How good is alternate energy?

[random]

*) Theoretically, nuclear power is the cleanest and most-efficient. Humans have not perfected this yet.

And has so many obstacles that it's not likely to be perfected, or even significantly improved, any time soon.
What amazes me is the opposition to nuclear by people who want to eliminate coal - even WITH its drawbacks it's the best option.

 

[RCW]

The area my folks live in is suburbia compared to here. They really did look like the Clampetts when they moved into "civilization" from the home farms.

The last I knew, their township alone had 12 solar projects proposed.

Some on very prime agricultural property. Some right on top of high-end residential properties, that was also currently agricultural property.

I think total was nearing 3,000 acres, including a project that goes over multiple towns.

Those solar installations will never be agricultural again, except for sheep to keep the grass down....but how do you feed sheep in the winter without feed?

Our New York Governor has taken away almost all local jurisdiction/control away for certain green energy projects.

Those projects are taking HUGE amounts of greenspace in our area.

Honestly, I think he wants Upstate to be the green energy generation station for downstate/NY/Long Island.

The last person to leave Upstate New York should turn off what lights are left...

 

[BigG]

I have watched hundreds of acres of land turned into solar farms. In some they made the land as flat as far as the eye could see before they built acres of solar panels on the land. Others simply push all the trees over leaving the hills and valleys but little to control the water run off in either style. The panels are to tall to work on as they do require maintenance and to short to grow even sheep under them. The maintenance is tremendous just to keep the weeds down. The amount of land that has now become worthless is amazing.

The heat that these large areas has already altered the weather locally. Wild life has been killed off and pushed off the land. They are ugly as sin so they are buying farms in remote areas to hide the panels.

Thank God we are going "green."

 

[Tughill Tom]

The area my folks live in is suburbia compared to here. They really did look like the Clampetts when they moved into "civilization" from the home farms.

The last I knew, their township alone had 12 solar projects proposed.

Some on very prime agricultural property. Some right on top of high-end residential properties, that was also currently agricultural property.

I think total was nearing 3,000 acres, including a project that goes over multiple towns.

Those solar installations will never be agricultural again, except for sheep to keep the grass down....but how do you feed sheep in the winter without feed?

Our New York Governor has taken away almost all local jurisdiction/control away for certain green energy projects.

Those projects are taking HUGE amounts of greenspace in our area.

Honestly, I think he wants Upstate to be the green energy generation station for downstate/NY/Long Island.

The last person to leave Upstate New York should turn off what lights are left...

That's for sure, I'm up here in the Mapleridge wind farm and now Solar Panel farms going everywhere.
The wind towers are an EYESORE and noise to say the least and have environmental issues . The Solar Fields have their own issues.
But the LUV GOV shut down a wood burning co-gen plant 2 years ago..... No where to send/sell the power to. HE'S Awesome!!!

 

[cmorningstar01]

What else is not covered when speaking of electric vehicles and green energy is the materials mined to build the batteries, the materials used to make solar panels, These are actually in shorter supply than fossil fuels and fossil fuels unlike rare earth minerals and precious metals are still be created by the natural process that made them in the first place.

 

[cmorningstar01]

I have watched hundreds of acres of land turned into solar farms.

Same here in NJ...the garden state, fruit tree orchards cut down, viable farm lands flattened out...all to put solar panels on...not only has it actually hurt the environment it is an absolute eyesore

 

[sheepfarmer]

I have watched hundreds of acres of land turned into solar farms. In some they made the land as flat as far as the eye could see before they built acres of solar panels on the land. Others simply push all the trees over leaving the hills and valleys but little to control the water run off in either style. The panels are to tall to work on as they do require maintenance and to short to grow even sheep under them. The maintenance is tremendous just to keep the weeds down. The amount of land that has now become worthless is amazing.

The heat that these large areas has already altered the weather locally. Wild life has been killed off and pushed off the land. They are ugly as sin so they are buying farms in remote areas to hide the panels.

Thank God we are going "green."

I have watched hundreds of acres of good farm land turned into subdivisions and paved over to create shopping malls. No one seems to have any common sense. There is a time and a place for everything.

I was taking some relatives around and we drove across the state to the Thumb. Lots of wind turbines scattered around in the middles of corn fields, and not much else except right next to the lakes. I was puzzled until later I saw a map of the wind fields, and there was sort of a funnel effect due to the lake, so that I believe the wind down the middle if the Thumb must howl a lot of the time. They obviously have solved the cold weather problem. So those are probably far enough away from anyone’s house to not be a nuisance, and are likely to be cost effective. But not everywhere.

 

[Shadow_storm56]

Incorrect, urban legend with that text. There is a bit of truth to it, but not in all cases. Truth about that article:

Overblown: Wind turbines don’t take more energy to build than they will ever produce - Full Fact

A post claiming wind turbines can never produce as much energy as was taken to build them is based on a selective quotation and is incorrect.

fullfact.org

Yea it takes like 8 months for them to make it back or so.

 

[i7win7]

Green energy plant

 

[Old_Paint]

Lots of theory being discussed.

If a charger is capable of drawing 60A, then you can't put it on a 60A circuit. The NEC won't allow it, they require a safety pad, so IIRC they'll require a 75A circuit. Also applies to the infrastructure, they ain't gonna let poco's size the wire for the exact current demand, they also want a pad of safety so that when more people start adding more chargers, they don't have to be constantly replacing lines.

And therein lies the problem. Basically if the chargers are rated at a max 60A (for example only), that's equivalent to adding a small house to every existing house; theoretically doubling the load on the generation system and all conductors and transformers in between the load and the generation station (power plant). We are not currently set up for that. So what's that mean? The push for electric cars is GOING to cost everyone. PoCo's are gonna have to update/upgrade their entire operations, there is going to have to be more generators (more power plants?) and all that stuff costs money. Do you think they're gonna just eat the cost? No, they're also a business, they pass the costs onto the consumer. If it costs a million to add a generator and they're distributing the power to a million people, each person pays an extra dollar---PLUS all the taxes and fees they add. So $1.25. Don't sound like much does it? It just goes up and up and up. Now I don't know about you all but I don't get a pay raise as often as the cost of living goes up. Maybe you guys do but I don't. I'm pretty well tapped out currently. 100% of budget is just paying bills and bills keep going up. Gas is going up. Energy is going up. Everything (but it was expected because of the election) is going up in cost. So I have options, either take a second job, ask for a raise, or get another one (supposedly according to Obiden that's the correct way "Just find another job"). I am sorry if I offend anyone but anytime a democrat is elected into office and/or a congress becomes democratically controlled, the cost of living goes up for everyone.

I work on EV's for a living and trust me, there are a TON of little things that people don't consider. How do you dispose of batteries and battery packs? Currently there is no disposal process for certain batteries. Lead-acid is one thing but cad dis batteries? Nobody will take them because they can't do anythign with them here, so they're just piling up out behind the shop. And replacing a battery in an EV is NOT cheap (again costs keep going up). Remember....Obama indirectly shut down a lead plant and once that was done, the cost of batteries went up, along with the price of bullets and fishing lures and basically anything that contains Lead. Wiring, have to replace it. The amount of current that flows through the conductors will destroy the conductor if the connection is not top notch--and some of them aren't. There is serious fire hazard with them and I have seen one or two burn to the ground. Electric motors. The motors themselves are limited as to how fast they can turn due to the weight of the armature. So you have a choice, put a transmission on it (Mustangs are a good example) or slow the vehicle down to about 65mph. Transmission means there is transmission fluid to replace. A manual gearbox would be ideal but since we've become conditioned that automatics are the way to go (something like 90% of American's can't drive a manual), automatic is going to be the only option most likely. Transaxles, or differential? Stuff I work on has a transaxle, still requires fluid changes. When a motor fails, it fails spectacularly. Smoke fire stink. Seen one burn the back half of the machine up when the motor failed. When an engine fails in a diesel or gas burner, it usually seizes and that's it. Sometimes it will eject parts but not often, and fire is extremely rare. Most of "us" on the site are smart enough to know that when the electric motor is failing and the vehicle is slowing down, and the little wrench light is on, PULL OVER and STOP..........BUT the soccer moms and probably 75% of Americans don't have that kind of smarts, it's slowing down so just push the gas pedal harder so we can get to soccer practice. Next thing you know you're sitting on teh side of the road in the heat or cold watching your little cute Tesla burn to the ground while the fire department is on the way. Then the possibility of more and differently trained fire departments exist because of ev's. Taxes go up to pay for it.

....there is an entire SLEW of problems that go with EV's and people don't understand. Think a little deeper into it and you'll see that we are fixing to be in for a set of big problems that nobody knows how to solve. Those that won't embrace EV's? You're gonna have to pay higher taxes on your gas burner. Guarantee that's coming. Same thing they do on everything else that they don't want, they tax it heavily so you can't afford it.

The disposal of all the new battery technologies and PV cells is exactly what I was referring to earlier. Cadmium is NASTY stuff. Lead poisoning is child's play compared to Cadmium poisoning. Kids will start being born with an extra arm sticking out of their forehead. While perhaps convenient for the kid, I'm not sure the anatomical mutations related to cadmium will be acceptable. Solar panels only last about 7-10 years before the efficiency dips enough to warrant replacement of the panels. Where are we gonna put 'em?

Demand for electrical energy is growing thanks to smart phones, hybrid vehicles and EV's. Personal comfort and convenience has probably had the greatest impact on power consumption. More people are getting old enough to control the thermostat, and living longer too, meaning it doesn't make much difference if the Baby Boom is over. We're all living longer, meaning more of us using power with more trinkets and doo-dads. Too many are confused about just how much an EV is going to contribute to pollution. Alternate energy systems are not going to keep up with demand.

 

[Old_Paint]

I am engineer and really expect there to be some bounds to a discussion such as this.

What is your definition of 'alternate' energy? Hydroelectric has been around long enough to not be considered ' alternate'. Also... do you really wish to include ALL forms of energy..... or restrict the discussion to electricity?

Can we start with the assumption that you really mean NON fossil fuel ELECTRICITY ?

Also, some of the above discussion has gone 'off topic'.... Generation, Storage, movement and consumption of electricity are very separate subjects.

In the end... MANY of the current methods of generating electricity are VERY inefficient (and bad for envrionment) when considering end-to-end lifespan of the entire process.

*) The OP already showed us some of the fallacies of wind-to-electricity
*) Ethanol in our gasoline is another goofy, government-funded scheme.
-- The cost of diesel-fuel to till, plant, harvest and extract the ethanol is FARRR more than the resultant energy. A side-effect to this makes the cost of FOOD go up by way of using the farmland to produce ethanol.
*) Solar-to-electric uses all kinds of nasty chemicals. Consumes a lot of farmland (here in Vermont) and disposal is fussy. Not to mention that not enough sunlight hits the earth even if we covered the entire planet with panels.
*) Theoretically, nuclear power is the cleanest and most-efficient. Humans have not perfected this yet.
*) Hydroelectric consumes a lot of land to generate power....but at least it is 'green'

The biggest issue is STORAGE of energy when the generation-source is 'spikey'
*) BATTERY technology needs a revolution before it is really useful.
-- nasty chemicals, bulky, heavy, slow to charge.
*) There are some promising results using GYROSCOPES. (magnetic bearings are the secret-sauce)
-- a gyroscope 'charges' slowly... but can release its stored energy VERY quickly.
*) SUPER CAPACITORS are interesting and may be useful when combined with other technologies.
-- SUPERCAPS can charge/drain nearly instantaneously because they store ELECTRONS in their native state. (not chemically like a battery)

Kinda neat what they do at Racoon Mountain generation facility in Tennessee. At night, when commercial and residential demands are low, they use the surplus generation from local hydro generation to pump water into mountain reservoirs which have a much higher elevation, ergo, higher head, to drive the same turbines that pumped the water up there as generation during the relatively shorter peak demand periods during the day. There is a lot of inefficiency, but other than maintenance costs, hydro power has no cost, so the energy to pump the water up the mountain is 'free'. There's certainly no cost to let it run back down the hill for peaking. We recently put in equipment up there for switching the equipment on that system.

TVA's always been on the cutting edge of hydro and nuclear power.

The Gyroscopes you mention have been around for quite some time for 'ride-through' UPS equipment. While they're not needed, an electric motor just spins a flywheel at very high speed with a very large mass, usually in a vacuum chamber to minimize windage and friction, and keep power requirements to a minimum. They don't last long, but just long enough for control systems to shut down rather than crash. Gonna take a lotta big 'uns to keep the lights on for very long in even a small city. Most have gone the way of the do-do bird, and have been replaced with new solid state back up systems.

SuperCaps have some issues of their own. The safety of working around the voltages they're capable of, as well as the self-charging characterists make them extremely dangerous. I've done a lot of cap-bank work in substations, and those things are DANGEROUS. Batteries? Lead = BAD. Worse than coal or fuel oil. BY FAR. Cadmium? Worse than lead. But, as you pointed out, there's simply no thought process for disposal of that kind of equipment that simply stops working when it gets old. When I see the acres and acres of solar panels, I think "where they gonna put that in 8 years when the efficiency drops below 50%?" Wind? Like it or not, the meme is true. The ROI on wind turbines is all but non-existent. GE has an entire division dedicated to the maintenance of those things. They used to borrow folks from our industrial services division. Dunno what they do now, because GE sold us like used farm equipment.

 

[Daylight]

Uhhhh, if I may: in Belgium and Holland (and most of Europe, I imagine), solar panels are contractually guaranteed to still have an 80% yield after 25 years. Which of course doesn't make any difference for their disposal issues... Given our lack of space, solar farms are very rare, but house and industrial building roofs are often covered in them. Not a nice sight of course, and there is no way I would disfigure my 17th-century house with them.

A Spanish company makes a completely invisible solar boiler system integrated in slate roofs ("Thermoslate"), which I intend to install and connect to the HE central heating system. We don't have a/c (and don't need it) thanks to thick stone walls, use warm water (from the pellet furnace and soon the solar boiler) to feed the laundry machine, light the wood burning stove when it gets chilly on rainy summer days (of which we have quite a lot), have LED lighting everywhere, keep the refrigerator in a cool room instead of in a heated kitchen, apply all the -reasonable- power-saving tips... As a result my power bill goes down a bit every year, even with the price (rather: tax) increases.

As for wind turbines, a 3MW turbine produces some 6.5 million kWh annually, and in its first six months of operation produces as much energy as its construction and erection has cost, after which it functions for another 15 to 20 years. And yes, they are a terrible eyesore unless erected in industrial estates, desert areas or offshore. I remember reading an article (still must have it somewhere - I should look for it) about the negative impact of injudiciously placed wind turbines on tourism in France: none of you want to travel to Pointe du Hoc and find the view marred by a bunch of wind turbines...

When I see the acres and acres of solar panels, I think "where they gonna put that in 8 years when the efficiency drops below 50%?" Wind? Like it or not, the meme is true. The ROI on wind turbines is all but non-existent. GE has an entire division dedicated to the maintenance of those things. They used to borrow folks from our industrial services division. Dunno what they do now, because GE sold us like used farm equipment.

 

[sheepfarmer]

I have watched hundreds of acres of land turned into solar farms. In some they made the land as flat as far as the eye could see before they built acres of solar panels on the land. Others simply push all the trees over leaving the hills and valleys but little to control the water run off in either style. The panels are to tall to work on as they do require maintenance and to short to grow even sheep under them. The maintenance is tremendous just to keep the weeds down. The amount of land that has now become worthless is amazing.

The heat that these large areas has already altered the weather locally. Wild life has been killed off and pushed off the land. They are ugly as sin so they are buying farms in remote areas to hide the panels.

Thank God we are going "green."

I have a small patch of solar panels in my back pasture, where the dirt is just about good enough to grow grass. They, after a year, seem to be adequate to power the farm net zero, with the power company collecting line useage charges only. They are high enough off the ground that the sheep can graze under them and any wiring etc is fenced off. The array is surrounded by an electric fence wire high enough for the sheep to go under but at a height to keep the horses away from it. It is not particularly visible to either me or my nearest neighbor. Last year I string trimmed the weeds and grass around the posts once. Otherwise the sheep kept it tidy just fine. I am happy to have a big chunk of my heating costs taken off propane with electric heat pumps. My point is just because some people put in arrays that are an ugly nuisance doesn't mean they have to be done that way. None of my barn or house roofs are sloping at the optimal angle for solar collection, but that would be an even better solution for a farm if it were planned for.

 

[skeets]

Im not an engineer but I did play one when I worked for the man. As Bruce stated, to decide one over the other there has to be a level playing field. And as such no field exists. Both, emit pollution of some type, be it CO2 or chemical compounds that are dangerous for an eternity . And GO GREEN sounds really like a wonderful idea to those that cannot think past their morning latté, it cannot work to the benefit of man kind,, At least not now! Does that mean old Doc Browns flux capacitor will ever exist, or that man will one day travel faster than or near the speed of light. No! Mans quest is boundless, but so is reality and the are laws of physics .
If we go back to high school we were taught, well at least those of us that acuity went to a school, we were taught,
Newton's Third Law of Motion states that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. What this means is that pushing on an object causes that object to push back against you, the exact same amount, but in the opposite direction.
Or more to the point cause and effect,,, noting a relationship between actions or events such that one or more are the result of the other or others.

So any conversation needs, again, to be apples to apples but it gun control, or abortion, or electric cars. Every one stop take a deep breath relax and get all cognitive thoughts in place, and then attempt to make your point,,,

So ends todays gospel

 

[JimmyJazz]

I spent an hour the other day watching YouTube interviews of Elon Musk. A very impressive human in my opinion. He is most certainly in the right place at the right time as far as exploiting the convergences in technologies.
I am pleased to share the planet with him. I might order a Cybertruck. My wife thinks it the ugliest vehicle ever made. Many countries are already committed to phasing out gas and diesel powered vehicles. The most difficult adaptation for me will be the life without a CD player.

 

[BigG]

I have a small patch of solar panels in my back pasture, where the dirt is just about good enough to grow grass. They, after a year, seem to be adequate to power the farm net zero, with the power company collecting line useage charges only. They are high enough off the ground that the sheep can graze under them and any wiring etc is fenced off. The array is surrounded by an electric fence wire high enough for the sheep to go under but at a height to keep the horses away from it. It is not particularly visible to either me or my nearest neighbor. Last year I string trimmed the weeds and grass around the posts once. Otherwise the sheep kept it tidy just fine. I am happy to have a big chunk of my heating costs taken off propane with electric heat pumps. My point is just because some people put in arrays that are an ugly nuisance doesn't mean they have to be done that way. None of my barn or house roofs are sloping at the optimal angle for solar collection, but that would be an even better solution for a farm if it were planned for.

These farms are hundreds of acres. Just think there are better ways to do this. Industrial / retail building could be cover with panels and reduce the impact of the farms. Covered parking lots could be pulling double duty. Covered parking and energy producer all in one. Areas around interstate intersections or airports could be used.

I think the small installs for a single house are a great idea. The roof of the barn or house would be my choice.

 

[dlsmith]

The town I live near leased a couple of unused acres on the sewage treatment plant property to an solar utility. They put in a large solar installation that is fed into the local grid, and provides 300 or 400 kilowatts, I forget the exact figure, enough to power a lot of homes in the area.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

old time ,basic 100 Amp service is 24KW, so that 400KW install would maybe power 16 homes.
Up here 200 Amp services have been the normal install for at least a decade or two.
The grid or 'system' has to be designed to carry/supply max power, 24/7. Yes, low demand at 3AM but at 5PM ,HUGE demand.
The big problem with solar is when the sun don't shine. You NEED some form of storage to feed the grid then. You also need a lot of panels to just put electrons into 'overnight' storage.

 

[random]

Solar and wind both need serious backup for when they are unable to produce, or are producing below max. That backup is rather impractical given the amount of energy that would need to be stored.

As for fully powering things with alternative energy (non-nuclear), here's some calculations that someone did on that: https://www.researchgate.net/public...battery_backup_would_it_take_to_power_Germany

From the abstract:

There are currently not enough raw materials available for a battery backup. A 14-day battery storage solution for Germany would exceed the 2020 global battery production by a factor of 4 to 5x. To produce the required batteries for Germany alone (or over 15% of EU’s electricity demand) would require mining, transportation and processing of 0,4-0,8 billion tons of raw materials every year (7 to 13 billion tons for one-time setup), and 6x more for Europe. The raw materials required include lithium, copper, cobalt, nickel, graphite, rare earths & bauxite, coal, and iron ore for aluminum and steel. The 2020 global production of lithium, graphite anodes, cobalt or nickel would not nearly suffice by a multiple factor to produce the batteries for Germany alone.

 

[skeets]

And that chillins brings us back to coal, oil and gas fired generators