National Park Service 4WD Only Trails. No AWD Allowed.

[NorthwoodsLife]

FYI... Wanna load up the Subaru or BMW X5 and go camping in the National Forest? Think again. Plan your camping location wisely.

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/national-park-service-fining-awd-vehicles-on-4wd-trails/

Be well.

 

[ACDII]

LOL I guess those with Broncos will need to stay off as well since they are also AWD vehicles unless you get the top end Tremor or Raptor or whatever they call the real 4WD model. Same with the Maverick, only one model has actual 4WD but based on the AWD technology.

Guess that means I can't take my Flex either, however, I know IT would get stuck since it is more of a track suspension than off road AWD.

 

[Tarmy]

This reminds me of all the weekend warriors out here in AWD mini vans and similar. When it snows they mostly think that because they have all 4 wheels working they can drive like it is 72 and sunny out. Almost all of the spin outs are Tesla, mini vans and Subarus…flatlanders who think they have enough skill to drive 50-70 MPH in chain conditions.

This likely explains the new policy…too many clowns driving without off-road skills thinking no biggie. That, and the cost to the agencies having to tow/deal with those who get stuck.

 

[Elliott in GA]

Not all AWD systems are less than 4 wheel drive; of course, ground clearance is another issue.

 

[jimh406]

Fwiw, I didn't see a stock Subaru shame anyone since it was the only vehicle in the video.

Anyway, there is a huge difference between independent suspension Subarus etc vs a high clearance solid axle vehicle. That being said, there is also a huge difference between different solid axle vehicles as well. Some of the newer vehicles like the Bronco are independent suspension and are called 4wd.

I watch a couple of the YouTubers and it seems that many of the newer vehicles like the Bronco and Jeeps tend to break a lot of components as well. I don't quite get the point of the restriction.

The Lexus GX series is technically AWD although you can lock the center diff which makes it 4WD in that mode. There probably isn't a better traction system out there.

 

[Fordtech86]

Regarding the current model bronco, the full size broncos are 4wd drive (rwd based) the bronco sports are awd (fwd based)

 

[lugbolt]

we use our polaris out in the park and sometimes the forest. It is awd. Been checked once. No issue. I think the rangers are smarter than the people who come up with that stupid stuff

all polaris utvs are awd. Selectable awd, but nonetheless awd. Well except the pro-R and ranger 1500, I think both of those are traditional 4wd like the old yamaha Rhino's.

 

[NorthwoodsLife]

Here is a bit more of the NPS definition of 4WD vs AWD:

Four-Wheel Drive Determination - Canyonlands National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

Four-Wheel Drive Determination requires four-wheel drive use on certain roads in Canyonlands and Arches national parks.

www.nps.gov

From that page:

"DEFINITION

A four wheel drive vehicle is defined as a sport utility vehicle (SUV) or truck with at least 15-inch tire rims and at least eight inches of clearance from the lowest point of the frame, body, suspension, or differential to the ground. Four wheel drive vehicles have a transfer case between the front and rear axles that locks the front and rear drive shafts together when four wheel drive is engaged. All wheel drive (AWD) vehicles do not meet this definition".

 

[NCL4701]

Unless something changed in the past couple years, the beaches on the NC outer banks that are controlled by the NPS require a permit to drive on. To get the permit you have to take a short class where you get some basics of sand driving, explain the absolute cluster that will ensue if you get stuck below the high tide line and the tide comes in before you get out, are advised of the horrible things that will be done to you if you run over a piping plover nest or do anything at all to a sea turtle, etc. They also check your vehicle to make sure you have a list of stuff such as a high lift jack, a shovel, and I don’t recall what all else. They also make sure your vehicle isn’t something that’s going to almost certainly require rescue. Yes, it has to be 4WD, not AWD, and limited to 2 axles (no big military type trucks).

It’s not particularly expensive as best I recall. If you live nearby you can get an annual permit for not much more than a weekly permit. And it’s really not as big a deal as it might sound. Basically, they just want to make sure you don’t get hurt, your equipment isn’t swallowed by the ocean, they don’t have to save you, and you don’t tear up flora and fauna you’re not allowed to tear up.

There may be some AWD that are capable in the sugar sand (that fluffy stuff that’s hard to even walk through). I wouldn’t expect the NPS to sort out which are and aren’t. It’s a lot simpler to just say 4WD allowed; AWD not allowed. You can get many miles away from anything and if you don’t have the right equipment, that beautiful, unspoiled, wild area can become very, very harsh and dangerous very quickly.

Seems to me they’re doing their job making sure people aren’t going out there being a danger to themselves, other people, and the park they’re charged with preserving. Unfortunately, they have to get pretty draconian to get people to take them seriously and comply.

BTW, I have seen a Subaru Forester stuck 100 yards into a beach access at Carolina Beach (not a NPS facility). Don’t know what AWD may have had to do with it. It slid into a set of existing wheel tracks (mine) in sugar sand and all four wheels were no longer touching the ground. Met the couple at the air down area and suggested they didn’t have the ground clearance nor did they have the requisite type of 4WD system. The man told me I was a dumba$$ redneck who had no idea what his vehicle was capable of. They were still in the same place when we left about four hours later. It was a 200 yard walk to civilization and I was quite sure the guy wouldn’t have wanted a dumba$$ redneck hooking a tow strap to his fine off-road machine so I thought it best to leave them.

Oddly enough, that same trip to Carolina Beach, we also met a nice older couple with a sweet, still smelling new 2500 GMC stuck for no apparent reason, who were both trying to dig out and looked like they were about spent. The lady waived us down and asked for a tow out. Couldn’t figure out why they were stuck. Asked what pressure they were running in the tires. The man angrily said I was the fifth person who asked that and of course they were running 70psi because that was what the tire specified. Felt so bad for his exhausted wife I got into a pretty good argument with him. She was done with his stupidity after being told the same thing by six people and laid into him hard, so he grudgingly relented. Aired down to 12psi, gave him a little pull since it was sitting on the frame, and he drove right out.

The Subaru guy and GMC guy are the kind that cause problems for the Rangers and other park patrons. Carolina Beach isn’t a big deal. Anyone without a disability can walk back to civilization. There are signs that advise which tow services to call if you get stuck. (There are also signs that tell you to air down and compressors at the entrance/exit to air back up.) At least when we’ve been there, it’s a bunch of people with vehicles on the beach surf fishing so there’s no real danger of death or destruction. The National Parks are a totally different deal. They have to write rules for Subaru and GMC guy so they don’t tear up everything and die.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

Sure sounds like a great money grab that has NOTHING to do with the real definition of 'four wheel drive' !!! Since when does ground clearance have ANYTHING to do with how many wheels get power ?

I consider my BX23S to be 'four wheel drive' others say it's FWA . JEEP said my '77 Cherokee was 'four wheel drive' yet the NPS will say it's AWD.

Hmm, wonder what NPS defines a 'truck' to be !!

 

[Smokeydog]

My Honda Ridgeline AWD is great on our hillside farm. Steep gravel can stop and start without a spin. I'm sure it can handle our limited snow and ice. Low ground clearance not meant for off road.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

man it'd be interesting to see how NPS classifies my old Willy pickup with Warn Lock-O-Matic hubs.
Depending if they're locked or not, it's either a 4wd or and AWD !

 

[mcmxi]

BTW, I have seen a Subaru Forester stuck 100 yards into a beach access at Carolina Beach

I've owned two Audis with the 2.7L twin turbo charged engine and one Subaru Forester with the 2.0 turbo charged engine. The Audi AWD system was so much better. The Subaru experience turned me off that brand and I'd never go back.

As for off-roading, my first real experience was in Hawaii in 2000 when a good friend invited me to join him and his extensive family on their yearly outing up above Yokohama Bay on Oahu. There are miles upon miles of trails up there controlled by the US Airforce. He suggested that I rent a Jeep for the weekend, which I did, and he also suggested that I remove anything easily damaged such as running boards, which I also did. It was an intense experience but I was hooked after that adventure.

Shortly after that I bought a '98 Jeep TJ that I still have. My first upgrade was a Ramsey 8,000lb winch that I bought for $150 from one of my friend's towing buddies. I still have and use that winch, and I'm of the opinion that a winch should be the first upgrade. I used that winch many, many times to help people out of various problems, and even helped my friend with some challenging recoveries where he couldn't get his F550 to the vehcile. One was a stolen Lexus that had been abandoned at Kaena Point.

The next upgrade was 4.56 gears to replace the factory 3.07. That took me the entire weekend to complete since I had to make some "special" tools to complete the swap, but going from a 32:1 crawl ratio to a 47.5:1 crawl ratio made a huge difference, not to mention getting the engine back into a decent rpm range with 31" tires and in 5th gear. The factory transfer case is kind of lame at 2.72:1 and I always wanted to swap it for a 4:1 transfer case but never got around to it.

The obsession continued with a Rubicon Express 3" suspension kit, a Poison Spyder roll cage and many more upgrades over the years.

 

[GrassLakeRon]

I've owned two Audis with the 2.7L twin turbo charged engine and one Subaru Forester with the 2.0 turbo charged engine. The Audi AWD system was so much better. The Subaru experience turned me off that brand and I'd never go back.

As for off-roading, my first real experience was in Hawaii in 2000 when a good friend invited me to join him and his extensive family on their yearly outing up above Yokohama Bay on Oahu. There are miles upon miles of trails up there controlled by the US Airforce. He suggested that I rent a Jeep for the weekend, which I did, and he also suggested that I remove anything easily damaged such as running boards, which I also did. It was an intense experience but I was hooked after that adventure.

Shortly after that I bought a '98 Jeep TJ that I still have. My first upgrade was a Ramsey 8,000lb winch that I bought for $150 from one of my friend's towing buddies. I still have and use that winch, and I'm of the opinion that a winch should be the first upgrade. I used that winch many, many times to help people out of various problems, and even helped my friend with some challenging recoveries where he couldn't get his F550 to the vehcile. One was a stolen Lexus that had been abandoned at Kaena Point.

The next upgrade was 4.56 gears to replace the factory 3.07. That took me the entire weekend to complete since I had to make some "special" tools to complete the swap, but going from a 32:1 crawl ratio to a 47.5:1 crawl ratio made a huge difference, not to mention getting the engine back into a decent rpm range with 31" tires and in 5th gear. The factory transfer case is kind of lame at 2.72:1 and I always wanted to swap it for a 4:1 transfer case but never got around to it.

The obsession continued with a Rubicon Express 3" suspension kit, a Poison Spyder roll cage and many more upgrades over the years.

Interesting you didn't like your subbie. I have a 2018 Forester XT 2.0 turbo and love it. It takes everything Michigan can throw at it and asks for more. My wife and I have even taken it up blind-35 in the UP and had no issues.

It's funny .... All options our subbie has but locking in 4 wd.....I wonder if having X-mode qualifies as that....

 

[jyoutz]

FYI... Wanna load up the Subaru or BMW X5 and go camping in the National Forest? Think again. Plan your camping location wisely.

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/national-park-service-fining-awd-vehicles-on-4wd-trails/

Be well.

A National Forest and a National Park are two different places, and administered under different laws and policies. A National Park is administered by the Department of Interior, and a National Forest by the Department of Agriculture.

 

[jyoutz]

I've owned two Audis with the 2.7L twin turbo charged engine and one Subaru Forester with the 2.0 turbo charged engine. The Audi AWD system was so much better. The Subaru experience turned me off that brand and I'd never go back.

As for off-roading, my first real experience was in Hawaii in 2000 when a good friend invited me to join him and his extensive family on their yearly outing up above Yokohama Bay on Oahu. There are miles upon miles of trails up there controlled by the US Airforce. He suggested that I rent a Jeep for the weekend, which I did, and he also suggested that I remove anything easily damaged such as running boards, which I also did. It was an intense experience but I was hooked after that adventure.

Shortly after that I bought a '98 Jeep TJ that I still have. My first upgrade was a Ramsey 8,000lb winch that I bought for $150 from one of my friend's towing buddies. I still have and use that winch, and I'm of the opinion that a winch should be the first upgrade. I used that winch many, many times to help people out of various problems, and even helped my friend with some challenging recoveries where he couldn't get his F550 to the vehcile. One was a stolen Lexus that had been abandoned at Kaena Point.

The next upgrade was 4.56 gears to replace the factory 3.07. That took me the entire weekend to complete since I had to make some "special" tools to complete the swap, but going from a 32:1 crawl ratio to a 47.5:1 crawl ratio made a huge difference, not to mention getting the engine back into a decent rpm range with 31" tires and in 5th gear. The factory transfer case is kind of lame at 2.72:1 and I always wanted to swap it for a 4:1 transfer case but never got around to it.

The obsession continued with a Rubicon Express 3" suspension kit, a Poison Spyder roll cage and many more upgrades over the years.

I have had a Subaru forester and now have a Jeep Wrangler. They are two very different vehicles, but both are excellent for their intended purposes. The Subaru with its full time all wheel drive is far superior on snow packed, icy, and wet paved roads unless the snow is deep. Of course the Jeep with part time 4x4 and solid front axles is far superior off road and will go places that no other vehicle will go.

 

[mcmxi]

Interesting you didn't like your subbie. I have a 2018 Forester XT 2.0 turbo and love it. It takes everything Michigan can throw at it and asks for more. My wife and I have even taken it up blind-35 in the UP and had no issues.

It's funny .... All options our subbie has but locking in 4 wd.....I wonder if having X-mode qualifies as that....

It's a very small data set but that 2014 Forester was a disappointment for sure. It didn't do well in Montana in the winter and had numerous issues that the local dealer couldn't fix. I sold it after a couple of years of owning it. I expected more since it was made in Japan.

 

[mcmxi]

I have had a Subaru forester and now have a Jeep Wrangler. They are two very different vehicles, but both are excellent for their intended purposes. The Subaru with its full time all wheel drive is far superior on snow packed, icy, and wet paved roads unless the snow is deep. Of course the Jeep with part time 4x4 and solid front axles is far superior off road and will go places that no other vehicle will go.

The only time I've ever been stranded due to weather was with that Subaru. My first winter at this house we had a big snow fall and the Subaru couldn't even make it out of the garage. I had to call a coworker and ask them to pick me up at the bottom of the driveway. After that experience I decided that I didn't want to rely upon anyone else when it came to snow removal or transportation.

Also, I didn't find it to be particularly good on icy roads either. My F250 is way better during the winter up here than the Subaru ever was. The Audis were excellent in any situation and by the far the best cars I've ever owned. They were both Allroads with factory air bag suspension. That's just my experience so take it for what it is.

 

[jyoutz]

The only time I've ever been stranded due to weather was with that Subaru. My first winter at this house we had a big snow fall and the Subaru couldn't even make it out of the garage. I had to call a coworker and ask them to pick me up at the bottom of the driveway. After that experience I decided that I didn't want to rely upon anyone else when it came to snow removal or transportation.

Also, I didn't find it to be particularly good on icy roads either. My F250 is way better during the winter up here than the Subaru ever was. The Audis were excellent in any situation and by the far the best cars I've ever owned. They were both Allroads with factory air bag suspension. That's just my experience so take it for what it is.

You are saying the same thing as me. For deep snow, Subaru's are not trucks or Jeeps and won’t plow deep snow. But the full time AWD is far superior to truck or Jeep part time 4x4 on slick snowpack or icy paved roads.

 

[NorthwoodsLife]

A National Forest and a National Park are two different places, and administered under different laws and policies. A National Park is administered by the Department of Interior, and a National Forest by the Department of Agriculture.

Are you being serious? YOU know what I meant.