In search of a better truck for towing the M6060 and folding cutter.

[Siesta Sundance]

It's also a bit harder for me to add rental equipment to my policy if I end going with American National.
Under FB, I would submit my rental agreement, cost replacement of the machine. Example; monthly rental $5k for a $150k Cat 100hp mulching skidsteer, it costs me less $100 to insure it for a month with that same $250 deductible. Beats paying the overpriced $1200 to $1500 rental insurance that the rental companies force unto their customers. FB will usually issue me an insurance binder for that equipment within 2 business days.

 

[hedgerow]

I contacted a number of trucking companies and the going rate is around $2/mile to haul a truck such as an F-550. The 2020 F-550 deal fell through since it was sold last weekend as I was discussing logistics. I'm still looking at my options, but am moving towards an F-350, F-450 or F-550 dually with a flatbed or standard bed and keeping the dump trailer.

I decided to pass on both the F-650 and F-750 dump trucks for now, but if they're still available in the spring I'll revisit them as options.

I think you headed in the right direction. I would be looking for a late model F-350 dually four door long box diesel. I think your a ford guy but do give the Dodge ton dually a look. Have several friends that are big Ford guys and have went to the Dodge for the Cummins. Before you go down this rabbit hole to far have a talk with your insurance guy and make sure your current insurance is going to work for hauling your tractor and mower around to do pay for jobs and your tractor insurance will cover any damage that might happen while mowing on some one else's property. For many years I run commercial trucks for hire and farm trucks. Two completely different insurance policy's and they were ran under different company names. For a time I did some custom farming and had to have a insurance policy for that as my farm policy didn't cover work for hire. Know days I don't do any custom work. Not worth it to me. Good luck with what ever you do.

 

[Botamon]

I would be looking for a late model F-350 dually four door long box diesel. I think your a ford guy but do give the Dodge ton dually a look. Have several friends that are big Ford guys and have went to the Dodge for the Cummins.

For the most part, I agree...but right now it appears that many of the 2019 and up Ram Cummins engines are failing big time because of the hydraulic lifters they started using. Lots of talk on the on-line forums about this. Here's one:

https://www.cumminsforum.com/threads/lifter-failure-report-it-here.2589362/

For the record - I have two Dodge/Cummins trucks - but both have the 5.9.

 

[McMXi]

I think you headed in the right direction. I would be looking for a late model F-350 dually four door long box diesel. I think your a ford guy but do give the Dodge ton dually a look. Have several friends that are big Ford guys and have went to the Dodge for the Cummins. Before you go down this rabbit hole to far have a talk with your insurance guy and make sure your current insurance is going to work for hauling your tractor and mower around to do pay for jobs and your tractor insurance will cover any damage that might happen while mowing on some one else's property. For many years I run commercial trucks for hire and farm trucks. Two completely different insurance policy's and they were ran under different company names. For a time I did some custom farming and had to have a insurance policy for that as my farm policy didn't cover work for hire. Know days I don't do any custom work. Not worth it to me. Good luck with what ever you do.

Thanks! I'm definitely a Ford guy, although I have no issues with the older Cummins engines, it's just the rest of the truck that surrounds the engine that gives me cause for concern. A 2020 or newer F-350 or F-450 dually is most likely the smartest move, with the plan to keep the 16ft dump trailer, sell the 22ft tilt trailer and buy a 25+5ft gooseneck. That's the way the wind is currently blowing.

I'm looking almost daily at Carfax, Truck Trader and Craigslist, but realistically I am more likely to buy something when the weather is better so that I can fly and drive rather than pay someone to haul it across country. I'll report back if anything changes, and thanks again to all of the feedback. It's very helpful.

 

[jyoutz]

Thanks! I'm definitely a Ford guy, although I have no issues with the older Cummins engines, it's just the rest of the truck that surrounds the engine that gives me cause for concern. A 2020 or newer F-350 or F-450 dually is most likely the smartest move, with the plan to keep the 16ft dump trailer, sell the 22ft tilt trailer and buy a 25+5ft gooseneck. That's the way the wind is currently blowing.

I'm looking almost daily at Carfax, Truck Trader and Craigslist, but realistically I am more likely to buy something when the weather is better so that I can fly and drive rather than pay someone to haul it across country. I'll report back if anything changes, and thanks again to all of the feedback. It's very helpful.

The problem with the F-350/450 is they have the powerstroke engines, not the Cummins. Old or new, the Cummins is a far better engine for longevity and lower maintenance costs. And I have no idea why anyone would be concerned about the Dodge/Ram trucks? They are proven performers.

 

[lugbolt]

The problem with the F-350/450 is they have the powerstroke engines, not the Cummins. Old or new, the Cummins is a far better engine for longevity and lower maintenance costs. And I have no idea why anyone would be concerned about the Dodge/Ram trucks? They are proven performers.

problem with Ram is that they have a decent (not great) engine, and the rest of the truck falls apart around the engine. We've had several over the years, they all do the same thing. 5.9 was the last of the good cummins diesels available in a pickup truck.

far as ford? Great truck. Keep it maintained and it'll last as long as the cummins engine will, if not longer. People don't maintain things though, and that is where cummins shines--you can get away with neglecting them more, at least until the truck falls apart. Powerstroke is smoother running for sure, and will usually accelerate a little faster than the cummins will. A little quieter too. And the truck is a lot nicer; although I will say the Ram has come a long way since 2001 which was the last time I OWNED one (I have borrowed, rented, used, and our company trucks were rams for a while too). And the ford rides a LOT better, and I don't mean just a little bit, I mean it's a daylight and dark difference better. We still have a Ram at work, one of the last ones, and we have a 2020 Ford. The ford is faster unloaded (can't say it's faster loaded because the loads we pull differ retularly), it rides a million times better, gets a little bit better fuel mileage (contrary to what everyone says it should be), runs quieter, is a lot more comfortable. The guys who drive regularly always jump in the ford these days and that old ram just sits most of the time now.

Granted these are all 3/4 ton not 350/3500/4500/450/etc

Now gas vs diesel debate for those that care. Boss and I have been watching this pretty closely over the last 2 years. We're averaging 22,000 miles a year on each of the 4 trucks (17 duramax 2500, 19 ram 2500 22 ram 2500 6.4 gas, and 2020 6.7 f250). The duramax is showing overall cost (insurance taxes repairs maintenance purchase price and fuel costs) of $1.38/mi. The Powerstroke is about $1.56 but remember-in 2020 the trucks cost a lot more than they did in 16. Ram diesel is $1.41/mi. Ram gas is $1.22 a mile. Compare the ram diesel vs the ram gas, times 22,000 miles and the difference comes out to $4100 and change over a year. It is no longer feasible to own diesel pickup, not for most of us. If you put a couple hundred thousand miles a year on them, the fuel costs might even things out but for us, it doesn't, and we are replacing the diesels with gas burners. The F250 will be replaced with a new 7.3 when the time comes. Here's the kicker. The duramax has some issues (which is one reason it needs to be replaced), rear end leaking, transmission issues, wiring issues, turbo starting to show sign of failure, one injector, glow plugs, ball joints, upper oil pan leak, etc--the dealer's quoted cost to do all this (and some of it is not listed here) is around $31,000. Old job we had a 2007 3500 GMC duramax DRW; spent $21,600 in repairs on that one. Just a battery cable was a $1100 fix (harness I guess). If you are a personal user, and not a business, you get to just eat those costs. Keep that in mind.

Now you know why the ram diesel and the F250 are going to be replaced; actually may not even replace them just get rid of them. The duramax we haven't decided yet. It's worthless as it is, maybe for parts or something but I figure it ain't worth much more than maybe $2500. May end up fixing a few things and dumping it for what we can get out of it. 146,000 miles. Ram gas has 45000 on it, F250 has 99,000, and ram diesel is 107,000 on Monday this past week when I checked them. They were all purchased new.

myself I have a 2003 F250, 7.3L diesel. I won't own another diesel. Don't make no sense for personal use, unless you have, like Napoleon syndrome or you just like to spend money. If I had known when I bought it in 2012, that it was gonna cost this much to keep going, I'd have passed on it.

 

[jyoutz]

problem with Ram is that they have a decent (not great) engine, and the rest of the truck falls apart around the engine. We've had several over the years, they all do the same thing. 5.9 was the last of the good cummins diesels available in a pickup truck.

far as ford? Great truck. Keep it maintained and it'll last as long as the cummins engine will, if not longer. People don't maintain things though, and that is where cummins shines--you can get away with neglecting them more, at least until the truck falls apart. Powerstroke is smoother running for sure, and will usually accelerate a little faster than the cummins will. A little quieter too. And the truck is a lot nicer; although I will say the Ram has come a long way since 2001 which was the last time I OWNED one (I have borrowed, rented, used, and our company trucks were rams for a while too). And the ford rides a LOT better, and I don't mean just a little bit, I mean it's a daylight and dark difference better. We still have a Ram at work, one of the last ones, and we have a 2020 Ford. The ford is faster unloaded (can't say it's faster loaded because the loads we pull differ retularly), it rides a million times better, gets a little bit better fuel mileage (contrary to what everyone says it should be), runs quieter, is a lot more comfortable. The guys who drive regularly always jump in the ford these days and that old ram just sits most of the time now.

Granted these are all 3/4 ton not 350/3500/4500/450/etc

Now gas vs diesel debate for those that care. Boss and I have been watching this pretty closely over the last 2 years. We're averaging 22,000 miles a year on each of the 4 trucks (17 duramax 2500, 19 ram 2500 22 ram 2500 6.4 gas, and 2020 6.7 f250). The duramax is showing overall cost (insurance taxes repairs maintenance purchase price and fuel costs) of $1.38/mi. The Powerstroke is about $1.56 but remember-in 2020 the trucks cost a lot more than they did in 16. Ram diesel is $1.41/mi. Ram gas is $1.22 a mile. Compare the ram diesel vs the ram gas, times 22,000 miles and the difference comes out to $4100 and change over a year. It is no longer feasible to own diesel pickup, not for most of us. If you put a couple hundred thousand miles a year on them, the fuel costs might even things out but for us, it doesn't, and we are replacing the diesels with gas burners. The F250 will be replaced with a new 7.3 when the time comes. Here's the kicker. The duramax has some issues (which is one reason it needs to be replaced), rear end leaking, transmission issues, wiring issues, turbo starting to show sign of failure, one injector, glow plugs, ball joints, upper oil pan leak, etc--the dealer's quoted cost to do all this (and some of it is not listed here) is around $31,000. Old job we had a 2007 3500 GMC duramax DRW; spent $21,600 in repairs on that one. Just a battery cable was a $1100 fix (harness I guess). If you are a personal user, and not a business, you get to just eat those costs. Keep that in mind.

Now you know why the ram diesel and the F250 are going to be replaced; actually may not even replace them just get rid of them. The duramax we haven't decided yet. It's worthless as it is, maybe for parts or something but I figure it ain't worth much more than maybe $2500. May end up fixing a few things and dumping it for what we can get out of it. 146,000 miles. Ram gas has 45000 on it, F250 has 99,000, and ram diesel is 107,000 on Monday this past week when I checked them. They were all purchased new.

myself I have a 2003 F250, 7.3L diesel. I won't own another diesel. Don't make no sense for personal use, unless you have, like Napoleon syndrome or you just like to spend money. If I had known when I bought it in 2012, that it was gonna cost this much to keep going, I'd have passed on it.

I think your experience with Dodge/Ram truck longevity is pretty dated and not at all relevant to trucks built since about 2005. And you have the only good powerstroke (7.3). Every powerstroke since the 7.3 is less reliable and extremely expensive to maintain. The Cummins are an industrial engine, not the strokes and are extremely reliable and economical to maintain. The strokes require that the truck fenders be lifted to do many maintenance tasks and simple maintenance is often a $1000+. And you are overlooking a major cost factor for diesel trucks: resale value. A diesel truck with 300k miles still gas reasonable value, while the gasser truck is bound for the junkyard with that many miles. I respectfully disagree with your assessment of both Dodge/Ram trucks and the Cummins engines. Yes the super duty Fords do ride a little nicer and the powerstrokes are fast. They are also plagued with reliability and high maintenance costs.

 

[JasonW]

I think your experience with Dodge/Ram truck longevity is pretty dated and not at all relevant to trucks built since about 2005. And you have the only good powerstroke (7.3). Every powerstroke since the 7.3 is less reliable and extremely expensive to maintain. The Cummins are an industrial engine, not the strokes and are extremely reliable and economical to maintain. The strokes require that the truck fenders be lifted to do many maintenance tasks and simple maintenance is often a $1000+. And you are overlooking a major cost factor for diesel trucks: resale value. A diesel truck with 300k miles still gas reasonable value, while the gasser truck is bound for the junkyard with that many miles. I respectfully disagree with your assessment of both Dodge/Ram trucks and the Cummins engines. Yes the super duty Fords do ride a little nicer and the powerstrokes are fast. They are also plagued with reliability and high maintenance costs.

What’s higher maintenance items specifically are on the 6.7 fords? What maintenance is $1000 plus?


Pulling the cab may sound out of place but they are designed for that for major work. You can lift a cab in less than an hour. Again that’s only for major work.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I guess I'm the odd duck of the bunch, I love my GMC and duramax and allison.

 

[jyoutz]

What’s higher maintenance items specifically are on the 6.7 fords? What maintenance is $1000 plus?


Pulling the cab may sound out of place but they are designed for that for major work. You can lift a cab in less than an hour. Again that’s only for major work.

Take it to the dealer for routine service. It’s a $1000 bill. My Cummins can be serviced for $200.

 

[McMXi]

Look, if someone wants to buy me a truck capable of pulling a trailer, tractor and 12ft folding cutter coming in at close to 20,000 lb I'll happily take it regardless of who makes it, and promise not to complain about a thing.

When I towed the M6060 back from Sheridan, WY I had a GCW of 19,090 lb which is around 5% under the maximum recommended GCW of 20,000 lb. The tractor as shown without liquid ballast or wheel weights was around 7,360 lb. The MidSota trailer weighed 3,360 lb which resulted in a trailer GCW of 10,720 lb. The weight of the truck on its own with me, two dogs, a SnugTop topper, a Decked draw system and a full tank of fuel was 8,370 lb which is below the GCW of 8,800lb. However, once the trailer was connected it added around 1,200lb to the weight of the truck.

The '02 F-250 is rated to tow a conventional trailer with a GCW of 12,000 lb. I pulled the trialer about 650 miles over four mountain passes including the 7% grade out of Missoula, and not to mention the 120 mile climb from Sheridan to Billings, MT. The truck did well but not great, but everything was just about maxed out, and that's with a chip and programmer. I was able to keep up with traffic, but on that 7% grade out of Missoula I was in 3rd gear, accelerator to the floor and doing 55mph which is all that the truck had. The EGT readings pre and post turbo were ok, but in that moment I wish I had more truck or a better rear end or something. This was a good test for the truck and overall it performed well.

So, now to last summer. The M6060 with the loader, wheel weights and liquid ballast weighs around 9,790 lb. With the loader off and front weights on it weighs around 9,063 lb. The folding cutter is listed at 3,730 lb in the spec sheet provided by Land Pride, but the dealer in the quote listed the approximate weight as 4,194 lb. So assuming a cutter weight of 4,000 lb, a tractor weight of 9,063 lb that's a load of 13,063 lb. A 30ft gooseneck trailer comes in around 6,930 lb so I need a truck capabale of pulling just about 20,000 lb. This falls comfortably within the rating of the 6.7L Ford trucks but certainly way outside the 12,800 lb gooseneck rating for my F-250. I would much rather have more truck than I need than less truck than I need. Rarely is running anything at the upper limit of the performance range a good experience, and running beyond that can be miserable. That folding cutter shows up as being "Kubota Matched" to the MX6000 and M6060, but I sure know which tractor I pull it with and which tractor would struggle with it.

 

[JasonW]

Take it to the dealer for routine service. It’s a $1000 bill. My Cummins can be serviced for $200.

That’s why I asked specifically, and you gave an apples to oranges comparison.

Both have roughly the same oil capacity and fuel filters to be changed, cost would be a wash in cost. The Cummins being cheaper to maintain has just been regurgitated for decades.

 

[Botamon]

myself I have a 2003 F250, 7.3L diesel. I won't own another diesel. Don't make no sense for personal use, unless you have, like Napoleon syndrome or you just like to spend money. If I had known when I bought it in 2012, that it was gonna cost this much to keep going, I'd have passed on it.

Whether it makes sense for "personal use" depends on what you'll be towing. For those of us, like the OP, who tow heavy, a gas engine makes no sense. The 7.3 gas engine is a great engine from everything I read about it...but it doesn't even come close to the diesel when you are talking 20,000 lbs and up. The new 6.7 Powerstroke is rated at 1200 lb-ft of torque @ 1600 rpm. The 7.3 gas engine is rated at 475 lb-ft of torque, only a third of the Powerstroke's capabilities, and that's at 4000 rpm. Who wants to drive their engine at 4000 rpm? Max tow rating for the Powerstroke is 37,000 lb, the 7.3 gas is rated for about half that - 21,200 lb. There is no comparison between the capabilities of the two, especially when you consider that the diesel has a great exhaust brake to slow all that weight down.

And I don't understand your statement having to spend money because you own the diesel. Why is it costing you so much more to own than a gas-powered truck? My Dodge/Cummins is now 21 years old and all I've had to do to the truck in all those years is change the water pump. That was a 15 minute job and cost less than $80. The best kicker is that I could sell my Dodge/Cummins now for pretty close to what I paid for it 21 years ago. A 21 year old gas truck sells for less than $5000 around here.

This is an older chart:

 

[McMXi]

I was looking at the dizzying array of specs for the 2020 F-350, F-450 and F-550 Super Duty 6.7L trucks and I'm talking about the non chassis/cab varieties which appear to be focused more towards hauling than towing. As far as I can tell, all chassis/cab models have the engine derated compared to the standard models with beds.

I was already in the DRW camp having owned a 2002 F-350 7.3L dually, but perusing the specs has only confirmed this. Honestly, an F-350 DRW or F-450 DRW is most likely the way to go, and probably a Crew Cab 4WD model at that. For all those who've been saying this from the beginning ... my apologies for not coming around sooner. The F-350 has a GCWR of 40,000 lb and the F-450 43,500 lb with the same GVWR of 14,000 lb. The F-450 offers a little more for conventional and gooseneck towing but not enough to make the difference a deal breaker.

So that's my plan. Try to find a low mileage 2020 or later F-350 or F-450 DRW Crew Cab 6.7L long bed. Here are the 2020 specs.

https://www.ford.com/cmslibs/content/dam/brand_ford/en_us/brand/resources/general/pdf/guides/20Towing_Ford_SuperDutyPU_r1_Nov7.pdf

 

[McMXi]

myself I have a 2003 F250, 7.3L diesel. I won't own another diesel. Don't make no sense for personal use, unless you have, like Napoleon syndrome or you just like to spend money.

That's a pretty simplistic and elitist view of the diesel vs. gas engine choice. There's a lot more nuance here, and if you need or want to tow heavy trailer loads around there's little doubt that diesel is the way to go. The difference in torque is huge in the chart that @Botamon posted, not to mention where the peak torque is in the rpm range.

I won't be parting with my '02 F-250 7.3L diesel. It's a good truck, and a great truck if used within it's intended operating parameters.

 

[Lil Foot]

Take it to the dealer

That's the problem right there.....

 

[Siesta Sundance]

I was looking at the dizzying array of specs for the 2020 F-350, F-450 and F-550 Super Duty 6.7L trucks and I'm talking about the non chassis/cab varieties which appear to be focused more towards hauling than towing. As far as I can tell, all chassis/cab models have the engine derated compared to the standard models with beds.

I was already in the DRW camp having owned a 2002 F-350 7.3L dually, but perusing the specs has only confirmed this. Honestly, an F-350 DRW or F-450 DRW is most likely the way to go, and probably a Crew Cab 4WD model at that. For all those who've been saying this from the beginning ... my apologies for not coming around sooner. The F-350 has a GCWR of 40,000 lb and the F-450 43,500 lb with the same GVWR of 14,000 lb. The F-450 offers a little more for conventional and gooseneck towing but not enough to make the difference a deal breaker.

So that's my plan. Try to find a low mileage 2020 or later F-350 or F-450 DRW Crew Cab 6.7L long bed. Here are the 2020 specs.

https://www.ford.com/cmslibs/content/dam/brand_ford/en_us/brand/resources/general/pdf/guides/20Towing_Ford_SuperDutyPU_r1_Nov7.pdf

My cousin used to work for a fleet Ford sales. Many years back I had him put the F350 & F450 cab/chassis trucks side by side, the F450 deff had beefier rear suspension and iirc the 450 was bagged.
I ended buying F350 Lariat 6.n0, lol
I sold it after 2 or 3 warranty repairs for the turbos...

I have been happy with my Coal Rollin 03 Cummings.

 

[Lil Foot]

My '03 F350SRW 6.0 has been very reliable and cheap to run, EXCEPT when dealers got their moronic, untrained paws on it. 225K so far. (miles, not dollars )
I have an early one, before they cheapened EGR coolers, oil coolers, and head studs.
My diesel guy only works on PowerStrokes, and he & his helper can pull the cab off a SuperDuty single cab in 20 minutes. (I've seen it done), slightly longer for crews.
But he has enough tricks that he seldom pulls the cabs anymore.
Not sure about the newer Fords, but at their prices, I'm not likely to find out.

Examples of dealership stupidity:
Back when my F350 6.0l was young, I took it to Sanderson Ford for it's 30,000 mile service. Left for Idaho the next morning, where I found that instead of draining the old oil (15 1/2 qts) out, they just added 15 1/2 qts of new oil in on top. Blew every seal, gasket, & o-ring in the engine. They took several attempts & 6 weeks for them to seal it, and their half-a$$ed work lasted about a week beyond the warranty. Just recently paid big bucks to have it all re-sealed again. (by my diesel guy, never leaked since)
I hate dealerships.

Stopped at Keesee Motor Company, the Ford dealership in Cortez, CO for an oil change, told them the above oil change saga, & they assured me that they don't do those kinds of things. A few minutes later, they put the truck on a lift, and placed one of the lift pads under my 60 gal aftermarket fuel tank, putting a 3"x5" hole in it. (I had just filled it) They then refused to replace the tank with anything but a stock 29gal tank. After much discussing, yelling, threatening, & involving the police, they finally agreed to replace my tank- but in the time they wasted arguing about it, they missed the Friday shipping deadline & we had to wait until Monday. (We were due back in Phoenix Monday for work, and they had to pay for four days of hotel & a rental car) On Monday, they had to order a new tank, (almost $2K) then have it overnighted. (almost $2K) After installing it, they then refused to put more than 5 gals of diesel in it. More arguing, but we finally won.

On the trip we just returned from, needed an oil change, so I stopped at Bill Summers Ford in North Platte, NE. (been there once before) I also had an upper shock bushing on passenger side front shock go bad, so I asked them to replace it. Oil change was slow, but no problems. Then they came back with an work order for me to sign to replace all (4) shocks. ($2200!)
No, I explained, shocks are fine, just put in one bushing. They claimed it's all one piece, bushing pressed in, can't change it, BS, BS, BS..
After expounding on their monumental level of stupidity & dishonesty, I drove down the road to an O'Reilly's, bought a bushing & a socket, and changed it myself in about 3 minutes.
It is still there.

I could go on & on, but suffice to say I hate dealerships.

 

[jyoutz]

That's the problem right there.....

I don’t have to take my 5,9 Cummins the dealer for service, but the new powerstrokes aren’t real home servicing friendly.

 

[jyoutz]

That’s why I asked specifically, and you gave an apples to oranges comparison.

Both have roughly the same oil capacity and fuel filters to be changed, cost would be a wash in cost. The Cummins being cheaper to maintain has just been regurgitated for decades.

Any service work on a powerstroke involves removing lots of stuff and more time to do things. Whereas the I-6 Cummins is simple to work on and you don’t have to disassemble half the engine to do things like change a water pump. Go look at the industrial diesel engine applications like log skidders, motor homes, other equipment, and larger trucks. They have Cummins engines. But go for the stroker if it’s what you like.