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SidecarFlip

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I had to complete and pass a firearms course to get my CPL and I have to register with the BATFE to hold my Class 3 license. To me, simple answer is everyone need to be qualified to buy any firearm.

I own a lot of firearms.
 

CaveCreekRay

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Criminals and crazies do not follow the law. So more gun laws are simply NOT the answer. Look at Chicago. Case CLOSED. Period. Dot.

I think mental health options for people today are atrocious. Hit 21 and BOOM! "Here's your meds, take two a day. Call us if you have a problem. NEXT!" How can you stab your girlfriend 52 times and then carve her into hors de oeuvres and not receive the death penalty? Sanity or not, that is crazy and deserves the death penalty. We have gotten away from penalties for bad behavior today.

I like the national concealed carry law. Until we get a better idea how to handle this, those willing and capable should have the right and ability to defend themselves.

Back to my nap...
 
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sheepfarmer

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It sounds as though some aspects of the concealed carry law are working ok?

I am still stuck on the notion that individuals can do more than laws to help. So to use an example closer to home, suppose a little old lady with shaky hands and not great eyesight walks into a gunstore and asks to buy a gun. Can the store owner say "ok, you may be able to handle this size, model gun, it is easy to take safety off, etc, but I will only sell it to you if you can pass a gun safety and handling course with this model, and have the instructor provide me with a letter to that effect." This is kind of a common sense thing to keep little old ladies of unknown skill levels from shooting themselves in the foot or their neighbors by mistake, but I am wondering if a gunstore is obligated to sell a gun to anyone with money that passes whatever background checks are presently in force?

Detecting that level of incompetence might be fairly easy, but what about the person that walks in and the owner's spidey sense says this guy is a little off. Can he refuse to sell him a gun?
 

RCW

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It's not gerrymandering in NY. Those counties and NYC have a significant majority of the state's population. In fact, NY Congressional districts were recently (2012) revised using a computer algorithm:

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/20/nyregion/judges-impose-new-congressional-map-for-new-york.html
True - don't want to detract from the greater conversation here but I think he carried Erie, Monroe, Tompkins, Onondaga, Albany and Ulster counties upstate, which are the biggest upstate cities. Then add NYC-metro and Long Island.....

At 900 square miles, my home County has less people (50,000) than a couple NYC blocks.....

In general, much of upstate is losing population, growing older and getting poorer.

I don't see that trend changing in the near future.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming...again....;)
 

85Hokie

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From Sheepfarmer:

Detecting that level of incompetence might be fairly easy, but what about the person that walks in and the owner's spidey sense says this guy is a little off. Can he refuse to sell him a gun?


I would think that ANY store owner can refuse ANYONE they wish.......hopefully not for their gender or race nor religious beliefs !

SO I would think the owner COULD say " ma'am I do not feel comfortable selling you this gun" .........
 

tiktock

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From Sheepfarmer:

Detecting that level of incompetence might be fairly easy, but what about the person that walks in and the owner's spidey sense says this guy is a little off. Can he refuse to sell him a gun?


I would think that ANY store owner can refuse ANYONE they wish.......hopefully not for their gender or race nor religious beliefs !

SO I would think the owner COULD say " ma'am I do not feel comfortable selling you this gun" .........
I am fairly sure this is the case across the board federally enforced.

"Ginger Colbrun, public affairs chief for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, says licensed gun dealers have broad discretion to deny sales, such as in instances where a buyer appears to exhibit erratic behavior.

“As private business owners, [Federal Firearms License holders] can and do use discretion in determining to whom they will or will not provide service,” Colbrun says."

Basically they can look at your shoes, see they have holes in them, get a bad vibe and send you on your way if they want. I'm sure normal discrimination laws apply here but beyond that they can say no to anyone they want for any reason.
 

D2Cat

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Then why does the baker have to make a wedding cake for someone he may choose to not serve? Seems inconsistant.
 

sheepfarmer

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Thanks tiktock, I wondered. Maybe the licensed gun dealers could give me some idea what they need in the way of tools to help them employ their discretion more effectively. I have gathered the background check system leaves a lot to be desired. Maybe training on how to detect drug users? I like the idea of making a sale contingent on a 6 week long course. A lot of mentally ill folks can act normal for 15 min, but 6 weeks is harder.
 

CaveCreekRay

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I taught firearms safety and range-qualified each of my students. I appreciated working with women because, just like flying, they come at firearms with a different tack.

Most, who hadn't shot before, were initially afraid of the noise and the recoil. Some were only there because of their husbands.

One mid-70's lady who had never touched a firearm, borrowed my revolver and soon shot the pants off her husband. She was really getting into it by the end of the range session and vowed to go get a similar weapon ASAP. No worries about her. Her husband beamed.

I had a business woman in her late 30's invite her best friend to come take the class. The friend showed up with a new GLOCK 19 her friend told her to buy. Extremely nervous after the first volley, by the 100th shot, this woman was empowered and transformed. She confidently handled her gun and ran it flawlessly by the end. She had a blast, as nearly every student did and, walking off the range, they were changed people.

We had one lady no-show three classes. Her brother was FBI in another state and, after her ex had threatened her repeatedly, he finally convinced her to show up. Sheepish, embarrassed, and afraid of not passing, she showed up at the range portion with a massive revolver a friend loaned to her. Things were not going well after a few volleys. The gun overwhelmed her. One of my fellow instructors swapped her his 45. The transformation was instantaneous. Much less recoil and higher accuracy built her confidence right away. She immediately realized that she could safely and competently defend herself with the proper choice of weapon. In fact, she was so stoked, that she offered us the use of her photo on our ads and posters as a sign to her ex of her new found confidence. When her ex found out she was armed, he never again contacted her...

Training is essential. It renders confidence and small motor skills that make operation of the gun safer and more likely to result in a positive experience. I had an elderly lady I knew in one of my classes that probably shouldn't own a gun. But, after the class, she knew far better what her limitations were and she at least knew the safe way to handle a firearm.

Then, everything changed. Arizona decided that the Second Amendment was your authorization to conceal carry. So they dropped the requirement and anyone can conceal carry now in AZ. In doing so, they dropped their strict requirement for training to get a CCW, should you want the certification. Now, people with a Groupon coupon pay $35 and watch a two-hour video and get their certificate for their CCW here in AZ. They never touch a gun and don't even have to prove competency with one. Not good. My students spent a full day training and shooting. No question which is better but $35 beats out $99 every day.

Sorry for the long story... Oh... Merry Christmas to all!



You may be wondering: If you don't need a CCW to be legally carrying concealed in AZ, why pay the $65 to get the permit? One, it affords you some extra rights uncertified people do not get, like entering a school zone while armed. It adds you to the AZDPS database and allows you to buy a gun and walk out the door as fast as buying a carton of milk. Your background check is already done.

To Mary's point, more guns statistically make for less violent crime wherever concealed carry is implemented. Criminals don't know who is armed.
 

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sheepfarmer

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Ray, did you ever have students that you thought shouldn't be carrying a gun? Either gender. How long do you think you would need to be around them to form an opinion?

In any case some kind of training sounds like a good thing.
 

David Page

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I had to complete and pass a firearms course to get my CPL and I have to register with the BATFE to hold my Class 3 license. To me, simple answer is everyone need to be qualified to buy any firearm.

I own a lot of firearms.
Sorry SidecarFlip, I understand why you said this but whether its a firearm, my mouth(speech) or religion who qualifies to tell me if I can have my God given rights that the Founders acknowledged that we already have and that the government isn't the one that gives them to us. As Skeets talked about the slippery slope we have to try to keep from going down it, its very hard to push backup it. If we don't keep our rights here does anybody know of any other country we could go to to have them?
 

bearbait

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My take on it is gun control is like putting locks on our doors, it's only there for honest people. There is no way in this life time you will be able to stop crazy people from doing harm to other people whether it be gun, knife or whatever. Do people need to be certified to carry or handle any weapon, absolutely. Also if people need to go out and harm other people they should suffer the same consequences. More and more it seems to me we have less control as to what say we have, it's become more of a dictatorship. JMHO
 

CaveCreekRay

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As long as they followed our safety rules, they could remain on the range. One guy could not and was escorted to his car.

It became self evident. The people who could not operate the gun or took repeated admonitions to keep the barrel pointed down range, they understood by the end of the class how their skills matched up to the task. Public humiliation on the firing line is a very powerful agent of change. Some met the challenge. Others walked away, knowing it was not for them.
 

David Page

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This is a long watch but it needs to get out to everyone. The DEMS are not only attacking the 2nd amendment but in the bill they also put forth some very restrictive wording in regards to the 1st amendment.
This is baddddd JUJU from the left kids

https://youtu.be/JrXq-Ml-9A4?t=931
Thanks Skeets, Me and my family could be guilty of many of these things but I'm sure that when we understand how right they are we'll turn them all in for destroying.
 

lugbolt

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First off I don't own any guns so I can't really speak with any authority.

However..I'm still gonna give my $.02. Or $.01, whatever it's worth (likely less).

I see/hear this all the time. "We need to figure out how to keep guns out of the hands of those who have bad intentions". Ok, I'll agree there. The BIG problem with that is that....when gun store does background check, talks to the potential owner, owner's parents, kids, wife, kids, coworkers, it doesn't matter who, the potential owner is clean. No record, no history of "snapping", no disabilities, no depression, no history of mental illnesses. He's perfect. A legal owner, and either a hunter or a collector.

Then......said buyer, lets say 6 years down the road goes through a divorce or loses a family member, or whatever happens. Now he's vulnerable. Some guy at Wal-Mart pisses him off and it eats at him for a few hours after the ordeal. Guy gets home, it's still eating at him. Remember, he's got something else going on in the background. He grabs his heat, runs to the guy's house, or maybe to where the guy works or lives, opens fire, kills himself. Sound familiar? Yes...it happens.

So in such case as above, what can be done about it to prevent it from the get-go? Absolutely nothing. The buyer was clean at the time of the sale, and was clean for a long time afterwards. But all it took was one time. So what and how was he set off to pull off what he did? THAT is the question...and therein lies a lot of the prevention.

A lot of the ideas we come up with are hindsight motivated, and that includes our "leaders".

Now our leaders....the "SIMPLE" solution (to...especially the liberals who "we" voted into office) is to "simply" limit who can & can't buy, and that may be a product of making what we want too expensive for the common people to own, or it could be a simple "no guns allowed" in most all areas. Great idea right? Wrong. You're not going to stop the criminals. Murder is illegal the last time I checked, but how many murderers cared about the law?

There is, in my opinion, no solution that works for everyone, but if you're a narrow-minded liberal, your solution is to remove the right to keep & bear arms from 100% of Americans. Problem solved right? In "theory", yes.

Maybe an outright ban is too far fetched. For those who agree but still think that there's an easier solution for everyone, one that still preserves the bill of rights in it's entirety, such that those of you who (us) who want to collect, preserve, hunt, or whatever (law-abiding) aren't negatively affected, let's hear your solutions....but keep in mind that those who hunt, shoot for sporting purposes, or simply collect are also subjects of your ideas.

The USA is one of a few countries whose constitution preserves the right to own and use firearms, but unfortunately (or fortunately?) our founding fathers did not give any specifics on the subject. That leaves it wide open to our current "leaders"-if you call them that.

In this state, if one were to limit who can own firearms much more than what is currently on the books, there's a very good possibility that the people would overtake their governing bodies who decided that it was a good idea in the first place. I think about every household has some sort of gun, with most of them being powerful hunting rifles...lots of bolt and lever actions (30-06 and 30-30 being quite popular here). Unfortunately, there's been an influx of liberal yankee morons moving here and bringing their yankeeliberalism with 'em. You're not welcome here, go away, and if you do decide to come here, better learn to be a redneck real quick.
 

armylifer

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This is a fascinating subject. Having read every post in this thread I think that a couple of times an answer to the problem has been touched on but not fully examined. I recently read somewhere that ALMOST without exception, the mass shooters were prescribed meds such as Prozac and similar drugs for ADD/ADHD and other psychological problems, at least once in their lives. To me, that is a clear indicator that those who have ever in their lives been prescribed those drugs should NEVER be allowed to possess guns. How come no one looks at that?

I did a 3 year stretch as an Army Recruiter (1987 - 1990) during my career. One of the disqualifications at that time, for service in the US Army was having ever been prescribed any of those drugs for ADD/ADHD. Now, if the US Army recognized the dangers of ever having been prescribed and taken those drugs was a danger, why don't our politicians? I'll tell you why. It all comes down to big pharma and their agenda. It is also politically expedient to villinize a tool instead of making people angry by suggesting that crimes are committed by people, not tools.
 

troverman

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"...The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

In my opinion, this means that any US citizen may acquire, keep, carry, and operate firearms. Period.

Generally speaking, of course we don't want to put a deadly weapon in the hands of psychos...whether that be a gun, grenade, automobile, or what have you.

That said, I'm far more comfortable with allowing any citizen to purchase any firearm without restriction and deal with whatever consequences follow than trample the US Constitution and remove the rights of millions of law abiding citizens.

Many people forget the purpose of this amendment. It is not to allow citizens to have firearms to go sport shooting, hunting, collecting, or self-defense. It is to protect the collective citizenry from an oppressive government by allowing them to be well armed. It is one of the best parts of the check and balance system.

The moment we allow government to repossess our arms is the moment we give up our freedoms.
 

skeets

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Guys please remember that this bill is set to limit YOUR right to the 1st amendment as well. We are blessed with that right to speak our minds no matter which side you may fall on. We live in the greatest country in the world, as far as freedoms. So we, as a nation, every one, must be very cognizant about all of our freedoms, and losing any of them, be it firearms or the freedom of speech, if we lose either the rest mean nothing. Just MHO