Who Owns the Fence

[LFP57]

I share a 6 ft wood privacy fence with a neighbor that was built before both families moved into the neighborhood. Few yrs back, a storm damaged the fence, not knowing who owned the fence, I went to the city hall and had them pull all of the building permits. There was a permit pulled for all fences except the shared fence, I went to the neighbor and provided the information and asked if he would consider sharing the cost of repairing the fence. He agreed but never to this day paid anything toward it. I ended submitting a claim with my homeowners insurance and they paid for the fence to be repaired, it was about 80 feet long, they had to replace all post and rebuild the fence sections.
The neighbor now wants to tear down this fence and replace it with a new one, at first I agreed, then on second thought, I changed my mind. Since I was 100 percent responsible to have it repaired, do I own the fence? I wrote the neighbor a letter and stated that he not tear down the shared fence until I have been provided a legal document stating who owns the fence. He clearly is not happy, so, what suggestion does anyone have that has been in this situation?

 

[D2Cat]

Have him put up any fence he chooses on his side of the disputed fence, one foot over. It's his and he has complete control (and expense) of it.

If he can prove the existing fence is his face remind him of the repair agreement and his lack or payment before replacing, and do not finance his fence.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

Up here, have to see the surveys of the properties NOT any 'building permits'. Since WHERE the fence lies ( and ownership) is in question, have a proper,legally binding SURVEY done. Just because the fence is 'there' doesn't MEAN it's ON the property line. I got an extra 6'x50' 'pie shape '.once as it made the fence line straight,instead of the legal ,but funny wedgy. Neighbour loved it ,made BOTH properties look 'right ' and proper.

 

[Fordtech86]

If I had neighbors like that, I would plant bushes and buy a Stihl hedge trimmer…

 

[jimh406]

We had a fence blow down, and the neighbors said they would pay for half. Funny thing, we never got the money. . It's ok. We built it ourselves. On one side of our line the neighbors filed a claim with their homeowners. I asked what we owed, and they said their insurance covered it and wouldn't take any money.

Just wondering, what is wrong with the fence that they want to replace it?

 

[NCL4701]

If you really want/need to know bad enough to spend a bit, get a surveyor to establish the actual property line precisely.

If the fence is on his property, it’s his fence regardless who put in the money and/or labor to put it up, and he can tear it down if he wants whether you want him to or not. If it’s on your side, it’s yours and you can do with it as you please regardless what he wants. If it’s dead on the line that would be a bit unusual, but you’d both co-own it. That’s the legal answer.

Sometimes the good neighbor/gentleman’s agreement answer is a bit different. I know personally I’ve had a neighbor who insisted I cut a large tree that was dead and imperiling her house. I found the pertinent corner stakes, clearly showed her it was 5’ on her side of the line, and showed her the tree was fine but the large poison ivy vine in it she very reasonably killed was tricking her into thinking the tree was dying. She still insisted it was dead, it was mine, and I needed to cut it. Told her I knew she wasn’t that stupid or unreasonable so my guess was she wanted it down for reasons known only to her, she’d gotten quotes to remove it, and she couldn’t afford to get it done. She admitted that was true. It was about 25’ from her house and 200 yards into a wooded area that starts 100 yards behind my house, so it was a big deal to her and meant nothing to me. I spent the rest of the day cutting the tree and hauling it to the wood yard. Had a mild case of poison ivy for a week and a half exactly as I knew I would.

But, you can’t have a good neighbor/gentlemen’s agreement scenario if you don’t have a good neighbor and aren’t dealing with a gentleman. In those cases you usually have to fall back to the letter of the law.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I share a 6 ft wood privacy fence with a neighbor that was built before both families moved into the neighborhood. Few yrs back, a storm damaged the fence, not knowing who owned the fence, I went to the city hall and had them pull all of the building permits. There was a permit pulled for all fences except the shared fence, I went to the neighbor and provided the information and asked if he would consider sharing the cost of repairing the fence. He agreed but never to this day paid anything toward it. I ended submitting a claim with my homeowners insurance and they paid for the fence to be repaired, it was about 80 feet long, they had to replace all post and rebuild the fence sections.
The neighbor now wants to tear down this fence and replace it with a new one, at first I agreed, then on second thought, I changed my mind. Since I was 100 percent responsible to have it repaired, do I own the fence? I wrote the neighbor a letter and stated that he not tear down the shared fence until I have been provided a legal document stating who owns the fence. He clearly is not happy, so, what suggestion does anyone have that has been in this situation?

Mending Wall
BY ROBERT FROST
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on a stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made,
But at spring mending-time we find them there.
I let my neighbor know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
We keep the wall between us as we go.
To each the boulders that have fallen to each.
And some are loaves and some so nearly balls
We have to use a spell to make them balance:
‘Stay where you are until our backs are turned!’
We wear our fingers rough with handling them.
Oh, just another kind of out-door game,
One on a side. It comes to little more:
There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.
He only says, ‘Good fences make good neighbors.’
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
‘Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't it
Where there are cows? But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offense.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.’ I could say ‘Elves’ to him,
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather
He said it for himself. I see him there
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me,
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father's saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, ‘Good fences make good neighbors.’

 

[LFP57]

We had a fence blow down, and the neighbors said they would pay for half. Funny thing, we never got the money. . It's ok. We built it ourselves. On one side of our line the neighbors filed a claim with their homeowners. I asked what we owed, and they said their insurance covered it and wouldn't take any money.

Just wondering, what is wrong with the fence that they want to replace it?

There's nothing wrong with the fence, it's good to go for another 20 + yrs. He put up a new pool this year, the fence on the opposite side of his yard was in need of repair, it was being propped up to keep it from falling down.

 

[LFP57]

Have him put up any fence he chooses on his side of the disputed fence, one foot over. It's his and he has complete control (and expense) of it.

If he can prove the existing fence is his face remind him of the repair agreement and his lack or payment before replacing, and do not finance his fence.

I believe the fence is in the correct position, really can't be moved in any one direction. I did remind him of his lack of payment, both in the letter I wrote to him and in person, he just got angry , threw the letter on the porch and stormed off the porch.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

Kinda sounds like the kind of neighbour you just wave 'hello' to and NOT talk to. Always be nice.
If (when ?) he pushes for the fence to be rebuilt, get him to show you a current survey and locate the 'bars'. After that, IF it's on the line, get HIM to pay for 100% up front, THEN show you the bills and pay 1/2.by check with MEME saying 'my 1/2 of fence with neighbour 'his name'

 

[GeoHorn]

I believe the fence is in the correct position, really can't be moved in any one direction. I did remind him of his lack of payment, both in the letter I wrote to him and in person, he just got angry , threw the letter on the porch and stormed off the porch.

What “position” do you consider correct? Definitely on Your Side?…or definitely on His Side…?? or plainly exactly on the property divide?

If ON the property line….. then tell him he can build a new fence on HIS SIDE of the property line…and future disagreement about who owns his new fence and what he builds will be avoided.

If I were to build a new fence I would prefer it to be 6-inches onto my property line so as to avoid such arguments.

30+ years ago, my neighbor Chuck and his wife welcomed me and mine to the new neighborhood development. We were the first owners of those new homes.
The developer built a wood privacy fence in the backyards…the back corner of which began on my property and the front corner being on his. When we first became acquainted, Chuck asked me how I felt about that and I said that if it was “OK” with him….it was “OK” with me…. and we got along fine.
A few years later Chuck sold out and moved an hour to the SouthEast into the country…. and a year later I sold and moved an hour away to the West…. two hours away from each other. Our young children are now grown, we attended each others’ childrens’ weddings…. and they’re now giving us gorgeous grandkids.
Chuck came to my place last year and helped me put up new siding.
This year I helped Chuck install new plumbing in his daughters’ country-home.
We went fishing together a few months ago at his Gulf Coast cabin…. and we’re planning a hog-hunt this fall at my place.
We are polar-opposites politically and religiously….. and get along just fine cancelling each other out in good humor..

 

[LFP57]

If you really want/need to know bad enough to spend a bit, get a surveyor to establish the actual property line precisely.

If the fence is on his property, it’s his fence regardless who put in the money and/or labor to put it up, and he can tear it down if he wants whether you want him to or not. If it’s on your side, it’s yours and you can do with it as you please regardless what he wants. If it’s dead on the line that would be a bit unusual, but you’d both co-own it. That’s the legal answer.

Sometimes the good neighbor/gentleman’s agreement answer is a bit different. I know personally I’ve had a neighbor who insisted I cut a large tree that was dead and imperiling her house. I found the pertinent corner stakes, clearly showed her it was 5’ on her side of the line, and showed her the tree was fine but the large poison ivy vine in it she very reasonably killed was tricking her into thinking the tree was dying. She still insisted it was dead, it was mine, and I needed to cut it. Told her I knew she wasn’t that stupid or unreasonable so my guess was she wanted it down for reasons known only to her, she’d gotten quotes to remove it, and she couldn’t afford to get it done. She admitted that was true. It was about 25’ from her house and 200 yards into a wooded area that starts 100 yards behind my house, so it was a big deal to her and meant nothing to me. I spent the rest of the day cutting the tree and hauling it to the wood yard. Had a mild case of poison ivy for a week and a half exactly as I knew I would.

But, you can’t have a good neighbor/gentlemen’s agreement scenario if you don’t have a good neighbor and aren’t dealing with a gentleman. In those cases you usually have to fall back to the letter of the law.

I believe in taking a man at his word until he proves I shouldn't and in this case, his reaction and attitude proved he is not a man of his word. The way he spoke to me is that a person that thinks they're the smartest person in the room, wants everything his way and then gets angry when he can't have it.

I've never applied for a building permit in my city, but I believe that the city would require a certain amount of information regarding the building site, ownership, etc., before it's approved. i don't know how the city differentiates a new construction vs. replacement/repair. I feel that when one removes all existing posts, drills all new holes and builds a complete new fence ( 3 sections about 240 ft.) it is not considered a repair/replacement. In my city, he must apply for a building permit as well as a permit for having a pool in his yard, I don't think he has pulled a permit for either.

 

[LFP57]

What “position” do you consider correct? Definitely on Your Side?…or definitely on His Side…?? or plainly exactly on the property divide?

If ON the property line….. then tell him he can build a new fence on HIS SIDE of the property line…and future disagreement about who owns his new fence and what he builds will be avoided.

If I were to build a new fence I would prefer it to be 6-inches onto my property line so as to avoid such arguments.

30+ years ago, my neighbor Chuck and his wife welcomed me and mine to the new neighborhood development. We were the first owners of those new homes.
The developer built a wood privacy fence in the backyards…the back corner of which began on my property and the front corner being on his. When we first became acquainted, Chuck asked me how I felt about that and I said that if it was “OK” with him….it was “OK” with me…. and we got along fine.
A few years later Chuck sold out and moved an hour to the SouthEast into the country…. and a year later I sold and moved an hour away to the West…. two hours away from each other. Our young children are now grown, we attended each others’ childrens’ weddings…. and they’re now giving us gorgeous grandkids.
Chuck came to my place last year and helped me put up new siding.
This year I helped Chuck install new plumbing in his daughters’ country-home.
We went fishing together a few months ago at his Gulf Coast cabin…. and we’re planning a hog-hunt this fall at my place.
We are polar-opposites politically and religiously….. and get along just fine cancelling each other out in good humor..

Good point, I don't know exactly if the fence is on mine/his side, it appears to be right down the middle of our two gates.
He wants to remove a perfectly good fence and replace it with one he prefers. The letter I wrote to him was polite, I mentioned that I wasn't trying to cause problems but I felt it was in both of our best interests for now and in the future with any new homeowners that we determine who it is exactly that owns the fence. From his attitude, anger, it is clear to me now that he differently would be trouble in the future if any issues arise concerning the fence, etc. I

For now, I think the best thing to do is to visit the city hall, pull all the building permits again and talk to the building department.

 

[GeoHorn]

Good point, I don't know exactly if the fence is on mine/his side, it appears to be right down the middle of our two gates.
He wants to remove a perfectly good fence and replace it with one he prefers. The letter I wrote to him was polite, I mentioned that I wasn't trying to cause problems but I felt it was in both of our best interests for now and in the future with any new homeowners that we determine who it is exactly that owns the fence. From his attitude, anger, it is clear to me now that he differently would be trouble in the future if any issues arise concerning the fence, etc. I

For now, I think the best thing to do is to visit the city hall, pull all the building permits again and talk to the building department.

I believe your BEST solution is to find the survey of your property and locate the corner “pins” which define the boundaries. If you cannot do this on your own, you’ll need to hire a surveyor or perhaps get the utility company to find them for you.

”Pins” are usually 3/8” or 1/2” rebar-rods (sometimes iron-pipe, etc…the survey will tell you) driven into the ground and can be found with a metal detector provided your survey is sufficiently descriptive to guide you to their approx. location.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I believe your BEST solution is to find the survey of your property and locate the corner “pins” which define the boundaries. If you cannot do this on your own, you’ll need to hire a surveyor or perhaps get the utility company to find them for you.

”Pins” are usually 3/8” or 1/2” rebar-rods (sometimes iron-pipe, etc…the survey will tell you) driven into the ground and can be found with a metal detector provided your survey is sufficiently descriptive to guide you to their approx. location.

Homeowners association suggests this is likely development property so the local municipality will have a copy of the survey plats. That and a tape measure should be all you need to resolve the matter. There is also a very real possibility the fence is on both properties and/or an easement and/or common ground.

Dan

 

[GeoHorn]

Homeowners association suggests this is likely development property so the local municipality will have a copy of the survey plats. That and a tape measure should be all you need to resolve the matter. There is also a very real possibility the fence is on both properties and/or an easement and/or common ground.

Dan

Dan I appreciate your post and believe it has good info…. I’m not trying to criticize your excellent advice…. but a written plat will still refer to pins or other identifiable markers and I doubt a tape measure and a written plat will simplify much unless the plat clarifies that fences must be on an easement or common-ground you mentioned.
I own two rental properties, Both of which have HOAs and fences are all-over the place in those neighborhoods. Why? …because a building permit for a fence is not definitive when “Joes Family Fence-builders” show up with a flat-bed trailer and 3 workers who can’t speak the language much less try to find a property line with a tape measure.
One of my properties has a home, an outbuilding, and a septic-system all neatly described and illustrated on the plat.…which shows the entire property to consist of 6-lots. The septic was pumped and inspected during the home prebuy inspection. The Lower Colorado River Authority inspector is who approved the septic.
Due to time-constraints I accepted the existing survey at closing. (No surveyor could be found who would complete a new survey within 3 months and the closing had to occur within 2-weeks.)
Yet, when the renters asked if they could put up a fence for a dog-kennel and I OK’d it…and the builders showed up and drilled down thru the septic drain-field … it was discovered it was not where illustrated, inspected/approved, and the HOA threatened a suit over the opened drains. Turns out the house was actually built across two of the lots and the septic and drain-field were on a completely different lot! (Fortunately I also own that lot.)
Just sayin’…. a surveyor might end up being necessary if the utility company isn’t cooperative in donating one.

 

[dirtydeed]

Is the current fence being used to limit access to his pool or does the pool have it's own fence (assuming in-ground pool)?

 

[ccoon520]

Outside of the legal side of it there is also another more personal way for you to look at it. Did you change your mind because the cost of the new fence is too high, you have pride in the fence you repaired, or was there some spite built in there? If it is the latter, is being stuck with the bill on a fence repair from years ago really worth this much effort?

Like I mentioned earlier this is a personal question that doesn't really need an answer here but making decisions out of spite is a situation I find myself in and while sometimes the situation calls for it, I do need to catch myself every so often and realize it might not be worth the price of admission.

If it is cost there isn't much you can do about it except be honest with your neighbor and say I can't afford your Taj Mahal of a fence but I can help with a white picket.

If it is you like the fence you fixed then you're not going to remove it without a court order so he can build his a foot closer to his house.

 

[jimh406]

Sounds like he's going for a particular look to compliment his pool, I'd let him put his fence inside his yard. It won't hurt anything really to have a double fence, and it would stink if you didn't like his "new" fence with it right in your face.

Also, you don't have to worry about him putting the fence just over the line, etc.

 

[Jchonline]

I share a 6 ft wood privacy fence with a neighbor that was built before both families moved into the neighborhood. Few yrs back, a storm damaged the fence, not knowing who owned the fence, I went to the city hall and had them pull all of the building permits. There was a permit pulled for all fences except the shared fence, I went to the neighbor and provided the information and asked if he would consider sharing the cost of repairing the fence. He agreed but never to this day paid anything toward it. I ended submitting a claim with my homeowners insurance and they paid for the fence to be repaired, it was about 80 feet long, they had to replace all post and rebuild the fence sections.
The neighbor now wants to tear down this fence and replace it with a new one, at first I agreed, then on second thought, I changed my mind. Since I was 100 percent responsible to have it repaired, do I own the fence? I wrote the neighbor a letter and stated that he not tear down the shared fence until I have been provided a legal document stating who owns the fence. He clearly is not happy, so, what suggestion does anyone have that has been in this situation?

To me it will just increase property value to have it in good condition so I would let them do it. However I would not pay a dime for it, as you had to fit the bill last time. Also still good to find out who actually owns the land it is on (and if there is an easement). Forget about the fence itself.