They timed the injection or measured the fluid… but my point is specifically what Kubota prohibits.
Dealer says I need motor
- Thread starter hornblende1
- Start date
Yeah its frustrating that they'd do that. However, I did have them do a compression test in front of me and the motor still turned over fine. SO fortunately I think the motor is ok. We will see soon.
Lil Foot
Well-known member
Lifetime Member
Equipment
1979 B7100DT Gear, Nissan Hanix N150-2 Excavator
The engine will turn over with broken rings or broken piston ring lands, which are the most common damages from using starting fluid. (ether)
The difference in ignition points (flammability) between ether and diesel is VAST.
Well, either way i will have them write a statement saying they used ether on the engine.
Different engine configuration. I no expert, but I understand that a non-direct injection motor can tolerate ether.
We used a lot of it in the Army on deuce-and-a-halfs and APC (Armored Personnel Carriers). The deuce used a multi-fuel engine that could run gasoline, so I imagine it was a lower compression. The APC ran a 318 Detroit, which I know was also used in some buses, but I don't know any more about it.
I know my dad used it when he was in the Army, too, working heavy equipment in the north of Canada, but I don't know what kind of engines they were.
It seems Kubota forbids it also on at least some IDI/PC diesel engines too: "Do not use starting fluid to prevent the serious trouble of the engine" for the S2600 engine, circa 1970's.
Ok i got the machine back today. Fuel is getting directly to the CR pump. I took the fuel metering valve off the pump to inspect for metal shavings, but didn't see any. That being said, the pump could still be bad. The machine doesn't have any error codes on it. Checked the interior fuses, will check the engine bay fuses after lunch. Where should I go from here?
You asked: where should I go from there?
Whatever you do, capture that information in writing, with them in the paper trail. Could be your best insurance. But you don't need to get them to write the statement as they may 'forget' or refuse. Instead you are better to (others may have a better suggestion about this tactic) send them an email summarising the event, including in it word for word as best you can what they told you about ether and hydraulic lock. But not only that point, as you don't want it to be too obvious that you are backing them into a corner. So at the end you could ask for the engine quote in writing, or something innocuous. Get their reply email, if they don't dispute the ether and lock, then you have a statement that they have seen and not disputed. Might not be 100% watertight in court (not that I'm suggesting that route), but better than nothing.
^^^^ This is excellent advice.
By the way, "hydraulic lock" requires that there be a fluid in the cylinders that prevents the engine from moving that piston any higher in that cylinder. Unless somebody poured something liquid in that engine, it's not hydro-locked. Spraying ether in it can't do it, unless they dumped a full can in there.
In other words, these people have ZERO clue what they are doing! You really should document all of this and report them to Kubota. They have no business working on lawnmowers, let alone tractors.
By the way, "hydraulic lock" requires that there be a fluid in the cylinders that prevents the engine from moving that piston any higher in that cylinder. Unless somebody poured something liquid in that engine, it's not hydro-locked. Spraying ether in it can't do it, unless they dumped a full can in there.
In other words, these people have ZERO clue what they are doing! You really should document all of this and report them to Kubota. They have no business working on lawnmowers, let alone tractors.
I suspect they used the term “hydrolok” to describe the sudden stoppage of rotation of the engine after they sprayed ether into the intakes…. the actual stoppage being caused by the premature ignition of the ether.
Possibly, but that just means they have no idea what they are talking about.
"sudden stoppage of rotation of the engine"
Ouch.
-me grabs popcorn-
Who here can prove that an engine that DID NOT RUN, that was taken to a dealer for diagnostics, and still DOES NOT RUN has internal engine damage caused by the dealer by said diagnosis?
Best of luck in court…
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer or a paid spokesperson. Free legal advice online is just free
Who here can prove that an engine that DID NOT RUN, that was taken to a dealer for diagnostics, and still DOES NOT RUN has internal engine damage caused by the dealer by said diagnosis?
Best of luck in court…
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer or a paid spokesperson. Free legal advice online is just free
I am almost positive that there is no internal damage to the engine. Its fueling related, whether electrical or mechanical is where i am now (i took a high pressure line off the rail, had someone crank the engine and no fuel came out of the rail). Having a different dealer come to my shop to take a look tomorrow.
Gotta solve 1 issue at a time. Can't assume the ether blew the motor up until the original issue of the motor not running is solved.
Also, the reason ether cant be used for modern diesels is because the glow plugs cause preignition of the ether. That's why archaic diesels don't mind the ether.
Gotta solve 1 issue at a time. Can't assume the ether blew the motor up until the original issue of the motor not running is solved.
Also, the reason ether cant be used for modern diesels is because the glow plugs cause preignition of the ether. That's why archaic diesels don't mind the ether.
You can't possibly know that at this point.
It's reasonable to assume that internal damage is NOT the cause of the original problem, but it is NOT reasonable to assume the dealer didn't cause internal damage while abusing your engine with ether. The fact that he "hydrolocked" it strongly suggests that he DID damage it, and it's going to be on your dime if you don't proceed cautiously. You can very easily throw away any basis for legal action if you rush ahead on the assumption that the engine is fine.
Exactly right, but make sure your new dealer and you preserve all evidence that you might need to recover the cost of installing a new engine. Talk to your new dealer, in detail, about the other dealer's actions.
Unless you are willing to just throw that away because you are positive there's no internal damage caused by the ether, of course.....
whitetiger
Moderator
Staff member
Equipment
Kubota tech..BX2370, RCK60, B7100HST, RTV900 w plow, Ford 1100 FWA
It uses a Denso common rail fuel system.
What are the DTCs received with Diagmaster?
What is the fuel flow from the fuel filter?
In reference to using starting fluid AKA ether in JD engines is these tractors had "cold weather starting kits" that had an opening to inject starting fluid that contained a ""small orifice that limited amount of starting fluid"" that could be introduced at any one given time.
Spraying excessive amounts of starter fluid into air intake on JD engines is an excellent method to break piston lands & piston rings especially on JD engines built in Dubuque, Mannheim & Saran factories.
GreensvilleJay
Well-known member
Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
One possible scenario....and someone who KNOWS how the 'computer' operates might be able to 'correct'...
While it was running fine.. the temperature sensor fails, and gives a single faulty high reading. The computer records this and shuts down the engine.
From then on, the computer will not allow engine to start and run AND displays the 'not true overheated' codes.
It 'should' be simple to erase ALL the error codes(both sets..), reset the computer to a KNOWN factory state, test temp sensor and then try to start it up.
When I used analog sensors for the greenhouse controllers, I always used 'Olympic averaging' ( read 10x, toss the high,low then avg the remaining 8 ). it does away with the 737MAX8 problem.
With the 'one wire' digital sensors, I read them twice as they have unique IDs and confirm they are 'OK'.
While it was running fine.. the temperature sensor fails, and gives a single faulty high reading. The computer records this and shuts down the engine.
From then on, the computer will not allow engine to start and run AND displays the 'not true overheated' codes.
It 'should' be simple to erase ALL the error codes(both sets..), reset the computer to a KNOWN factory state, test temp sensor and then try to start it up.
When I used analog sensors for the greenhouse controllers, I always used 'Olympic averaging' ( read 10x, toss the high,low then avg the remaining 8 ). it does away with the 737MAX8 problem.
With the 'one wire' digital sensors, I read them twice as they have unique IDs and confirm they are 'OK'.
kubota does not use that strategy
once over 240 deg F, the ECU records it, but to my knowledge does not shut the engine down. The engine shuts itself down usually in the form of mechanical seizure or whatever.
so any overheat situation should be stored in the ecu but without diagmaster, one cannot read stored codes.