Back to HST problum

[ve9aa]

I am SURE we're all trying to help you....but I am just going to ask........why do you seem so hesitant to just replace the cheapie tractor supply fluid with the proper Kubota stuff? (and who knows what was in it before)

(maybe I missed something)

 

[GreensvilleJay]

from the spec sheet.....
...
Warning: ULTRA J20A Plus Utility Tractor Fluid is primarily designed for use in older equipment manufactured before 1990 or for aging machinery where frequent fluid replacement is required

Its viscosity is comparable to a SAE 20 crankcase fluid or an ISO 68 industrial oil for general purpose applications.

While it does say 'Kubota:UDT' , it doesn't list the specs which you NEED to compare to the UDT specs.

I did pour a pint of Walmart 'universal tractor fluid' into the Cub Cadet HST today, to top it up after 22 years of service but there is NO way I'd sump any 'UTF' into MY 4 year old Kubota !

 

[ferguson]

hmm, while the oil may be 'clean' ,it could be the wrong 'type' of oil for that tractor !
JD speced SAE30 for a series of 'riders', and yes, it 'worked' BUT the MFR of the HST said to use SYNTHETIC, 20W50(?). If you caught the HST in time,totally cleaned it,used the CORRECT oil, you saved the HST..otherwise it was a slow death ('can't get up hill' syndrome...)
[/Q

I am SURE we're all trying to help you....but I am just going to ask........why do you seem so hesitant to just replace the cheapie tractor supply fluid with the proper Kubota stuff? (and who knows what was in it before)

(maybe I missed something)

Thought it was a engine / fuel problum / had a leaking fuel pump / went through that hole system & on the 1000hr service nothing on magnet / filters were dated 4/19 only 1023 hrs now

 

[ferguson]

Ok Guess there no need to waste Kubota udt oil ( after 23 hrs from fluid & filter change ) IMG2601 off the Magnet / Img2602 filter element

Other filter clean not a speck

 

[GreensvilleJay]

It's NOT about the how 'clean' the oil is, it's whether or not it's the CORRECT oil, as required by Kubota.

I run the the WRONG oil in my $1500 diesel forklift even though it's 'clean'. The ONLY reason I can, is that the forklift is mid70s, and needs a $6K rebuild. IF I ever rebuild it, it WILL get the OEM required oil in it, NOT a jug of this and a quart of that even though the filters will be clean.

 

[D2Cat]

This thread seems to be a tease for those who are willing to respond to a cry for help! OP wants advise but argues/disagrees with what is offered. Just keeps the forum busy on a slow summer day.

 

[ve9aa]

The longer this thread goes on, the more I am leaning towards a possible "troll" (I hope I am wrong)
<snip>

 

[Henro]

The longer this thread goes on, the more I am leaning towards a possible "troll"

My gut tells me not so. But I do agree there seems to be some resistance to advice...

Anyway, the OP does come back with updates and is trying in his own way to find the answer, even if somewhat denying advice posted here.

I have noticed that some people tend to ask for advice, and then tend to try to convince themselves that what they are thinking is the correct answer...when it might not be.

Also some people are better at expressing themselves than others are.

My vote would be that the OP is a person with a problem, and not a troll...

 

[ve9aa]

My gut tells me not so. But I do agree there seems to be some resistance to advice...

Anyway, the OP does come back with updates and is trying in his own way to find the answer, even if somewhat denying advice posted here.

I have noticed that some people tend to ask for advice, and then tend to try to convince themselves that what they are thinking is the correct answer...when it might not be.

Also some people are better at expressing themselves than others are.

My vote would be that the OP is a person with a problem, and not a troll...

Henro

You're probably right and I honestly hope I am wrong.

Have a great day, all....and OP, listen to these guys...they;'re tractor experts ! (I have some knowledge too, but tractors are not my expertise)

 

[rbargeron]

Before this long thread heads off the tracks into talk of "trolling" we should all take a breather and recognize a component that hasn't been mentioned yet but could be responsible for the OP's well-described original symptoms.

A few posts back in this discussion, pictures were posted showing a typical direct lever-cotrolled HST unit as used on B-series tractors. But that type HST is not what the L3130 has. The smaller tractors (B's) use this design, but the L3130 uses the next bigger size HST. Because the engine is bigger, speed can't be controlled with just a foot pedal and lever. These larger HST's have a servo-mechanism (regulating valve and hydraulic cylinder) between the foot pedal and swashplate. The servo-mechanism function is to adjust the swashplate hydraulically in response to the foot pedal position. It interprets pedal position as the "desired" speed, and applies hydraulic force to move the swashplate to the correct angle for that speed.

It is possible for the regulator arm to wear, allowing control of the swashplate to become too loose. Its possible for the "setpoint" to drift, allowing the system to call for more speed than was intended - thus loading the engine and bogging it down when the pedal is pressed a small amount.

This might help explain several things cited so far in this thread:
1. it would ONLY affect the wheel-travel speed (nothing to do with pto)
2. it would be most noticeable in H - less in M, even less in L
3. being a condition arising from part wear, it would become gradually worse over time
4. it would only be partly affected by oil viscosity - (type and temperature)
5. the engine would lug, making black smoke (un-burned fuel) which it does.

The machine should be checked out by an experienced HST person, someone who knows the several HST generations - this version is the next after what my L48 has.

The regulator can be removed and inspected without splitting the tractor (about 2 gal of trans fluid needs to be drained - use a clean bucket and cloth filter so fluid can be poured back). Someone on TBN posted a few years back about a severely worn HST regulator arm - with pictures - I'll try to find the link. EDIT: here's the link

As always, prompt good-natured refund if theory is bogus. Dick B.

 

[Henro]

A few posts back in this discussion, pictures were posted showing a typical lever-cotrolled HST unit as used on B-series tractors. But the hand-controlled lever type HST is not what the L3130 has.

Confused by this. Neither my BX or my B2910 have any hand control lever other than setting the engine RPM. (or operating the loader, or 3PH position I guess)

What is a "hand controlled HST?" Never heard that term used before...

 

[rbargeron]

I should have been clearer -

What I meant to point out was that, on smaller tractors, a direct-acting lever (whether by hand or by foot) moves the swashplate, changing the wheel speed. The bigger machines have more power & torque so they need "power assist" to control the swashplate - hence the pedal-operated servo control. The WSM's for each tractor model including the L3130 have a group of pages describing the servo's operation.

My whole point is that the regulator/cylinder servo is a part in the HST transmission that could be causing the bogging down of Ferguson's L3130 - and should be investigated.

The difficulty of hydrostatic drives is that despite being used in many thousands of machines, they are not well-understood among their fans, owners, or even tractor dealers. Dick B

 

[ferguson]

My gut tells me not so. But I do agree there seems to be some resistance to advice...

Anyway, the OP does come back with updates and is trying in his own way to find the answer, even if somewhat denying advice posted here.

I have noticed that some people tend to ask for advice, and then tend to try to convince themselves that what they are thinking is the correct answer...when it might not be.

Also some people are better at expressing themselves than others are.

My vote would be that the OP is a person with a problem, and not a troll...

Not trolling any body /went through like all fuel system like all were saying in the beginning / ALL said in the start did not sound like a HST problum / NOW going through trans. Just want all input GOOD, BAED or INDIFFERENT / Also talking with Kubota service man / just went to see him with the cut open filters / just want to go through every thing possible i can / Before i just oil in it & Pray / I AGEN WANT TO THANK ALL FOR THERE INPUT

 

[Henro]

Not trolling any body /went through like all fuel system like all were saying in the beginning / ALL said in the start did not sound like a HST problum / NOW going through trans. Just want all input GOOD, BAED or INDIFFERENT / Also talking with Kubota service man / just went to see him with the cut open filters / just want to go through every thing possible i can / Before i just oil in it & Pray / I AGEN WANT TO THANK ALL FOR THERE INPUT

Just a small point for consideration. It has been reported many times that using SUD2 rather than UDT quiets HST noise.

I assume this may be true. If it is, this would indicate even using Kubota approved oil make a difference in some way.

Could using different oil make a difference too? Don’t know but I would think maybe. Nothing to do with clean or dirty oil. Everything to do with oil formulation.

 

[RCW]

I AGEN WANT TO THANK ALL FOR THERE INPUT

ferguson - -

Everyone is trying to help. It's the way OTT works.

I ran out of ideas, so I've been out for a while.

I still wish you the best to get it figured out.

 

[ferguson]

Just a small point for consideration. It has been reported many times that using SUD2 rather than UDT quiets HST noise.

I assume this may be true. If it is, this would indicate even using Kubota approved oil make a difference in some way.

Could using different oil make a difference too? Don’t know but I would think maybe. Nothing to do with clean or dirty oil. Everything to do with oil formulation.

have kubota udt2 super / just wanting to do everything posable to clean out system first /before refilling/ took the cooler out today & piping & hoses /flushed out & blew out all

 

[rbargeron]

I'm late to the discussion here but I think the hydrostatic transmission may be overloading the engine, causing it to bog down - see posts #110 and #112. Its regulator/cylinder might be malfunctioning

 

[Henro]

Before this long thread heads off the tracks into talk of "trolling" we should all take a breather and recognize a component that hasn't been mentioned yet but could be responsible for the OP's well-described original symptoms.

A few posts back in this discussion, pictures were posted showing a typical direct lever-cotrolled HST unit as used on B-series tractors. But that type HST is not what the L3130 has. The smaller tractors (B's) use this design, but the L3130 uses the next bigger size HST. Because the engine is bigger, speed can't be controlled with just a foot pedal and lever. These larger HST's have a servo-mechanism (regulating valve and hydraulic cylinder) between the foot pedal and swashplate. The servo-mechanism function is to adjust the swashplate hydraulically in response to the foot pedal position. It interprets pedal position as the "desired" speed, and applies hydraulic force to move the swashplate to the correct angle for that speed.

It is possible for the regulator arm to wear, allowing control of the swashplate to become too loose. Its possible for the "setpoint" to drift, allowing the system to call for more speed than was intended - thus loading the engine and bogging it down when the pedal is pressed a small amount.

This might help explain several things cited so far in this thread:
1. it would ONLY affect the wheel-travel speed (nothing to do with pto)
2. it would be most noticeable in H - less in M, even less in L
3. being a condition arising from part wear, it would become gradually worse over time
4. it would only be partly affected by oil viscosity - (type and temperature)

The machine should be checked out by an experienced HST person, someone who knows the several HST generations - this version is the next after what my L48 has in it .

The regulator can be removed and inspected without splitting the tractor (trans fluid needs to be drained). Someone on TBN posted a few years back about a severely worn HST regulator arm - with pictures - I'll try to find the link. EDIT: here's the link

As always, prompt good-natured refund if theory is bogus. Dick B.

Interesting thought.

In the case of the thread you referenced there was mechanical wear, with the net affect being the tractor would only move slowly, after the directional pedal was pushed close to the max speed position. Even with mechanical slop, there was no drift reported. (or if so, I missed it)

The hydraulic servo-mechanism which you refer to must simply be a power amplifier, that physically positions the swashplate to match the position of the directional pedal.

I understand you to be saying that something may have changed in the hydraulic servo-mechanism that has messed up the relationship between the position of the directional pedal and the position of the swashplate. So that the position of the swashplate may not match the position of the directional pedal. There might even be drift, causing the swashplate to vary in position when the directional pedal is held steady in one position.

If this were the case, how would one verify it through observation?

Apparently the tractor does not move on its own when the directional pedal is centered, so spurious drift likely is not happening then.

Could one try moving the tractor on a flat surface, and watch how the speed changes with respect to directional pedal position? In other words, if the tractor reached max speed at half pedal, and went no faster as the pedal was depressed further, this could indicate an incorrect relationship between the pedal and swash plate position.

If speed held constant at one point of the directional pedal, position drift due to something being wrong in the hydraulic servo-mechanism might not be indicated.

After reading your post, if I were having the problem the OP has, I would try to eliminate the possibility you are suggesting (if I am understanding your point correctly).

In other words, if the tractor was reaching max speed at the half way point of the directional pedal, and the OP did not realize this, and was running at full pedal when reaching a slope, then decreasing pedal down to the half point would not take the swashplate from the full speed position, and the tractor would lug down, the same as if the pedal was held in the full speed position on a normally operating tractor.

And if there was drift in the hydraulic servo-mechanism output, when running at a constant directional pedal position on a flat, or constant slope grade, the drift should show up as speed variations, since the load on the engine should be constant. (Well, I guess load on the engine may vary, along with speed change, if the swash plate drifts)

Just a couple thoughts in response to an interesting comment...

 

[rbargeron]

I've been hesitant to suggest a way to test it - it needs extreme care to be done safely. This is also the next generation of HST after the one in my L48 - so it would be best to look at a WSM before trying determine causal factors.

One way that might show something is to select 2wd, block the front wheels, raise and support the rear wheels, and operate the foot pedal by hand with engine idling. Moving it a bit away from neutral, see if the wheel speed is steady or if it keeps gaining. If the regulator is working right the speed should become constant wherever the pedal is held. If it seems to go faster than expected or keeps gaining speed, that lines up with the problem this L3130 seems to have. Dick B.

 

[Henro]

I've been hesitant to suggest a way to test it - it needs extreme care to be done safely. This is also the next generation of HST after the one in my L48 - so it would be best to look at a WSM before trying to do any testing.

One way that might show something is to select 2wd, block the front wheels, raise and support the rear wheels, and operate the foot pedal by hand with engine idling. Moving it a bit away from neutral, see if the wheel speed is steady or if it keeps gaining. If the regulator is working right the speed should become constant wherever the pedal is held. If it seems to go faster than expected or keeps gaining speed, that's the problem. Dick B.

Just wondering, how is that different from just running the tractor on a flat surface and seeing what happens?

No real opinion here. Just seems like what I would do if it were my tractor...