why was it expensive to repair and what was the failure ? It's really hard to believe that idling for 4 hours would cause a problem.....

There was a thread here in the recent past related to your question. I do not remember the details exactly, since my tractors are older and no DPFs involved at my end.

BUT, I seem to remember that due to extended idling the poster's DPF clogged up, or something like that, and that the computer would not let the tractor run normally, and the only solution was to take the tractor to the dealer, who has a computer with the necessary software to reset things...or something like that.

Edit: I see sheepfarmer bet me to it...I also remember the OP saying he left the tractor idling and forgot about it, only to return when it had run out of fuel.

 

[sheepfarmer]

?? I've not noted any sooty exhaust except for if I get off the seat and let it stall out. Over 100 hrs, I don't wash it, and there are no soot deposits on anything near the exhaust tip. Are folks having soot problems with their 2650's?

I wouldn’t say problems, but it does get soot on my snowblower. I just wipe it off when I put it away for the year, and you can see the exhaust on starting. Some folks have re-routed the exhaust because the soot annoyed them. I would say it is just normal non dpf exhaust.

 

[River19]

I wouldn’t say problems, but it does get soot on my snowblower. I just wipe it off when I put it away for the year, and you can see the exhaust on starting. Some folks have re-routed the exhaust because the soot annoyed them. I would say it is just normal non dpf exhaust.

Same issue with the blower on my B2601.

I don't really mind as it takes 12 to maybe 17 seconds for me to wipe it off but I wanted to let you know you aren't alone.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

re: It caused a problem because it came due for a regen and no one was around to up the rpms so it could do it.
So the 'computer' was programmed by an idiot who never thought up a long idle-need ro regen scenario...
It's really too bad 'engineers' don't actually USE the tools they design in REAL World conditions...
I'd expect Kubota to pay for all the parts and labour for that disaster. Frankly it's inexcusable.

 

[Fordtech86]

re: It caused a problem because it came due for a regen and no one was around to up the rpms so it could do it.
So the 'computer' was programmed by an idiot who never thought up a long idle-need ro regen scenario...
It's really too bad 'engineers' don't actually USE the tools they design in REAL World conditions...
I'd expect Kubota to pay for all the parts and labour for that disaster. Frankly it's inexcusable.

There are likely reasons that ‘idiot’ engineer didn’t program it to do that. Tractor sitting in the woods with dead, dry materials laying around it, tractor regens and exhaust temps hit 900 plus degrees and starts a fire? One of a few reasons
I don’t own one but from reading here I believe situations like that are called out in the manual and most have a regen inhibit mode for working in situations like that.

 

[RCW]

There are likely reasons that ‘idiot’ engineer didn’t program it to do that. Tractor sitting in the woods with dead, dry materials laying around it, tractor regens and exhaust temps hit 900 plus degrees and starts a fire? One of a few reasons
I don’t own one but from reading here I believe situations like that are called out in the manual and most have a regen inhibit mode for working in situations like that.

Ford - - very true. Those engineers have to design for the most risky possibilities, with margin for error.

I don't know about you guys, but whenever I buy a new chainsaw, I immediately pull the screen from the muffler.

Designed to prevent sparks/fires in dry environs. Left in, they could hinder performance in our climate.

While very important in certain areas/circumstances, I never had a concern with sparks while cutting Spruce pulpwood a December snow....

 

[Nicfin36]

I don't know about you guys, but whenever I buy a new chainsaw, I immediately pull the screen from the muffler.

Designed to prevent sparks/fires in dry environs. Left in, they could hinder performance in our climate.

While very important in certain areas/circumstances, I never had a concern with sparks while cutting Spruce pulpwood a December snow....

I've always done the same. That is what we did to all our saws when I worked as a tree trimmer and I continued the practice. I never thought much about it until a few years ago, I had to cut down a very large oak tree by my parents house that had been dead for a year or maybe closer to two.

I never believed it, but I caught that tree on fire multiple times. It was unreal. I had to keep spraying it with a garden hose as it continued to catch fire at each section I cut. Sort of off topic, I know.

 

[sheepfarmer]

re: It caused a problem because it came due for a regen and no one was around to up the rpms so it could do it.
So the 'computer' was programmed by an idiot who never thought up a long idle-need ro regen scenario...
It's really too bad 'engineers' don't actually USE the tools they design in REAL World conditions...
I'd expect Kubota to pay for all the parts and labour for that disaster. Frankly it's inexcusable.

I don’t disagree that engineers often have little real world experience, but it doesn’t seem reasonable to expect them to account for someone leaving their tractor running unattended for four hours. These tractors start easily, there is no need to leave them running, particularly at an idle.

Flip said he liked to leave his old style tractor running with the ac on, presumably at some rpm above idle, but I doubt it is for 4 hours. Regrettably the B3350 which has its own innate problems, has been reported to get into clogged dpf problems when workers parked them with the ac running at idle to keep cab cool. It is inconsistent to bitch about the high energy cost of running a 10 to 15 minute regen cycle, and then argue that you should be able to leave the tractor running for hours when it is not doing anything.

 

[NHSleddog]

... It is inconsistent to bitch about the high energy cost of running a 10 to 15 minute regen cycle, and then argue that you should be able to leave the tractor running for hours when it is not doing anything.

Why does it have to be "not doing anything"?

What if it was charging something? Lighting something up? Running a small pump? Keeping something cool or warm?

I can think of lot of reasons not to run a tractor revved up.

I can't think of a single one that should break the tractor so it will no longer run for being run easy.

Also when it is below zero up here you let it run. You don't need to peg the throttle, idling is fine but you let it run.

Personally, I think the CURRENT method is a hassle, inefficient at best, and very costly over the life of the unit. And is it saving the planet or making it all worse. I have yet to hear from anyone how burning millions more gallons of what is supposedly the problem (diesel), wide open throttle sessions, millions of gallons of additional fluid being burned (def) being put in millions of plastic bottles is going to save the planet. The process puts tons and tons of ADDITIONAL carbon monoxide in the air.

I actually like the clean air and water, this whole DP scheme seems like a huge money grab that will make the problem worse.

 

[sheepfarmer]

Why does it have to be "not doing anything"?

What if it was charging something? Lighting something up? Running a small pump? Keeping something cool or warm?

I can think of lot of reasons not to run a tractor revved up.

I can't think of a single one that should break the tractor so it will no longer run for being run easy.

Also when it is below zero up here you let it run. You don't need to peg the throttle, idling is fine but you let it run.

Personally, I think the CURRENT method is a hassle, inefficient at best, and very costly over the life of the unit. And is it saving the planet or making it all worse. I have yet to hear from anyone how burning millions more gallons of what is supposedly the problem (diesel), wide open throttle sessions, millions of gallons of additional fluid being burned (def) being put in millions of plastic bottles is going to save the planet. The process puts tons and tons of ADDITIONAL carbon monoxide in the air.

I actually like the clean air and water, this whole DP scheme seems like a huge money grab that will make the problem worse.

No doubt sled dog, if you want your tractor to be a portable generator etc to run unattended for long periods, these are not the right machines. Running them at idle for long periods is not what breaks them, they are fine, you might have to run a regen cycle more often, but that’s your choice, but running them unattended can. As far as leaving a tractor run in the cold you might find that to be unnecessary with these. They are easy to start. It does require an operator to think, and check on their tractor every so often if left idling.
I won’t argue that much could be improved however. I don’t like to see more plastic being made, even if it is recycled.

 

[Orange man hero]

Wide Open Throttle...as soon as the engine fires off at startup, advance the throttle to the end of the lever's travel and leave it there until the job is finished.

This must be a joke as most engine wear occurs at cold starts and the first 30 seconds. I have always run my motors to operating temp before using and they last longer...way longer than most.

 

[Orange man hero]

No doubt sled dog, if you want your tractor to be a portable generator etc to run unattended for long periods, these are not the right machines. Running them at idle for long periods is not what breaks them, they are fine, you might have to run a regen cycle more often, but that’s your choice, but running them unattended can. As far as leaving a tractor run in the cold you might find that to be unnecessary with these. They are easy to start. It does require an operator to think, and check on their tractor every so often if left idling.
I won’t argue that much could be improved however. I don’t like to see more plastic being made, even if it is recycled.

You would not make a good WWII pilot as some of those old planes had a 25 point work out and check just to start and some like the P - 51 Mustang had a motor just for pre-oiling that you ran 5 minutes before you started it. Most were also warmed 10 minutes minimal before taking off. I think this instant start mentality is just a symptom of our fast paced culture. Big truck rigs that are hardly ever turned off can go a million miles before a diesel rebuild I understand.

 

[BobInSD]

...I think this instant start mentality is just a symptom of our fast paced culture...

When my son got old enough to drive, my dad thought it would be nice to give Dad's old truck that was pretending to be a tractor in my barn. Reliable, but old. The kid obsessed on the fact that I needed to pump the gas to set the choke, then warm it up in the winter (and also that Mom had issues and tended to flood it). No way, Jose. He bought a more modern granny-mobile that he could hop in and take off.

Luckily my daughter has more common sense and has been driving it some.