Who Owns the Fence

[LFP57]

Is the current fence being used to limit access to his pool or does the pool have it's own fence (assuming in-ground pool)?

The fence is just around the perimeter of his yard, the pool doesn't have a separate fence.

 

[LFP57]

Sounds like he's going for a particular look to compliment his pool, I'd let him put his fence inside his yard. It won't hurt anything really to have a double fence, and it would stink if you didn't like his "new" fence with it right in your face.

Also, you don't have to worry about him putting the fence just over the line, etc.

He doesn't want to install a new fence near the existing one, he wants to completely remove the existing fence and build a new one on the same fence line.

 

[bmblank]

I think the easiest solution is to move into the woods. The best fence is 10 (or way more) acres of woods.

 

[LFP57]

To me it will just increase property value to have it in good condition so I would let them do it. However I would not pay a dime for it, as you had to fit the bill last time. Also still good to find out who actually owns the land it is on (and if there is an easement). Forget about the fence itself.

This is a residential area with homes close to each other, no easement. The current fence is in good condition, he just wants to replace the fence with something he prefers. I agree, it is important to find out who actually owns the fence and that was really the objective of writing a letter to him. Based on how he acted, it's more important now than before to identify the owner, I believe that there will be problems in the future, he'll claim because he build the fence, it is his.

 

[LFP57]

I think the easiest solution is to move into the woods. The best fence is 10 (or way more) acres of woods.

I agree and that's my plan within the next year or two.

 

[jimh406]

He doesn't want to install a new fence near the existing one, he wants to completely remove the existing fence and build a new one on the same fence line.

Yeah, I know he doesn't want to, but that's what I'd let him do.

 

[rc51stierhoff]

I agree and that's my plan within the next year or two.

Pools and fences each have their own set of liabilities for a homeowner (the neighbor may need a fence for the pool/insurance) and in some cases they can overlap….be aware of that. In some areas, if you have a pool there needs to be a fence for insurance and liability protection. With fences themselves who is responsible for the upkeep and maintenance and liability…someone gets bitten by a dog on either side of the fence, or wanders into the pool for whatever reason those are potential liabilities. Might be worth a call to your insurance company or a friend that is a lawyer to confirm what liabilities you may be at risk. If you are responsible for the fence, you may not want the responsibilities…I am not sure, might be worth a call.

That being said if you want to screw with your neighbor and keep it civil….plant some trees that will give them some free leaves etc…or take it up a notch and put in a nature observation window thru the existing fence for birdwatching (I am sure you will see the bird) or a nature observation deck after they build a new one and a telescope or binocular stand overlooking the fence / pool. Good luck.

 

[Jchonline]

This is a residential area with homes close to each other, no easement. The current fence is in good condition, he just wants to replace the fence with something he prefers. I agree, it is important to find out who actually owns the fence and that was really the objective of writing a letter to him. Based on how he acted, it's more important now than before to identify the owner, I believe that there will be problems in the future, he'll claim because he build the fence, it is his.

Just be sure. For instance one of my previous homes in a residential area had an easement on the fence line with my neighbor.

To clarify...who owns the land the fence is on is more important in my opinion. For instance if he owns the fence but it is on your property...he will need to move it at your request.

 

[LFP57]

Outside of the legal side of it there is also another more personal way for you to look at it. Did you change your mind because the cost of the new fence is too high, you have pride in the fence you repaired, or was there some spite built in there? If it is the latter, is being stuck with the bill on a fence repair from years ago really worth this much effort?

Like I mentioned earlier this is a personal question that doesn't really need an answer here but making decisions out of spite is a situation I find myself in and while sometimes the situation calls for it, I do need to catch myself every so often and realize it might not be worth the price of admission.

If it is cost there isn't much you can do about it except be honest with your neighbor and say I can't afford your Taj Mahal of a fence but I can help with a white picket.

If it is you like the fence you fixed then you're not going to remove it without a court order so he can build his a foot closer to his house.

I considered your point as well. When I had the fence ( nearly 200 feet in total) repaired and he didn't contribute to the repair one portion of the fence we agreed on, I just said forget it and moved on, wasn't worth the headache.
I changed my mind for a couple of reasons, nearly my entire fence around my yard was repaired, I used up my one freebee insurance claim to have it repaired and he now wants to remove nearly 80 ft of this fence. He has not pulled any permits nor has he called the utility companies to have underground services marked. The power line from the pole runs to a junction box in his yard, from there, one line runs diagonally under our shared fence to my house. When the fence was repaired, they cut the post at ground level, drilled new holes and shifted the fence in one direction. He's doing the work himself, he's using an auger to drill all new holes not know where prior/existing post were located or the service lines.

My point I was trying to get across to him was that now is the time to determine who owns the fence, is it on/off his or my property line and now is the perfect time to correct it. It would be very disappointing to find out that all of the money spent (by him or me) was on a fence that belonged to someone else.

 

[LFP57]

Just be sure. For instance one of my previous homes in a residential area had an easement on the fence line with my neighbor.

To clarify...who owns the land the fence is on is more important in my opinion. For instance if he owns the fence but it is on your property...he will need to move it at your request.

Good point, I think the best thing I can do is start with city hall, pull all of the permits and maybe see if I can get a copy of the land survey.

 

[jyoutz]

Good point, I think the best thing I can do is start with city hall, pull all of the permits and maybe see if I can get a copy of the land survey.

There is no reason to pay for another land survey. No doubt this was done at one time and should be on file with the county recorder’s office.

 

[LFP57]

There is no reason to pay for another land survey. No doubt this was done at one time and should be on file with the county recorder’s office.

Agreed , thanks.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

re: He's doing the work himself, he's using an auger to drill all new holes not know where prior/existing post were located or the service lines.

well he may find the LIVE underground power line with the auger !! You might get a new neighbour....

locally, we need a separate 'nonclimable' fence around pools with self closing gates (safety thing....)

Maybe just let him do what he wants providing you get all the lumber YOU (well, your insurance company ) paid for

 

[dirtydeed]

Pools and fences each have their own set of liabilities for a homeowner (the neighbor may need a fence for the pool/insurance) and in some cases they can overlap….be aware of that. In some areas, if you have a pool there needs to be a fence for insurance and liability protection.

That was what I was getting at. If OP's local code requires neighbor to install a (security) fence for the pool, I'd say it would be the neighbors' responsibility to pay for a fence....even if it was located on the property line.

years ago I was digging holes for trees to be planted on a client's property. The neighbor confronted me asking what I was doing. I told them that my clients wanted me to install more privacy trees along their border. The neighbor had a shyt fit. My clients came outside. There they were. The four of them standing nose to nose screaming at each other.

I stayed on the backhoe and just kept digging, got all the trees in the next day. I found out later that "someone" actually put a "For Sale" sign in my clients yard...No, they weren't listing their house.

15 years later, the trees are absolutely gorgeous. And the best part is that they are well over 20 feet tall now. Better than any fence and no permit needed.

 

[GSD-Keegan]

I agree and that's my plan within the next year or two.

Even living in the country, some neighbours can still cause issues over property lines and fences, more so city folks who move to a rural area. Been thru that…glad they moved back to the city.

 

[DustyRusty]

Spend the money and have the line surveyed. Then when the plan is drawn, have it show the fence in relation to the property line. Make sure to file a copy of the new survey with the town, or county, or where the deeds are kept on file. Once you file the map, usually there is a specific time frame that the abutters have to challenge the survey, and after that, it is set in stone. If the fence is exactly on the line for 100% of the distance, then it doesn't matter who owns the fence. If the fence is on your side of the line, you own the fence. If the fence is on his side, then he owns the fence, since neither of you was the land owner when the fence was originally built. Also, check your state laws concerning fences. I know in CT there are specific laws governing fences on property lines.

 

[aaluck]

I agree and that's my plan within the next year or two.

I have a slightly different take on this. See what fence he wants to put up at his expense. May look better then the existing fence.

Also, I suspect this fence is right on the property line if this is a subdivision. Most builders put them as a "separator" to sell the houses and make it a little more private, despite being on top of each other.

 

[Henro]

I’m part of the camp that says get the property line surveyed then you will know where you stand.

Otherwise your reward is frustration without knowing if that frustration is justified or not.

 

[LFP57]

I share a 6 ft wood privacy fence with a neighbor that was built before both families moved into the neighborhood. Few yrs back, a storm damaged the fence, not knowing who owned the fence, I went to the city hall and had them pull all of the building permits. There was a permit pulled for all fences except the shared fence, I went to the neighbor and provided the information and asked if he would consider sharing the cost of repairing the fence. He agreed but never to this day paid anything toward it. I ended submitting a claim with my homeowners insurance and they paid for the fence to be repaired, it was about 80 feet long, they had to replace all post and rebuild the fence sections.
The neighbor now wants to tear down this fence and replace it with a new one, at first I agreed, then on second thought, I changed my mind. Since I was 100 percent responsible to have it repaired, do I own the fence? I wrote the neighbor a letter and stated that he not tear down the shared fence until I have been provided a legal document stating who owns the fence. He clearly is not happy, so, what suggestion does anyone have that has been in this situation?

Thanks everyone, there are so many intelligent/wise people on this forum from all over the country, that have provided a lot of great information/suggests and I appreciate it!

This is is 500k house and decisions shouldn't be made lightly. My decision to reject the fence really lies with the fact that I've paid to have of the entire 3 sections of fence redone and should last many years to come. Who on this forum would go through this expense/trouble of redoing their entire fence line (originally painted to match house) and then turn around and give permission to a neighbor to allow him to just tear down a 100 ft section of fence and replace it with something that matches his house??

I have learned a number of things during the past few days, it's amazing how differently things are done from county to county and from state to state. I did go to the city hall yesterday and because of the freedom of information act, I was allowed to view all permits for any of my neighbors, just have to fill out a form, can't make copies, but you can view them.

Viewing my neighbors permit approvals, he has not applied for a single permit for any of the work he is currently doing or for the work he has done in the past, some of his projects were significant and in deed required permits. I'm not going to turn him in for this, if he's caught, he'll be fined (for each offense) and will have to pay for a permit for each as well.

In our state, county and city, any fence, be it a new construction, rebuild or replace longer than 16 feet must have a permit. I was completely wrong with an assumption I had that when applying for a permit, one would be required to provide some type of supporting documents verifying property ownership/ property lines, etc., not true. It is completely up to the person/company to insure that they're doing the work correctly and in the correct location.

At this point, I don't need to do anything, I informed him in writing that I'm rejecting the new fence project on the shared fence we have. The ball is now in his court, he can do one of a few things, he can just go ahead and tear down the fence without my approval, which seems to be what he does with everything else, which would end up being a civil case or he'd have to go through the expense/trouble of locating the exact property line and if the fence is on his property, then he's free to do what ever he chooses.

Thanks again to everyone for the great replies!

 

[GeoHorn]

And then there’s the matter of “Adverse Possession”. Each locale may deal with it in special ways…you’ll have to look into the laws in YOUR area….. If land not belonging to you is fenced-off and the land used for your own purposes …then after a period of time the land can be said to have been acquired by you via “Adverse Possession”….and the former owner will have lost possession.

I was looking to purchase several hundred acres in ranch-country west Texas last year and found that the fences (old but of unknown date) were ON the property…and about 10% of the total acreage being offered for sale was outside the fences. The surveys indicate the fences are well-within the property-lines.

This means that the fences definitely are part of the land being offered for sale….BUT….the land outside the fences can be claimed via “adverse possession” because the neighboring ranches have been grazing their cattle on it for at least 7 years (7 being the number in Texas, and these barbed-wire fences appear to be more than 20 years old).
If I bought that property I would have to plan for either to relocate the mile-long fences and face neighbors who might object by claiming adverse possession…. OR…. lose the use of the 10% of land outside the fences.….(which is about 110 acres of land.). I’d be paying for 110 acres, the use of which would not be mine.….and I wasn’t interested in fighting 3 different owners of adjacent land only to find the law would be largely on their side.