Let'm die!

[Tornado]

Vaccinated are being told to wear masks to protect the unvaccinated, because they are still getting severe illness from COVID. Vaccinated are not. Spreading and getting severe illness are 2 very different things.

I have been randomly dropping in and reading some here but have resisted replying much. My Wife as some know here is a Director of Nursing at a nursing facility here in Florida. She has been dealing with covid daily since it started, often working 10 hours a day. Being DoN she also doesnt hardly get weekends off as the phone never stops ringing. Just really tired of covid, and all the constant fighting over it - not to mention all the misinformation that is being peddled all over the place at a massive volume.

With that said I did note this comment above and just wanted to correct this person. You suggest here that fully vaccinated individuals are not getting severe illness from covid. While it is true that vaccinated individuals have a lower probability of getting severe illness from covid, there are a lot of vaccinated people who are dieing of covid right now. My wife has worked on numerous cases her self, and she was the one who both gave them the vaccine, and then watched them die a few months later when the Delta variant exploded. We also personally know many others here who became very sick with covid and were fully vaccinated. With that said, the vaccines appear to have about a 60% effectiveness rate against the delta variant, so I am not anti vax. The fact is that there are a good number of cases of sickness and even death from vaccinated individuals, but there are certainly a lot more sickness and death from unvaccinated.

Few other points I would just make. The whole mask thing - They are largely ineffective at stopping covid transmission among the general public. The vast majority of people are wearing cloth type masks that do just about nothing. In addition to the masks themselves being ineffective, most people are wearing them improperly as well, reducing further any slim chance that they may help. N95 are effective at stopping the virus when worn properly, but it wouldn't be feasible for the general public to wear these all day. My wife, who has to wear them constantly routinely comes home with migraine headaches and sick to her stomach because of having to wear these masks for hours. Mandating masks has never made a whole lot of sense to us, because the data is fairly clear on how ineffective they are, and when you then couple that with just how poorly most people wear them, you're hovering near 0% effectiveness at stopping covid transmission.

Regarding Ivermectin. This is not an anti-viral drug. There is zero proof that it does anything at all against Sars-cov, or any other virus for that matter. People going and buying ivermectin for horses and then using it on themselves is completely stupid. We actually use Ivermectin, as my wife and I own horses and give our own shots. I wouldnt dare use this stuff on myself to combat covid. It is true that Ivermectin is used on humans to treat parasites, or as topical agents for some skin conditions, etc. There are people just going to local feed stores and buying this stuff up and just putting it into their bodies. Just really stupid. At the end of the day though, every adult can do with their body what they please, no matter how ignorant.

Be safe folks

 

[Tornado]

Has anyone seen the new study out of Israel? It has not undergone peer review just yet, but it was a massive study involving 70,000+ participants. The study was centered around natural immunity versus the Pfizer vaccine. The results of the study showed that natural immunity from getting and recovering from covid was many times more effective at preventing severe reinfection than individuals who had not had covid and had taken the vaccine. This is big news. If you have had covid in the past, as I did, then the odds are good that you have the best protection against the delta variant and any future variants that you can possibly have - many times better even than being fully vaccinated.

You can read the study here if you are interested: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full.pdf

 

[jimh406]

If you have had covid in the past, as I did, then the odds are good that you have the best protection against the delta variant and any future variants that you can possibly have - many times better even than being fully vaccinated.

That aligns with all I’ve read/heard. So, why aren’t we testing more people for antibodies other than it works against the “vaccine” story.

 

[Tornado]

That aligns with all I’ve read/heard. So, why aren’t we testing more people for antibodies other than it works against the “vaccine” story.

Well, because when your goal is to inoculate the public against a virus, testing everyone's antibody count first just doesn't make sense. It also would put an unnecessary burden on the medical profession if you had to test millions for anti body counts before giving a vaccine. Anti body counts also change over time, and change differently per individual. It would just be really illogical. I understand the vaccine argument, both sides of it. The vaccines are very effective. Should they be mandated however? That's another story.

 

[Henro]

Has anyone seen the new study out of Israel? It has not undergone peer review just yet, but it was a massive study involving 70,000+ participants. The study was centered around natural immunity versus the Pfizer vaccine. The results of the study showed that natural immunity from getting and recovering from covid was many times more effective at preventing severe reinfection than individuals who had not had covid and had taken the vaccine. This is big news. If you have had covid in the past, as I did, then the odds are good that you have the best protection against the delta variant and any future variants that you can possibly have - many times better even than being fully vaccinated.

You can read the study here if you are interested: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full.pdf

Thank you Tornado for taking the time to post a summary of the link.

Lot of meat there to digest, but at first look, two things came to mind.

First is the question of whether it is better to take one's chances and catch the virus, and (if one recovers) end up with a level of immunity, or if it would be better to get a vaccination and reduce the chances (and risk) of catching the virus to begin with.

Second was that they mention that getting a vaccination shot after recovering from the virus increases one's level of immunity/protection.

So I am not sure it is accurate to say that recovering from the virus gives the best possible protection against current viruses or future mutants.

I did find an article the other day by chance that addressed a difference between some vaccinations (regretfully, I did not bookmark it). That difference is that these vaccines attack only one of the something like 29 proteins making up the virus. While natural immunity, that results from recovery from infection, causes the body to attack several other of the virus proteins. So in that respect, natural immunity certainly looks superior to vaccine induced immunity that focuses on only one protein of the virus.

 

[Fordtech86]

natural immunity certainly looks superior to vaccine induced immunity that focuses on only one protein of the virus.

Thats some amazing science…sounds oddly familiar to how they used teach it

 

[Tornado]

So I am not sure it is accurate to say that recovering from the virus gives the best possible protection against current viruses or future mutants.

To clarify, my statement was not meant to account for those who take the vaccine in addition to having also been infected. I was merely making the point that natural immunity is the best single defense; that having recovered from covid is perhaps superior to any vaccine you can take.

Whether to get the vaccine or not in my opinion is a personal decision for each individual. Everything about this virus is really just a game of probabilities. Even getting the vaccine carries with it some risks - though they are rare, there are some risks. Some who got the vaccine have actually died from myocarditis and/or pericarditis as a reaction to the vaccine. To reiterate though, those reactions are rare but it is a probability. There is also the risk of an allergic reaction to the shot and going into anaphylactic shock. If you refuse the shot there is the chance of getting covid and being very sick. There is even a small chance that it kills you. There is also a chance that you get the shot, are fully vacinated, then get sick or die from covid anyways. All of these outcomes are probabilities. Weigh them and then make the best decision for yourself.

I have personally not been vaccinated. My wife has however. We both have had covid as well. Covid was nothing for us - matter fact my wife actually got more sick after the 2nd vaccine shot than she did from covid itself. It only lasted about 24 hours though, which is common with the vaccine reaction. To me, the worst I had from covid was I lost my taste and smell for several months. I never had a cough, never had a fever, never had any lung issues at all, I had simply what appeared to be just some minor sinus issues for a few days then lost taste/smell for months. I worked outside in the Florida summer while I had covid and was forced to stay home, and you wouldnt have known I had anything at all. Because of how easy my experience was with covid, and knowing I have some immunity from that infection is why I have not got the vaccine so far. There is a probability I could get the Delta variant and die from it though. Its all in the deck of cards. I may eventually get the vaccine if it continues, and the new Mu strain explodes as Delta has, and if the vaccine proves effective against that strain.

 

[Jchonline]

I have been randomly dropping in and reading some here but have resisted replying much. My Wife as some know here is a Director of Nursing at a nursing facility here in Florida. She has been dealing with covid daily since it started, often working 10 hours a day. Being DoN she also doesnt hardly get weekends off as the phone never stops ringing. Just really tired of covid, and all the constant fighting over it - not to mention all the misinformation that is being peddled all over the place at a massive volume.

With that said I did note this comment above and just wanted to correct this person. You suggest here that fully vaccinated individuals are not getting severe illness from covid. While it is true that vaccinated individuals have a lower probability of getting severe illness from covid, there are a lot of vaccinated people who are dieing of covid right now. My wife has worked on numerous cases her self, and she was the one who both gave them the vaccine, and then watched them die a few months later when the Delta variant exploded. We also personally know many others here who became very sick with covid and were fully vaccinated. With that said, the vaccines appear to have about a 60% effectiveness rate against the delta variant, so I am not anti vax. The fact is that there are a good number of cases of sickness and even death from vaccinated individuals, but there are certainly a lot more sickness and death from unvaccinated.

Few other points I would just make. The whole mask thing - They are largely ineffective at stopping covid transmission among the general public. The vast majority of people are wearing cloth type masks that do just about nothing. In addition to the masks themselves being ineffective, most people are wearing them improperly as well, reducing further any slim chance that they may help. N95 are effective at stopping the virus when worn properly, but it wouldn't be feasible for the general public to wear these all day. My wife, who has to wear them constantly routinely comes home with migraine headaches and sick to her stomach because of having to wear these masks for hours. Mandating masks has never made a whole lot of sense to us, because the data is fairly clear on how ineffective they are, and when you then couple that with just how poorly most people wear them, you're hovering near 0% effectiveness at stopping covid transmission.

Regarding Ivermectin. This is not an anti-viral drug. There is zero proof that it does anything at all against Sars-cov, or any other virus for that matter. People going and buying ivermectin for horses and then using it on themselves is completely stupid. We actually use Ivermectin, as my wife and I own horses and give our own shots. I wouldnt dare use this stuff on myself to combat covid. It is true that Ivermectin is used on humans to treat parasites, or as topical agents for some skin conditions, etc. There are people just going to local feed stores and buying this stuff up and just putting it into their bodies. Just really stupid. At the end of the day though, every adult can do with their body what they please, no matter how ignorant.

Be safe folks

As far as vaccinated getting severe illness, you are correct that some vaccinated do get sick and die. However, the incidence for vaccinated vs unvaccinated is quite different.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html shows around 12000 breakthrough cases resulting in hospitalization or death. So 173,000,000 vaccinated with 12000 severe illnesses. That is a .006% chance of severe illness.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e5.htm shows the results of a study conducted may - end of July. Now this could be behind the curve as I mention below, but right now it is the most reliable reviewed data we have. Vaccinated are 29 times more likely to be hospitalized.


I know to your wife it may look like there are large percentages of UNvaccinated folks getting really sick, but unless the reporting to the CDC is significantly delayed and she is seeing it before they do it just seems that way.

If you have evidence based data to show differently, please share.

 

[Jchonline]

Thank you Tornado for taking the time to post a summary of the link.

Lot of meat there to digest, but at first look, two things came to mind.

First is the question of whether it is better to take one's chances and catch the virus, and (if one recovers) end up with a level of immunity, or if it would be better to get a vaccination and reduce the chances (and risk) of catching the virus to begin with.

Second was that they mention that getting a vaccination shot after recovering from the virus increases one's level of immunity/protection.

So I am not sure it is accurate to say that recovering from the virus gives the best possible protection against current viruses or future mutants.

I did find an article the other day by chance that addressed a difference between some vaccinations (regretfully, I did not bookmark it). That difference is that these vaccines attack only one of the something like 29 proteins making up the virus. While natural immunity, that results from recovery from infection, causes the body to attack several other of the virus proteins. So in that respect, natural immunity certainly looks superior to vaccine induced immunity that focuses on only one protein of the virus.

The best scenario I can think of is vaccinated getting the virus. Your risk of severe illness is extremely low, and you would gain natural immunity.

 

[sheepfarmer]

As far as vaccinated getting severe illness, you are correct that some vaccinated do get sick and die. However, the incidence for vaccinated vs unvaccinated is quite different.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html shows around 12000 breakthrough cases resulting in hospitalization or death. So 173,000,000 vaccinated with 12000 severe illnesses. That is a .006% chance of severe illness.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e5.htm shows the results of a study conducted may - end of July. Now this could be behind the curve as I mention below, but right now it is the most reliable reviewed data we have. Vaccinated are 29 times more likely to be hospitalized.


I know to your wife it may look like there are large percentages of vaccinated folks getting really sick, but unless the reporting to the CDC is significantly delayed and she is seeing it before they do it just seems that way.

If you have evidence based data to show differently, please share.

Typo end of third from last paragraph, should be UNvaccinated.

 

[jimh406]

You can quote whatever statistics you want, but the fact remains that nobody knows the long term impact of the vaccine.

For those of us vaccinated, we hope not much of a negative consequence if we were lucky enough not to have short term impact, but it will be years before anyone knows for sure what this type of vaccine will do to the population.

For those keeping score, it’s only been barely over a year since they started the first vaccine trial. Coercing people to take the vaccine even with the vaccinated spreading Covid and likely to require never ending boosters is idiotic. Yet, here we are.

 

[Henro]

You can quote whatever statistics you want, but the fact remains that nobody knows the long term impact of the vaccine.

For those of us vaccinated, we hope not much of a negative consequence if we were lucky enough not to have short term impact, but it will be years before anyone knows for sure what this type of vaccine will do to the population.

For those keeping score, it’s only been barely over a year since they started the first vaccine trial. Coercing people to take the vaccine even with the vaccinated spreading Covid and likely to require never ending boosters is idiotic. Yet, here we are.

While it is true that vaccinated people that have breakthrough infections can spread the Delta variant, I believe it’s also true that only a small percentage of vaccinated people suffer breakthrough infections and get into a position to spread the virus.

On the other hand, it’s reported that 90% or better of the current infections are suffered by unvaccinated people. The net result is that the unvaccinated are 90% more likely to spread the virus to others than the vaccinated are. Not exact calculations but not too hard to see the picture.

After a few years, if nothing negative appears regarding after effects of becoming vaccinated, then the claim will evolve to needing to watch what’s going on for decades. This might be valid.

I worked a good portion of my life in heavy industry. Certain things were required such as eye protection, hearing protection, hardhats, and even a vaccination for hepatitis B in one case. Don’t Comply and say goodbye. So it’s not uncommon for us to be coerced into doing things that we might not like.

But the way I look at it is when you get older, especially when you’re over 70, one can only hope to be around decades (or even years)later to worry about after effects of the vaccination. Probably works the same for somebody over 60. So if one is in the high-risk group, he probably should get vaccinated, if the long range affects are his primary concern. But of course it’s a personal choice.

 

[D2Cat]

We're living in a state of confusion!!

 

[Jchonline]

Typo end of third from last paragraph, should be UNvaccinated.

Fixed thank you

 

[Henro]

We're living in a state of confusion!!

Your link did not work for me but I was able to search it out.

Edit: For those not up to viewing the linked video, the claim is that natural immunity resulting from infection is superior to immunity provided by vaccination.

I don’t dispute the conclusion, and actually I mentioned something very similar in a previous post.

But I think we should not lose sight of the fact that if you do get infected, if you’re unvaccinated to begin with, you have a very high risk of a serious illness or even death, as compared to someone else who is vaccinated Before exposure.

So if you elect not to get vaccinated and take your chances good for you. But it’s a risk benefit thing. The risk being if you are unvaccinated, and you catch the virus, you have a MUCH greater chance of ending up in a casket than you do if you’re vaccinated. Granted for most this won’t happen, but it is a risk.

And if you are vaccinated and suffer a breakthrough infection, I would imagine you end up with the same protection that unvaccinated people who are infected end up with, if they recover from the infection.

So it boils down to: Do you feel lucky...?

 

[jimh406]

So it boils down to: Do you feel lucky...?

For both getting vaccinated, or getting Covid.

 

[RCW]

I plan to get the 3rd shot as soon as it becomes available to me.

May be late this month.

'Nuf said.

 

[random]

What people are you referring to? My in-laws live in Port Pirie, South Australia and Brisbane, Queensland, and my wife's more remote family is scattered all over South Australia. We speak with some of them 3-5 times a week. They're not telling us about any parties because they love being locked down within 5 KM of their homes. The Aussie police are actually arresting people for gathering at funerals and church. Zero tolerance for social gatherings, so that would explain the lack of parties. The lockdowns have all but wiped out the service industry such as restaurants, pubs, and motels. Those things are a huge part of Australian culture.

You've been watching too much Communist News Network.

I read comments in various places by Aussies celebrating the lockdowns and aggressive enforcement measures. There's the "people" I referred to.

 

[random]

OK, but how are those particles of virus moved through the air? Seems obvious they are moved by air currents. And if a mask reduces air currents from the mouth/nose of an infected person, would the mask not have some value?

I don’t think it a question of particle size, but rather if movement can be inhibited or not.

I take it you didn't read the link I posted to the Emerging Infectious Disease Journal and what they concluded about masks?

How much air gets blown out the sides of a mask? How much of a viral load is being pushed out when someone breathes through a saturated mask? How much is a mask helping when it's pulled down under the nose?

A bigger problem, though: How many people end up ignoring almost all other safety protocols just because they put on their magic talisman? I don't know about where you live, but around here, people wear a mask (incorrectly most of the time) and completely forget about everything else. So (even ignoring my questions above, or the decades real-world studies about mask effectiveness) if people aren't following ALL protocols and are wearing masks incorrectly, what good is it actually doing?

 

[random]

Does this actually happen? I ask because I honestly don’t know.

The only thing I’ve seen is people (or others) responding, to what they think are invalid claims about something, with what they believe is factual information, that is counter to whatever the claim was.

I never viewed this as trying to silence a source. More like trying to show that a certain claim may not be based in fact. Just my impression…

For starters, social media platforms are suspending or flat-out canceling accounts for "unapproved" statements.