Fixing hole in side of block

[chim]

"hoping" ????
I have never considered "hoping" to be a strategy for success!

That's the best I can offer. Even if I could make the trip to help him, I don't know as much about engine rebuilding as he does.

 

[Hugo Habicht]

Hello Joe,

does this engine need decompression to start? If yes, is there a flywheel missing at the front? In my opinion it cranks too slow to start. I have an old single cylinder tractor that requires decompression, crank it until it reaches speed, then close decompression to start. This needs a fairly big flywheel to store the energy from the starter which is too weak to crank fast enough with compression.

With that old lawn tractor I collected I had a similar problem, my jump leads were faulty causing a voltage drop and it cranked too slowly. Once I fixed the jump leads it cranked much faster and started immediately.

Is your cable cross section from battery to starter and from chassis back to battery big enough? Good electrical contact at battery and starter?

Also this spring (#140?). Has that to do with a regulator and could incorrect assembly lead to insufficient diesel injected?

Kind regards,
Hugo

 

[joesmith123]

p.p.s: did you have another look at this small spring? Do you not have pictures when you took everything apart?

Yes I listen, that spring is holding and you can feel the tension on the throttle

On my L185 it is pulled to the right (looking from the front of the engine) to provide zero compression and then when released there is a spring that pulls it back to the left and allows compression in all cylinders.

Yes yes I remembered, a year or so ago, you walked me through how to use that knob, I did NOT have it far enough in the proper direction to lose compression, but I updated the video after your post showing it spinning without compression

Further to that I think that your engine is spinning slowly and might not be able to fire off. There is no magic RPM for starting since I have gotten mine started on a nearly dead battery but yours seemed “slow”.

May need to charge the battery overnight or use two batteries to get it spinning faster?

Yes I elaborate on the entire setup now and maybe someone can trace an issue/problem, and soon I post pictures for yall to visualize it

Pickup truck is running with GOOD copper 6 gauge to a battery sitting next to the tractor, charging it, stays connected to it so it keeps it strong

Then I have 2 gauge wires coming from tractor, block and starter + terminal going to that battery on the ground

I will test voltage when pickup truck is running and see what the voltage is at the starter of the tractor

It seems that compression is so high, that starter cannot spin engine fast enough

That's the best I can offer.

You saying it puts it into our realm and raises its probably

With that old lawn tractor I collected I had a similar problem, my jump leads were faulty causing a voltage drop and it cranked too slowly. Once I fixed the jump leads it cranked much faster and started immediately.

Is your cable cross section from battery to starter and from chassis back to battery big enough? Good electrical contact at battery and starter?

Yes, soon I take pictures showing everything and we do voltage test on the starter to see how low voltage going when starter engaged

There seems to be a HUGE difference when starter is spinning engine without compression, then when it has compression, it comes to a screeching halt

My suspicion: new rings and pistons are making it hard for starter to spin engine fast enough to start it

Also, does the wiring have to be hooked up for the engine to run OR

long as it has diesel, and heated glow plug, and it spin with starter, it should start, it does NOT need that key/ignition/all that wiring to be properly put together

(please critique this statement, thank you)

Plan for today: diagnose the voltage when starter runs, show yall the voltage numbers, take off body panels, get entire tractor ready for paint while diagnosing the no start

Paint plan: take off seat and all orange parts, hit with compressed air, diesel, wire wheels, part cleaner, then compressed air again (in that order)

Get entire frame exposed and cleaned

Also, clear table area, make an area to paint many parts, close to tractor so you can hit it all in one shot

Up close tractor body

There are 3 different paints in this image on tractor frame

14 volts, ok now: get a voltage reading while starter engaged

Voltage reading with no compression and starter running

Up close exhaust ports, diesel coming out since it is not igniting, this is normal

Got it to run, panicked, shut it down

Yes, you just witnessed it's first startup


Filled it up with oil all the way on dip stick

Tried again

Didn't work, all that added oil cooled the system, and it likes a full throttle , I try again now

I think it is the power situation, it cranked way better earlier when that battery was stronger

And 6 gauge wires coming from truck not strong enough to give it the big power demand

ok yes I come up with idea: get 2 or 3 good batteries hooked up in parallel close to tractor, run 6 gauge wires to truck battery and charge them for multiple hours/overnight

That way, I can have bigger reserve for when doing experimentation

@Russell King

I want to run it for 5-10 minutes in its current state, that shouldn't overheat it, or maybe run it for 1 minute

Shut down: throttle down and how I show in this picture, push lever up

Started again

The trick: let glow plugs stay connected with power for up to 2-3 minutes before and during cranking

September 21, 2024

youtu.be

Another start longer period

September 21, 2024

youtu.be

Runaway feeling

Someone explain what you just witnessed in this clip

I heated glow plugs for 2 minutes before the clip and throttle was FULL while cranking on it, then you saw what happened. You can see me panicking trying to shut it down, nothing was working, I even took off thinking it was runaway.

My new plan, have big towel close by that I toss onto intake port and choke it.

Why didnt my method of shutting it down work until way later? Why did it look like it does not respond to the throttle? Or is it because:

Since I crank on it with full throttle, it is DUMPING diesel into chamber, then once it start, it consume all that big amount of diesel and doesnt care about what the throttle is telling it

I am nervous about starting it, I want to get into cleaning/painting/non dangerous tasks while I let it marinate

Taking off seat, fenders

Can't take off steering wheel, can't take off fuel tank cover

Got steering wheel nut off, sprayed diesel, hit with torch, I don't know how it come out

Up close, nut removed, somehow use clamps and such to pull steering wheel up

 

[retired farmer]

Looks encouraging but I am no mechanic. Joe, seems I am reading a chapter in a good book every day.
Best of luck to ya.

rr

 

[Russell King]

@joesmith123 - this thought just crossed my mind

Do you know how to stop the engine if it starts? It will overheat quickly in the current state so don’t let it run if it starts!

 

[Henro]

Well, you saw it start and run once.

What do you gain by running it further without having the radiator hooked up to the engine, and the cooling system filled? Seems like you could make a temporary set up fairly easily.

Or even maybe block the exit point from the block and fill the block with water and not worry about the radiator for a short run?

Myself, I wouldn’t take the risk of running the engine anymore without having water in the block… I’ve been around long enough to know that if things can go wrong, they will go wrong!

 

[Russell King]

@joesmith123

Congratulations!

I agree that it seemed like it was into a run away condition so you are lucky that it stopped running. I noticed some fluid leaking from the rectangular cover area in the video. Looked fairly thin so I am guessing it was diesel fuel but it could be engine oil.

I am not certain how I would proceed right now either but I would not start it again until you investigate why you lost throttle control, how much fluid is in the crankcase and such. Think about where it can get any type of oil or fuel and how it can get into the cylinders. Then investigate if that fluid is going down in volume.

I am no expert on this but it was not smoking excessivly or black smoke so that seemed to be burning diesel fuel. I have no idea how that small spring should be attached but it looked WRONG to me. The diagram you posted was no help. You might want to PM @North Idaho Wolfman and ask for his assistance. I will look into the work shop manual for my tractor and see if it shows anything about that. I think that is the real issue and the governor is not doing it’s job properly (but I am too far away and inexperienced to make any cogent suggestions.)

And I agree that you need to have some method to shut it down reliably if the throttle is not functioning properly. I would figure out something like a metal or plywood blocking mechanism for the air intake and have it close at hand next time you start the tractor.

And I would get it painted and get the radiator connected sooner rather than later. Or rig up some cooling system for the engine

And invest in a good trickle charger for your batteries if you have electricity near enough. If no electricity then you could use solar panels in the daytime.

You are not out of the woods yet but you should be seeing more brightness in front of you!

 

[Jim L.]

My new plan, have big towel close by that I toss onto intake port and choke it.

The engine when running will suck that towel in and eat it. Then it's tear it apart to clear valves and such. Check other above suggestions.

Good progress!

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

You are testing with the wrong pressure gauge
Diesel coming out exhaust ports is wrong, Bad leaking injectors.
Glow plugs absolute max 60 seconds, or the indicator glowing whichever happens first.
Your run away could be many different things.
Number 1, have the injectors professionally tested and rebuilt.

 

[Russell King]

@joesmith123 - if you edit a past post then it is not obvious that you have done that. I ASSUME that most people will go to the last post they read and start reading the next post. I don’t think I saw anything about the steering wheel when I read post 603 earlier but there are questions you are asking now that I normally would not have seen.

But back to the engine!
THAT SMALL SPRING IS INSTALLED INCORRECTLY! This is back several pages and you had it installed before the gear case was on.

In the Work Shop Manual (WSM) for my L185 it shows that small spring is attached to the gear case at the front end of the tractor and to the same lever as the larger spring. The connection point on the lever is a hole on the vertical portion of the lever near the 90 degree bend of the lever. That small spring is called the start spring!

The larger spring (governor spring) attaches to the same lever but the hole is the one that is the most upper hole and at the rear end of the lever. The front end attaches to the speed control plate (what you have been using trying to get the engine to slower RPMs.

Hopefully if you remove the rectangular cover and the speed lever you can get both springs out and back in properly.

See these two pages of the WSM

 

[Russell King]

See this thread for how the steering wheel may be removed

steering wheel

I am trying to test and probably change out a relay on my M4900SU. To lift off the dashboard to get better access to the relays. I need to remove the steering wheel, but can't get it off with a puller being careful not to break the plastic. Any suggestions ? Thank you.

www.orangetractortalks.com

 

[joesmith123]

THAT SMALL SPRING IS INSTALLED INCORRECTLY!

Up close of the springs

Starter spring wrong: it connects to the gearcase

Hook on gearcase that starter spring should be hooked to



I study those diagrams you showed with magnifying glass

I pull this image from your image, this is exactly what I needed to see

if you edit a past post then it is not obvious that you have done that. I ASSUME that most people will go to the last post they read and start reading the next post. I don’t think I saw anything about the steering wheel when I read post 603 earlier but there are questions you are asking now that I normally would not have seen.

I know what you mean, but I have too many different tasks and I dont want to flood the forum, I would rather fill one post with tons of progress/media than to keep posting

just always assume that I am going to make progress and I will update the last post

ok yes soon: take covers off and look closely at the springs, and study the thread of how they took off the steering wheel

First spring installed properly: hooked to right lever and to gearcase

Attached governor spring

@Russell King

I point to that pin you are talking about, it is on injection pump and how it come off is definitely not good

I now take stuff apart trying to get that pin in its place

Yes got pin in but fork seems bent downward

Picture is of its position in idle

That pin controls the intake of diesel, it was stuck full throttle before fixing it

Now: good time to go on painting detour while also solving the governor problem

Other governor in my hand, see how they are flush and one inside engine has one fork bent downward?

 

[Russell King]

Looking at picture #1 in post 612 and shown as attachment 1 below. Notice that the U shaped groove is empty.
Then the diagram (second attachment below)shows the same U shaped groove with a pin in it.

Your assembly looks different and I assume it is not installed properly.

View attachment 138206

View attachment 138203

 

[joesmith123]

Got steering wheel off

Spray diesel, hit with torch, then air chisel

Wiring harness and front cover

Clean entire chassis

Also get another pallet table where you put test of parts that need painted blue

First cleaning, front facing brushes on battery drill, dip in diesel, screw driver to get hard to reach areas

 

[Hugo Habicht]

Hello Joe,

that's great that you got the engine running !

Wrt the cables, I am not sure if I understood that correctly but you mentioned 6 gauge wire to the starter and 2 gauge wire from the frame back to the battery. The current flows in a circle, so both wires have to be decent cross section. Only the wire to the starter solenoid can be thinner.

Kind regards,
Hugo

 

[Runs With Scissors]

People saying use oily sprays or gloves, NO

During this part of build, you need to FEEL every detail, you have to move slow there are tons of sharp objects all over. Gloves will hinder your feeling and will hold dirt for different reasons

This is exactly what they taught me in my Engine Rebuilding 101 class, back when I attended the Helen Keller Institute of Automotive Technology.

I'll have to check the schedule but I think they play Perdue next week......"GO BLIND SQUIRRELS!!!!!!!"

 

[Russell King]

View attachment 138220

Other governor in my hand, see how they are flush and one inside engine has one fork bent downward?

You may be able to move the pin over to align with the slot and get it into the slot and move the arm up. I guess you could have bent it but it seems pretty stout. I can’t exactly tell how those two parts are going to move, but they seem to be able to move independently from each other.

Try to GENTLY move them around and see what happens.

From looking online it seems like the small spring (Start spring) in yours is stretched much more than it should be. But I honestly can’t say that for sure. I also assume that start spring is pulling the rack back into a position that allows the engine to start and idle, since you have the lever that cuts fuel off to stop the engine.

Since you have another assembly of the two levers, you should be able to figure out how they are supposed to move and adjust the fuel rack. First thing to look at is how to get the pin in the slot!

If it was me, I would order both of those springs new and replace them. But I can understand you may want to keep control of costs and have alternative springs to use.

 

[joesmith123]

Try to GENTLY move them around and see what happens.

I did get the pin back in, here is video

I feel it is too low, should be higher up on the pin

Runaway problem solved: I post video yesterday when I first opened that hole to look inside, and we see the pin fully right (full throttle) and we see the fork lodged down underneath it

This was right after the runaway start, I have no clue what shut it down, it could have kept going and going, truly the most out of control that I felt, its a miracle it shut down

Either I installed it incorrectly, or when moving the throttle all the way up and down, it caused it to come out, very very bad

Another possible problem:

I point to a nut that I loosened thinking it was one of the bolts hold on gear case, nope

That is a idle adjustment (my thinking), I tried tightening it back, but I dont know if I altered the adjustment

Not moving forward until these 2 issues solved: why the fork is bent down, and how to adjust what I point to

Is it possible to do test runs with this port open? If so, I would do that

Also, have these plans for choking engine:

1. have a cutter ready on the rubber diesel hose, in case it run away, you just squeeze cutter and cut the hose and it'll die off
2. put the manifold intake, and do like you said have a block ready in your pocket, ready for it,
3: dont forget about the diesel cutoff on left side of tank

never again I run test on engine without these kinds of protocols

Here is how she looks after first light cleaning

 

[Russell King]

I think you are safe on the tall nut (#50) unless you moved the shorter (#30) nut under it.

But again I am not familiar with that part on the tractor.

In the video of you manipulating the speed control, was that some other engine running in the background? The RPM was steady so I assume that was some other engine running.

To control a true diesel runaway (where the fuel is coming from an alternate source like the engine oil) the air intake is the ONLY sure way to limit the RPM. If the diesel fuel is not what the engine is running on, cutting the diesel supply is useless.

 

[joesmith123]

Lubing the latch, stress testing it

I might take out injection pump and pry up the fork that hold the latch that control diesel

Ran power wire across shop off of floor, greased machine

While letting the governor/latch/springs/front adjustment data all come in, I go on small detour of wire wheeling body, hitting nooks with files, greasing all the fitting now that they are visible, hit it hard with compressed air then part cleaner

The rear wheels are in my way but maybe are too heavy for me to put back on if I take them off, let me know if you want me to take wheels off and hit the axles very well with the cleaner/wire wheel/paint

If those wheels are off, I can clean axle and area way better and get nice coat of paint on transmission, but my laziness saying dont take wheels off

Later, go grab all the parts that need painted blue (manifolds/brackets of all kind/front axle/), bring them closer to area of cleaning/painting, get them ready for paint

Do yall think 1 gallon will be enough to hit entire tractor and all other parts in one shot? I do have paint thinner that might help make it work

I try to hit it all in one shot, and then later decide if we need more paint

Put rear on blocks, take wheels off

The wheels feel like they have water in them

There she is, fully revealed

@Russell King

Yes yes, I also reviewed footage and that's what triggered me to bring up that front adjustment

Don't worry, I maybe get wsm and get to bottom of it

Later I show you inside where the pin moves forward and back on gearcase to stop fork

When I messed it up, maybe that let the fork go too far forward allowing the pin on injection pump to climb over it

Best new trick, strong big brush, bucket of diesel, good for poking tight areas

Hit all nook and cranny with brush, wear glove, hit hard with compressed air, wire wheel, then more air/brush, use files to get tight areas