Back to HST problum

Henro

Well-known member

Equipment
B2910, BX2200, KX41-2V mini Ex., Beer fridge
May 24, 2019
5,803
2,994
113
North of Pittsburgh PA
How many filters used for the hydraulic oil?

If two, any chance you reversed them when you replaced them?

Just a thought. Not sure if reversal would make any difference or not. I am sure it’s not
recommended though. :LOL:

Edit: Also I don’t recall if you mentioned if you are using OEM filters or not.
 

torch

Well-known member

Equipment
B7100HSD, B2789, B2550, B4672, 48" cultivator, homemade FEL and Cab
Jun 10, 2016
2,621
871
113
Muskoka, Ont.
The OP may not have as polished a writing style as some here, but he gets the idea across and seems to have some mechanical aptitude. But to recap what has been established so far:

The tractor is an L3130 HST he got with 980 hours on the clock. The original owner passed away, so there is no history available. It is unclear if the perceived problem occurred before or after it came into the OP's possession, but in another thread, he states the problem was getting worse prior to an extensive service performed at 1018 hours by the OP.

Problem is described as a loss of power accompanied by black smoke traveling up the slightest hill in Medium gear range in another thread. States it happens in all gear ranges in this thread. 4wd or 2wd. No clutch slippage, the engine bogs down (presumably meaning loss of rpm).

It will spin the tires when placed against a tree in 4wd, low range, gentle pressure on the HST pedal. OP was attempting to travel uphill with the HST pedal fully depressed originally. Notes that performance is better if he backs off the pedal instead, but still seems to lack power.

Service and diagnostics:

Tractor will roll easily in neutral, so brakes do not seem to be binding.

OP states he did a compression test in another thread: First he states 175 to 200 psi, but that he didn't have the correct adapters and used the "hold in" (presumably the rubber tip one holds against a spark plug hole). He later states 450 psi (possibly after he got the proper adapter, but not stated, so maybe a second attempt with a rubber adapter?). He also notes there is no detectable blow-by from the crankcase ventilation hose.

OP states in another thread that he tried cracking each injector line in series, with equal rpm drop noted for each cylinder.

OP states he cleaned out the fuel system and tried a gravity feed bottle with no change. He replaced the fuel supply pump anyway. Repeatedly because the first replacement leaked. He also added an inline electric fuel pump because he had trouble priming the system with the stock pump.

OP replaced all injectors and the governor spring. States he conducted a pressure test of the fuel system but I don't see the results listed in any of his threads.

OP notes the hydraulic fluid temperature was measured to be 164° using a "heat gun" (presumably a non-contact infra-red thermometer). Did not state if that was °F or °C. I'm guessing °F since he is in the US. He notes that the problem is less as the machine warms up.

He did a complete fluid and filter change at 1018 hours without apparent effect. He did not state which filters were serviced -- just the spin on or if suction screens also cleaned. He did not state the brand and type of fluid used. Edit: I see he posted while I was typing. The fluid was Tractor Supply brand labelled as meeting Kubota UDT.

While a PTO dyno has not been used, he did a seat-of-the-pants test in another thread by connecting a large (24' mower) to the PTO and accelerated it from 1800rpm to 2800rpm without significant issue.

He jacked all 4 wheels off the ground and ran the tractor through all ranges without any apparent binding.

I think that's everything so far.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users

D2Cat

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
L305DT, B7100HST, TG1860, TG1860D, L4240
Mar 27, 2014
13,884
5,687
113
40 miles south of Kansas City
The big thing that pokes out to me is the fluid used, Tractor Supply. Not recommended or good for an HST no matter what the label on the bucket reads.
 
  • Like
  • Wow
Reactions: 2 users

ferguson

Active member

Equipment
L3130
Jan 19, 2022
296
115
43
w.v.
The big thing that pokes out to me is the fluid used, Tractor Supply. Not recommended or good for an HST no matter what the label on the bucket reads.
This is a picture of hill / in high gear flat approach 2800 rpm by the time i get to the top of hill 1100 rpm have video & audio just trying to figure out youtube to link it
 

Attachments

  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Vigo

Well-known member

Equipment
B6100, B8200
Jan 9, 2022
595
340
63
San Antonio Texas
ASE Master (auto) Tech here, newish to tractors but it's kind of all the same.

The PTO is driven by a shaft that goes through the HST but doesn't interact with the HST's function, i.e. you could start hitting the HST with a sledgehammer and the pto would be unaffected until you smashed all the way down to where the PTO shaft goes through the middle of it. The 24' mower test suggests (unscientifically) that the engine is somewhat ok. I know someone said a mower not cutting anything isn't a test, but i don't think i could get a 24' mower spinning without smoking my clutch on my little tractors. I think it would take 20+hp to spin that mower at 540rpm not even cutting anything.

The HST is able to transfer enough torque to spin 4 tires pushing against a tree in low range. As already said, the HST moves the same amount of fluid regardless of whether you are in low, medium, or high range so the HST is able to move fluid, at least at a low enough pressure. Pressure will only rise enough to meet the load. It's possible that going up any kind of hill in high range requires more pressure than spinning all 4 tires in low.

If that's the case, we're talking about a problem that either starts, or finally becomes noticeable, at higher pressures inside the HST. The only pressure leaving the HST is essentially to push fluid through a remote mounted filter, if it has a remote mounted filter instead of one directly screwed onto the HST. Even if there was a restriction in the filter, it should have internal bypass valve which would open and allow flow to continue. If it didn't, or if something after the filter became restricted, it still shouldn't cause this because the HST can 100% definitely make enough pressure to simply blow out the filter o-ring or split the filter case if that path was THAT restricted, since spin-on filters can only take ~100-150psi before popping, from what i understand. So, we are talking about something that happens at high pressure INSIDE the HST.

The HST has a charge pump, a variable displacement pump, and a fixed displacement motor. If there were any problem getting fluid INTO those components, they would do something closer to freewheeling which would NOT bog the engine. If anything it would make a whining noise while the engine revs stayed mostly the same. But if there is a problem getting fluid OUT of any one of those components they become harder to spin and bog down the engine. All leaks leak more when there is a larger pressure differential so we probably have an internal leak making it harder to get fluid OUT of a component, which is not causing a noticeable symptom at low pressures because the flow rate of the leak is lower as well.

My only theory right now has to do with case drains. If you have a piston pump/motor, everything under/behind the piston rings is the 'crankcase' where any leakage past the rings goes. The pumps will have some kind of case drain releasing that leakage back into the sump to prevent the crankcase from filling up with fluid. My theory right now is that one of these pumps has a case drain which is just some kind of smallish hole. If this pump has a leaky cylinder, at low pressure the case drain hole can keep up with the leak, and the area underneath the pistons does not fill up with fluid. But, at high pressure, the leak is larger than the case drain in terms of flow, and the area underneath the pistons in the pump fills up with fluid, making it extremely difficult to turn that pump.

So i think we're looking at a leaky cylinder in one of the pumps or motor that is outflowing the case drain at high pressure, causing that pump/motor to almost 'lock up'. If that's the case, the only solution will be to take the HST out and apart for repair or possible replacement.

I hope i'm wrong..$$$:confused:
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

Vigo

Well-known member

Equipment
B6100, B8200
Jan 9, 2022
595
340
63
San Antonio Texas
Here's a hydraulic circuit diagram of an HST if anyone is interested.
img_winter_agri_03.jpg



Here are some pictures of a Kubota HST that i labeled for another thread.
s-l1600.jpg

s-l1600 (2).jpg

Although between then and now I have realized the part about those ports allowing fluid from trans sump into HST is wrong, so ignore that..:rolleyes:
s-l1600 (3).jpg


Here is the thread those came from on TBN where i talked a lot more about HSTs:
HST discussion
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

Dieseldonato

Well-known member

Equipment
B7510 hydro, yanmar ym146, cub cadet 1450, 582,782
Mar 15, 2022
728
439
63
Pa
Here's a hydraulic circuit diagram of an HST if anyone is interested.
View attachment 83120


Here are some pictures of a Kubota HST that i labeled for another thread.
View attachment 83121
View attachment 83122
Although between then and now I have realized the part about those ports allowing fluid from trans sump into HST is wrong, so ignore that..:rolleyes:
View attachment 83123

Here is the thread those came from on TBN where i talked a lot more about HSTs:
HST discussion
This is why I suggested in my previous post the hst needs tested. There is a procedure but I don't know it with this model of tractor. I do like the case drain being overwhelmed idea. At any rate it's time for a functional test of the hst and possibly a tear down. Oh there's a suction screen and a bypass filter for the hydro, so no it won't/shouldn't blow the filter out being a bypass style of filter.
 

Henro

Well-known member

Equipment
B2910, BX2200, KX41-2V mini Ex., Beer fridge
May 24, 2019
5,803
2,994
113
North of Pittsburgh PA
Here's a hydraulic circuit diagram of an HST if anyone is interested.
View attachment 83120


Here are some pictures of a Kubota HST that i labeled for another thread.
View attachment 83121
View attachment 83122
Although between then and now I have realized the part about those ports allowing fluid from trans sump into HST is wrong, so ignore that..:rolleyes:
View attachment 83123

Here is the thread those came from on TBN where i talked a lot more about HSTs:
HST discussion
Just a fun question, as I don’t have a clue. BUT what would happen if the suction filter and line filter were reversed?

The OP is obviously a competent mechanic. Not arguing that. But if the filters were reversed, would we expect the tractor to operate normally?

Apologies to the OP but I am extremely curious…
 

Grassandstuff

New member

Equipment
Kubota MX5100 Woods 9180rd2 bat wing finish mower
May 27, 2022
15
8
3
hahahaha#1
I have the MX 5100, it's 42.5 hp to pto. It's everything it can handle with my 15 ft bat wing, even without the pto on I have to feather the pedal some in mid range to get up the inclines to the front of the greens, sometimes lo range for the sides of greens. I think the Woods bat wing is about 4000 pounds. If you run a 3130 at 24 hp pto to a 24 foot mower, I need to downsize tractors. It was handling it ok for about a year and then started gradually getting slower up the inclines. New fuel filter popped her back to life immediately. I think anything over 2000 pounds towing up a 10 degree incline with 31 hp sub compact is gonna be a very light pedal in mid and possibly lo range. What is the weight of this mower you're towing?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

Henro

Well-known member

Equipment
B2910, BX2200, KX41-2V mini Ex., Beer fridge
May 24, 2019
5,803
2,994
113
North of Pittsburgh PA
I have the MX 5100, it's 42.5 hp to pto. It's everything it can handle with my 15 ft bat wing, even without the pto on I have to feather the pedal some in mid range to get up the inclines to the front of the greens, sometimes lo range for the sides of greens. I think the Woods bat wing is about 4000 pounds. If you run a 3130 at 24 hp pto to a 24 foot mower, I need to downsize tractors. It was handling it ok for about a year and then started gradually getting slower up the inclines. New fuel filter popped her back to life immediately. I think anything over 2000 pounds towing up a 10 degree incline with 31 hp sub compact is gonna be a very light pedal in mid and possibly lo range. What is the weight of this mower you're towing?
He just hooked up the 24’ mower as a test. He doesn’t use it normally.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

torch

Well-known member

Equipment
B7100HSD, B2789, B2550, B4672, 48" cultivator, homemade FEL and Cab
Jun 10, 2016
2,621
871
113
Muskoka, Ont.
The HST is essentially a closed loop. It does leak a bit (deliberately -- the leaks lubricate the moving components within the case) so the charge pump is there to keep things topped up, as it where. But otherwise, the high-pressure variable displacement pump and the hydraulic motor form a loop.

The spin-on filter is between the charge pump and the charge pump relief valve. It doesn't see high pressure, just charge pressure. It cannot restrict the flow to or from the high pressure VD pump. It just ensures that the make-up fluid reaching the HST loop is filtered.

The seepage past the pistons fills the case with lubricant, but the case relief valve ensures minimal pressure build-up. If the case relief valve failed to open, I believe the shaft seals would blow out long before pressure could rise high enough to bog the engine down.

That said, it might be worthwhile hooking a pressure gauge up to the various test points and confirm the pressures are as indicated in the factory service manual.

In the absence of a real PTO dyno test to confirm engine output, I am wondering if there could be physical damage to one or both of the swash plates. Galling there could explain why the HST operates unloaded, but absorbs excessive engine power under load. The OP installed UDT compatible fluid, but that doesn't mean the deceased previous owner did.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users

whitetiger

Moderator
Staff member

Equipment
Kubota tech..BX2370, RCK60, B7100HST, RTV900 w plow, Ford 1100 FWA
Nov 20, 2011
2,942
1,399
113
Kansas City, KS
So i think we're looking at a leaky cylinder in one of the pumps or motor that is outflowing the case drain at high pressure, causing that pump/motor to almost 'lock up'. If that's the case, the only solution will be to take the HST out and apart for repair or possible replacement.

I hope i'm wrong..$$$:confused:
The HST on this unit is inside the transmission case submerged in hydraulic oil. Any leakage from the rotating groups is into the case. There is no case drain line or small hole to restrict it.
 

whitetiger

Moderator
Staff member

Equipment
Kubota tech..BX2370, RCK60, B7100HST, RTV900 w plow, Ford 1100 FWA
Nov 20, 2011
2,942
1,399
113
Kansas City, KS
Used tracotr supply UDT fluid on lable meets Kubota Asked 4 other kubota owners in aria about this fluid all use it /
The tractor supply UDT does not meet Kubota UDT specs and is not a good choice for an HST tractor.
Ask them to prove it. They can not.
 

ferguson

Active member

Equipment
L3130
Jan 19, 2022
296
115
43
w.v.
The tractor supply UDT does not meet Kubota UDT specs and is not a good choice for an HST tractor.
Ask them to prove it. They can not.
Going to get Quart of Kubota oil just to see if there is a viscosity difference
 

torch

Well-known member

Equipment
B7100HSD, B2789, B2550, B4672, 48" cultivator, homemade FEL and Cab
Jun 10, 2016
2,621
871
113
Muskoka, Ont.
Viscosity is only one small measure. Additives, stability, acidity -- there's a whole range of characteristics and possible differences. You'd need a lab to properly compare the two.

Looking on-line at the TS website, it does not actually state that their premium fluid meets Kubota UDT specifications. It says "recommended for use in". Recommended by whom? Not Kubota, we know that. If it truly meets Kubota's UDT spec, why don't they say that on the label and list the testing laboratory or results somewhere?

It states that it is "J20C" formulation, which is a John Deere standard for summer weight fluid. But even then, there is no claim or evidence that it has actually been tested and shown to meet the spec. For all we really know, it may be the same stuff that was previously marketed as meeting the JD 303 spec. Many of the cheap 303 oils were marketed as being suitable for use in all tractor transmissions, when in fact they were inadequate and caused damage to modern HST transmissions. Google "303 hydraulic fluid" to find a host of horror stories and lawsuits. I alluded to this earlier when I mentioned that we have no way of knowing what fluid the previous owner was using and was in the tractor when the problem was first noticed by you.

I'm not saying TS premium tractor transmission oil is bad. It may or may not be bad for your Kubota or even a John Deere. But Whitetiger is a Kubota mechanic who has a lot more familiarity with the subject than I and in the absence of any evidence from the manufacturer to the contrary, I'd put a heavy weight on his advice.

But that's just my 2¢.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users

D2Cat

Well-known member
Lifetime Member

Equipment
L305DT, B7100HST, TG1860, TG1860D, L4240
Mar 27, 2014
13,884
5,687
113
40 miles south of Kansas City
Going to get Quart of Kubota oil just to see if there is a viscosity difference
Partner, that's somewhat like the Dr. telling the patient to not consume protein and the patient want's to compare two different brands of peanut butter to see which one is best!
 
  • Haha
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

Grassandstuff

New member

Equipment
Kubota MX5100 Woods 9180rd2 bat wing finish mower
May 27, 2022
15
8
3
hahahaha#1
Partner, that's somewhat like the Dr. telling the patient to not consume protein and the patient want's to compare two different brands of peanut butter to see which one is best!
If I had a high hour gear tractor just running farm stuff small jobs, I'd be ok with non Kubota equivalent. But a nice low hours hydro that I'm gonna run all day in 100 deg heat, saving 30 bucks a year won't even cross my mind. Kubota has to make it past warranty time so they know what additives and formulas is gonna get them there. Now in a Ford 5000 raking hay in November, the Tractor supply formula will do just fine and to the most guys pass muster. After years of changing hundreds of hydraulic pumps in crown forklifts, I see what bad oil does to extremely tight tolerances of things like priority flow dividers and orifices and the rest of the innards. I really don't think you have a hydraulic problem, if it's turning tires in lo against a tree, and bogs motor in others, you either have an overload issue, fuel supply issue or injection pump issue, just my guess. A Dyno test on PTO would be worth a trip to get a true North of what engine can do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

ferguson

Active member

Equipment
L3130
Jan 19, 2022
296
115
43
w.v.
Partner, that's somewhat like the Dr. telling the patient to not consume protein and the patient want's to compare two different brands of peanut butter to see which one is best!
I do not know what fluid was in it when i got it the filters wrer marked in marker 4/19 i got the tractor 980 hrs has 1020 now did the fluid chance at 1000 hr (problum started befor fluid change) i understand at this point just going to by a quart to see if there is noticeable difference in viscosity /making arrangements for transport to have psi & hp test / wating also on 1 of 3 dealers for drop off date
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

ferguson

Active member

Equipment
L3130
Jan 19, 2022
296
115
43
w.v.
If I had a high hour gear tractor just running farm stuff small jobs, I'd be ok with non Kubota equivalent. But a nice low hours hydro that I'm gonna run all day in 100 deg heat, saving 30 bucks a year won't even cross my mind. Kubota has to make it past warranty time so they know what additives and formulas is gonna get them there. Now in a Ford 5000 raking hay in November, the Tractor supply formula will do just fine and to the most guys pass muster. After years of changing hundreds of hydraulic pumps in crown forklifts, I see what bad oil does to extremely tight tolerances of things like priority flow dividers and orifices and the rest of the innards. I really don't think you have a hydraulic problem, if it's turning tires in lo against a tree, and bogs motor in others, you either have an overload issue, fuel supply issue or injection pump issue, just my guess. A Dyno test on PTO would be worth a trip to get a true North of what engine can do.
What do you mean by overload issue