Early 80s L275DT Cold Start

[ve9aa]

You won't insult me. Never underestimate my ability to completely misunderstand or have no knowledge of an entire concept.

My multimeter has those settings (x1, x10, x1k) and I assumed they were just multipliers. Because you were talking about low numbers like 1Ohm, I initially had it set to the 1x. It did give a tone on each plug though. I didn't think to measure anything else though

Speaking of misunderstanding...I had the positive lead of the multimeter on the threaded tip of the glow plug when it was installed, and the negative on a ground. I did not attach both leads to the plug like the pic above indicates

So you'll know...I am not trying to insult you. Not at all....just trying to suss out how much you know about running the meter, so we're all on the same page.

Normally a meter won't BEEP if in pure Ohms mode. (normally). You're meter may have some setting I am not familiar with which combines resistance (Ohms) with a tone (continuity). Next time, turn off the beep as it may affect the accuracy of the readings.

Because we're only talking 0.5Ohms or maybe even as high as 1 or 2 Ohms, you *NEED* to touch your red and black meter leads together. You have to do it. That way you can see:
Do I have a good enough battery in my meter to even measure this low of a resistance?
ie: if your meter reads 10, 20 or 1000 Ohms, it's either NFG, your battery is low, or your leads are shot.
If you meter leads themselves, touched together read 1 Ohm or less, we're in business.

Moving on, unhook all the busbar nuts (wire) from your glow plugs.

Touch/press firmly, the black lead to the engine, somewhere clean near the GP's, push it right on there real good...even move it around a little.
Touch the red lead to the nut on the GP.
What's the reading?

You said "50" and that's cool. I believe you, but unless something really weird is going on, that's not a possible number. It's gonna have to be 1 or 2 Ohms (max..depending on your meter leads resistance)
or
it's gonna be very very high....in the kilo Ohms or Mega Ohms range.

Now, I will repeat that I am not an authority on GP's, so some tractor guy may weigh in telling of GP's in partial failure mode or something that I am not aware of....unlikely, but possible. Tractors are not really my thing, but I know electrical fairly well.

That's enough from me tonight.

rereading this it almost sounds like I am "talking down" to you, but I assure you, I am only trying to assist and help you get your Dad's tractor home. That's all.

Cheers from NB, Canada

-Mike

 

[ve9aa]

Meter reads .2 ohms with leads shorted so if we believe all of that the plug is .7 ohm. I believe the 103 in the NGK part number indicates 10.3V. Using those numbers my arithmetic gets me very close to 150 watts. Nice round number

Dan

I=E/R....I=10.3/0.7=14.7A
P=I(squared) R.....14.7(squared) * 0.7 = 151.55watts

Nothing wrong with your calculator good sir !!!!

 

[TheOldHokie]

I=E/R....I=10.3/0.7=14.7A
P=I(squared) R.....14.7(squared) * 0.7 = 151.55watts

Nothing wrong with your calculator good sir !!!!

Yeah - and it even makes phone calls....

Dan

 

[forrest carver]

So you'll know...I am not trying to insult you. Not at all....just trying to suss out how much you know about running the meter, so we're all on the same page.

Normally a meter won't BEEP if in pure Ohms mode. (normally). You're meter may have some setting I am not familiar with which combines resistance (Ohms) with a tone (continuity). Next time, turn off the beep as it may affect the accuracy of the readings.

Because we're only talking 0.5Ohms or maybe even as high as 1 or 2 Ohms, you *NEED* to touch your red and black meter leads together. You have to do it. That way you can see:
Do I have a good enough battery in my meter to even measure this low of a resistance?
ie: if your meter reads 10, 20 or 1000 Ohms, it's either NFG, your battery is low, or your leads are shot.
If you meter leads themselves, touched together read 1 Ohm or less, we're in business.

Moving on, unhook all the busbar nuts (wire) from your glow plugs.

Touch/press firmly, the black lead to the engine, somewhere clean near the GP's, push it right on there real good...even move it around a little.
Touch the red lead to the nut on the GP.
What's the reading?

You said "50" and that's cool. I believe you, but unless something really weird is going on, that's not a possible number. It's gonna have to be 1 or 2 Ohms (max..depending on your meter leads resistance)
or
it's gonna be very very high....in the kilo Ohms or Mega Ohms range.

Now, I will repeat that I am not an authority on GP's, so some tractor guy may weigh in telling of GP's in partial failure mode or something that I am not aware of....unlikely, but possible. Tractors are not really my thing, but I know electrical fairly well.

That's enough from me tonight.

rereading this it almost sounds like I am "talking down" to you, but I assure you, I am only trying to assist and help you get your Dad's tractor home. That's all.

Cheers from NB, Canada

-Mike

First, I don't think you're talking down to me at all, you're helping and I appreciate it. Thank you for the patience.

Second, I agree it's weird, that's why I said my meter was all over the place. Although I did touch the leads together to verify there was 0 resistance before doing anything. One issue is that I think I was grounding on a scuffed up section of the loader, not the engine, so maybe the proximity caused a problem?

This is my multimeter, looks like the pic cut off the top but you know what it looks like anyway. I had it set to X1. The tone I was referring to is the continuity buzzer. According to the manual, "Buzzer sounds at less than 100 ohms"

 

[Russell King]

Well, that was a disappointing day. Could not get it going. I tried using a heat gun and cranked it for hours.

I'm sure the glow plugs are bad but the test was inconclusive. My meter was reading all over the place but most often "better than bad, worse than good" which doesn't make sense to me.

Ran a wire from the positive both to the glow plug indicator (it smoked a little initially) and directly to the glow plugs, nothing.

Removed the two rearmost glow plugs with struggle but can't remove the third one without an antimatter wrench so 2 will have to do.

Tried to bump start it via towing but the bucket was stuck tilted down. Is there a way to manipulate the bucket controls without the engine running, like a hand crank? We used jacks and dunnage, it was a PITA

Is bump starting even an option? Once we got in place to do it I realized I didn't know how and didn't want to break something. Also I'm just now realizing the glow plugs weren't even in place at that time.

Tried loading it in the trailer but it's slightly too wide and as mentioned, well above weight limit

As for the ignition, here's a better, but still bad, picture. As you can see, the lower terminal of the glow plug indicator leads to nothing, where is that supposed to go? Is it worth troubleshooting this or should I get a new wiring harness?

Sorry for the long post

I Will try to answer your questions
The tractor can be pull started but I would not do that to a tractor with a loader on it without having the loader blocked up for safety. In reality it is dangerous and I would avoid it.

You may have to remove the intake manifold to get the third glow plug out but leave that until after it is running.. I believe it will start on two cylinders and then the third one will kick off.

It would definitely not run without the glow plugs installed so they have to be replaced before you try to start it again.

The wiring is a mess but don’t worry about it now until the tractor is running. The wiring is simple and can be repaired or replaced with a new harness after the tractor is proven to be worth it.

The bottom connection on t the glow plug indicator is the connection point from the battery to switch to glow plug indicator to glow plugs path. The top connection should have two wires connected to it. One running to the glow plugs the other coming from the crank position on the switch but you can ignore that for now.

I can send you a operator manual and wiring diagram if you want. Just don’t post your email address normally type it out but use “dot com” instead of the correct format.

You may want to rent a trailer and then pull the tractor onto it. Running the pulling cable underneath the loader bucket should lift it off the ground or pull it rear end first. But you have to plan how to get it off the trailer also.

 

[forrest carver]

Thank you. I would love that diagram and manual...I was able to find the EVs but not with the individual wires in the harness broken down. Could you send it to forrestRcarver at gmail dot com?

My uncle has a flatbed so I can get it home if push comes to shove, but it will still be a PITA with the bucket acting the way that it is and he's a busy guy. I would love to just get it started at her house and drive it home.

To be clear, you're saying to tackle the wiring, indicator, ignition, etc. once we're sure the machine will start.

If so, my plan now is to order 3 glow plugs, install two of them, and then try connecting the wire from the positive directly to a glow plug (or two, connected by a bus?) for 15+ seconds. I assume the indicator can/should be disconnected for this step.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Thank you. I would love that diagram and manual...I was able to find the EVs but not with the individual wires in the harness broken down. Could you send it to forrestRcarver at gmail dot com?

My uncle has a flatbed so I can get it home if push comes to shove, but it will still be a PITA with the bucket acting the way that it is and he's a busy guy. I would love to just get it started at her house and drive it home.

To be clear, you're saying to tackle the wiring, indicator, ignition, etc. once we're sure the machine will start.

If so, my plan now is to order 3 glow plugs, install two of them, and then try connecting the wire from the positive directly to a glow plug (or two, connected by a bus?) for 15+ seconds. I assume the indicator can be disconnected for this step.

Install new glow plugs and connect all bus wires. Jumper battery to any point on glow plug bus for app. 20 seconds then manually operate decompress lever, crank engine, and release decompress lever as soon as engine spins up. You should get some indication of firing - black smoke and/or rpm increase.

If it internittently hits on a cylinder or two but wont fully start stop cranking and repeat as above.

If you are not getting any exhaust smoke using that procedure you have other issues - e.g. fuel or compression.

Dan

 

[ve9aa]

First, I don't think you're talking down to me at all, you're helping and I appreciate it. Thank you for the patience.

Second, I agree it's weird, that's why I said my meter was all over the place. Although I did touch the leads together to verify there was 0 resistance before doing anything. One issue is that I think I was grounding on a scuffed up section of the loader, not the engine, so maybe the proximity caused a problem?

This is my multimeter, looks like the pic cut off the top but you know what it looks like anyway. I had it set to X1. The tone I was referring to is the continuity buzzer. According to the manual, "Buzzer sounds at less than 100 ohms"
View attachment 86653

Oooooh- Analog -OK then. The directions change slightly.

OK, so next time you're using it, just put your meter on the very bottom setting (the green X1) and don't use the ))) setting a few above it. (that's for beeper and presumably the needle moves too....don't use it for fine measurements like you're doing.

When you touch your meter leads together, you'll be able to use the red "volume control"(upper left in your pic) to "zero" the meter, so then you can ignore everything I said about adding/subtracting the resistance of the leads. SOmetimes analog is just better at certain stuff.
I had no idea we were dealing with analog. If you can't get it to zero, you've either:
-blown a fuse
-toasted your meter
-low battery
-high resistance in your leads.
(It's usually the battery in these guys if you can't quite get the needle to go all the way over to the right (zero Ohms)

You'll want your black lead where you have it and your red in the V/Ohm/A banana plug socket. (lower right in your pic)

If your GP is good, you'll see the needle BARELY move left to the first or maybe second tick mark on your green scale. Looks like the first major mark is 10 (on the X1 scale, that would be 10 Ohms)

HTH

 

[forrest carver]

Install new glow plugs and connect all bus wires. Jumper battery to any point on glow plug bus for app. 20 seconds then manually operate decompress lever, crank engine, and release decompress lever as soon as engine spins up. You should get some indication of firing - black smoke and/or rpm increase.

If it internittently hits on a cylinder or two but wont fully start stop cranking and repeat as above.

If you are not getting any exhaust smoke using that procedure you have other issues - e.g. fuel or compression.

Dan

Thanks. Because I can't remove the frontmost (and presumed dead) glow plug, can I just replace the first two, connect them together with the bus wire, and proceed as you suggested?

Out of curiosity, what is the light gray smoke that I see coming out of the stack when cranking? Knowing now that the smoke should be black leads me to believe it's not getting fuel. I did see the bulb fill up when turning on the fuel, though.

One final thing that I should have mentioned from the get go. A little bit of smoke seems to be leaking out of the connection between the stack and the engine. It's quite rusty to boot

 

[forrest carver]

Oooooh- Analog -OK then. The directions change slightly.

OK, so next time you're using it, just put your meter on the very bottom setting (the green X1) and don't use the ))) setting a few above it. (that's for beeper and presumably the needle moves too....don't use it for fine measurements like you're doing.

When you touch your meter leads together, you'll be able to use the red "volume control"(upper left in your pic) to "zero" the meter, so then you can ignore everything I said about adding/subtracting the resistance of the leads. SOmetimes analog is just better at certain stuff.
I had no idea we were dealing with analog. If you can't get it to zero, you've either:
-blown a fuse
-toasted your meter
-low battery
-high resistance in your leads.
(It's usually the battery in these guys if you can't quite get the needle to go all the way over to the right (zero Ohms)

You'll want your black lead where you have it and your red in the V/Ohm/A banana plug socket. (lower right in your pic)

If your GP is good, you'll see the needle BARELY move left to the first or maybe second tick mark on your green scale. Looks like the first major mark is 10 (on the X1 scale, that would be 10 Ohms)

HTH

OK the meter is definitely good, I have the leads in the right spot and it goes straight to 0 (even further right, actually) when I touch the leads together. The needle was going somewhere in the middle of the range (50Ohms) when I tested the plugs, but I don't doubt there was some level of user error, either in where I had the setting or where I was putting the leads.

In any event, I'm more than happy to assume all the glow plugs are bad and spend $30-$50 on new plugs, especially now that I succeeded in removing two of them. The local Napa can have them by this afternoon so I'll probably install them and give it another shot tomorrow morning.

Regarding the wire from the positive battery terminal to the bus. Could I have messed this up as well? I combined 4x 16ga wires to create a 10ga wire. The wire sparked on both sides when touching it to the positive terminal and to the glow plug (and indicator) so current was definitely flowing.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Thanks. Because I can't remove the frontmost (and presumed dead) glow plug, can I just replace the first two, connect them together with the bus wire, and proceed as you suggested?

Out of curiosity, what is the light gray smoke that I see coming out of the stack when cranking? Knowing now that the smoke should be black leads me to believe it's not getting fuel. I did see the bulb fill up when turning on the fuel, though.

One final thing that I should have mentioned from the get go. A little bit of smoke seems to be leaking out of the connection between the stack and the engine. It's quite rusty to boot

Hook all three plugs together. I would worry less about the color of the smoke and more about just getting some which is a sign of ignition. Exhaust leaks come later. If you are getting some smoke I am hopeful that two good glow plugs will move this situation forward. Rightly or wrongly I have assumed for some time now that the old ones were dead.

Dan

 

[forrest carver]

Hook all three plugs together. I would worry less about the color of the smoke and more about just getting some which is a sign of ignition. Exhaust leaks come later. If you are getting some smoke I am hopeful that two good glow plugs will move this situation forward. Rightly or wrongly I have assumed for some time now that the old ones were dead.

Dan

Yes, it seems pretty likely that they're all dead to me anyway. So I will install the two new plugs, connect the two buses to join all three together, and proceed. I will just get a length of 10ga wire today to jump them, in case my homemade wire was the weak link.

 

[ve9aa]

I think you're in good shape with TheOldHokie's help.
(what is an old Hokie anyways? )

 

[TheOldHokie]

(what is an old Hokie anyways? )

Seventy plus year old alum of Virginia Polytechnic Institute. Previously known as VPI and now popularly known as Virginia Tech. You can read all about him here - he is obviously a slackard when it comes to website maintenance:

Windy Ridge Farm

Dan

 

[Russell King]

Manuals are mailed

 

[forrest carver]

Manuals are mailed

Received, thanks Russell!

 

[Russell King]

See this site for information on the smoke colors

Diesel Smoke Diagnosis Guide - White, Grey, Black, Blue - learn diesels

We are going to cover the main types of diesel smoke and the causes in this article. If you are […]

learndiesels.com

 

[forrest carver]

Still no dice. I replaced the two glow plugs that I could and jumped them to the battery. Sparks on connection and the bus was warm to the touch after. I did check the fuel line this visit to ensure it was getting fuel. If you have any other ideas let me know but unfortunately at this point I will likely need to hire a mechanic or trailer it somewhere, as I've used up about as much spare time as my wife/kids will allow. I feel sorry for myself, but also sorry to all of you especially Russell King for the time you spent helping me in vain. If it ever does get started I will let you know what it was. Dollars to donuts it will be something very simple!

 

[Russell King]

Too bad

Unless it was damaged by the ether it will probably be something easy to get it running.

There was a recent thread here where the guy got his grandfathers tractor running after it had set for 10 years. He basically put glow plugs and a new battery and got it going.

You may be able to get the dealer to pick it up and diagnose it.

 

[ve9aa]

Man....I was really rooting for you, I was.
You need fuel, air and heat (compression) and all at the right time, to get it running.
Maybe you also need to wiggle your nose just the right way or hold your left foot up and turn in a circle 3 times.

I was about SURE you were gonna report back big success with a good battery and at least 2 known good glow plugs.