Water Well Advice

WFM

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My exwife would always complain about our water having iron and staining over time white towels or socks. I learned colored towles and socks ect don't show stains and I used to tell her our water an't the best. But Thank God we always have water and have never run out. Maine is down about 6" of rain this summer. So possibly this weekend I'll measure mine. Its a 22' dug tile well at the lowest point in my field behind the house. A deep well pump of course just like drilled wells have. The lowest I've ever seen it is 7'.
I had asked my nephew who is a geothermo scientist in oregon a few yrs ago about the reservoir of water outside the well tile. He had a excate number of gallons of water per foot the ground there would hold. And it was thousands in reserve per foot outside my tiles waiting to enter.
Perhaps this weekend I'll measure it.
And no commission on helping my friend. He's 80 and would help anyone who asked or not. A true friend. A hard trait to find in todays world.
 
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WFM

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Here's a poor mans well that has never gone dry. Measured it yesterday , 11 1/2' feet of water in a 22' well. The lowest in past years I've ever seen it is 7' feet. Never lower.
As you can see its 'way' down back in my field. I had a friend from Vermont who dowsed with brass welding rods back in 1995. Found the vein several times crossing back and forth. I marked it and had it dug there.
 

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GreensvilleJay

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curious...
pump ?? WHERE'S the pump ??
Is that really the well casing with 90* DOWN elbow ,or does the pipe elbow go OUT of that room through the white wall ?
All wells here are 6" steel casings so 4" submerssible's slide down..
Going to be 'intereseting ' to see more pictures of the installation !!
 

torch

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Reading through this thread, I see you have received some good advice and some irrelevant advice.

My system is a typical pump in the bottom of the well,
That is called a submersible pump. As opposed to a jet pump or piston pump where the pump is at the surface. A submersible pump system cannot suck air into the piping as the piping is always under presssure -- any leaks will result in water leaking out. The only way for a submersible pump to introduce air into the system is drawing the water level down so low the pump itself sucks air into the intake.

which goes thru a pressure tank set at 40 PSI on the surface.
That is a typical pre-set pressure. But as mentioned earlier in the thread it should be adjusted to 2 psi below the cut-in pressure of the pump (ie: the lowest water pressure when the pump kicks in). So if the pump's pressure switch is set to cut in at 40 psi and cut out at 60psi, the air pressure in the bladder tank should be adjusted to 38psi. This will ensure maximum use of the water space without damage to the air bladder.

I've been getting air in the water lines which is evident by sputtering water.
Usually when taking a shower.
One way to get air in the lines is bacterial growth in the hot water heater -- usually accompanied by bad odours like rotten eggs. But that would be noticed all the time, since the outlet of the water heater is at the top and air rises.

I think the most likely source is the suction of your submersible pump, particularly since the problem is most noted during a high use event such as taking a shower. Also since you are now observing turbidity in the water which was not previously present.

Several have noted that the water level above the pump intake is important -- and it is. However, the height is only half the equation. Equally important is the recovery rate -- ie: how fast can you pump water out of the well without lowering the level substantially?

Let us say, for the sake of example, that you have 5' of water above the pump in a 6" well casing. That is about 7 gallons. And let us say that your shower delivers 2-1/2 gallons per minute. If the well has an extremely low recovery rate, you will draw the 5' off in about 3 minutes. If your well has a recovery rate of at least 2.5GPM, you will never draw the water down to the pump because the well will refill as fast as you are drawing it off.

If you draw the water level down close to the pump, it tends to form vortices (just like water going down a drain) which start to draw air and also stirs up sediment which is also drawn in, causing turbidity in the water at your tap. Ie: cloudy water in your glass.

this is a very wet area in the forest. We have a year around stream and local marshland.
Lots of water at the surface. But elsewhere you note it is a deep well -- and that is probably true since you have a submersible pump rather than a less expensive jet pump. What's between the surface and the bottom of the well? The fact that the water does accumulate at the surface rather than drain away suggests the intervening earth is rather impermeable -- rock or clay or similar. If it was a big pile of sand, the water would drain away and you wouldn't need a deep well in the first place.

It may take months, years or hundreds of years for that water at the surface to reach the aquifer. Your recovery rate will depend greatly on factors like how permeable that aquifer layer is and how much water are others in the area drawing from that aquifer.

Records from when the well was drilled should include the recovery rate at that date. If the recovery rate has diminished, it is an indication that the local aquifer is being depleted faster than it can supply. While one individual household will not have a significant impact, it should be a wake-up call for everyone in the area to limit their demands on the shared resource.

Shorter showers, flow restricted shower heads, low-flow toilets, etc will all help both your immediate situation with your personal well, but if everyone gets on board it will help maintain the aquifer itself. But good luck with that -- all too many people would rather stick their head in the sand and/or claim restrictions on water use are an attempt to undermine their individual freedoms.

Drilling a deeper well might access more depth of aquifer, but that is an expensive solution that only contributes to the overall problem of draining the aquifer for everyone.

3> The water heater is going bad. The water heater is 30 years old. It's not leaking at all. Seems to work fine.
They all seem to work fine until the day they fail ;-). How often do you check/replace the zinc anode inside the water tank? If you are like most homeowners, you just said "The what ???"

On the top of the water tank will be a "plug", with a large hex head and usually screwed into a 3/4" or 1" female pipe thread outlet. That "plug" is actually a long sacraficial rod, maybe 3' long. The purpose of that rod is to corrode, preventing the steel tank from corrosion. Same principle as zinc anodes on boat hulls and outboard motors. If it is maintained, the tank itself will last indefinitely. If it is ignored, the tank will eventually fail. How long it will last is dependent upon your specific water PH, etc. Typically 2 to 5 years. Some larger tanks have 2 rods.
 
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NorthwoodsLife

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Reading through this thread, I see you have received some good advice and some irrelevant advice.



That is called a submersible pump. As opposed to a jet pump or piston pump where the pump is at the surface. A submersible pump system cannot suck air into the piping as the piping is always under presssure -- any leaks will result in water leaking out. The only way for a submersible pump to introduce air into the system is drawing the water level down so low the pump itself sucks air into the intake.



That is a typical pre-set pressure. But as mentioned earlier in the thread it should be adjusted to 2 psi below the cut-in pressure of the pump (ie: the lowest water pressure when the pump kicks in). So if the pump's pressure switch is set to cut in at 40 psi and cut out at 60psi, the air pressure in the bladder tank should be adjusted to 38psi. This will ensure maximum use of the water space without damage to the air bladder.



One way to get air in the lines is bacterial growth in the hot water heater -- usually accompanied by bad odours like rotten eggs. But that would be noticed all the time, since the outlet of the water heater is at the top and air rises.

I think the most likely source is the suction of your submersible pump, particularly since the problem is most noted during a high use event such as taking a shower. Also since you are now observing turbidity in the water which was not previously present.

Several have noted that the water level above the pump intake is important -- and it is. However, the height is only half the equation. Equally important is the recovery rate -- ie: how fast can you pump water out of the well without lowering the level substantially?

Let us say, for the sake of example, that you have 5' of water above the pump in a 6" well casing. That is about 7 gallons. And let us say that your shower delivers 2-1/2 gallons per minute. If the well has an extremely low recovery rate, you will draw the 5' off in about 3 minutes. If your well has a recovery rate of at least 2.5GPM, you will never draw the water down to the pump because the well will refill as fast as you are drawing it off.

If you draw the water level down close to the pump, it tends to form vortices (just like water going down a drain) which start to draw air and also stirs up sediment which is also drawn in, causing turbidity in the water at your tap. Ie: cloudy water in your glass.



Lots of water at the surface. But elsewhere you note it is a deep well -- and that is probably true since you have a submersible pump rather than a less expensive jet pump. What's between the surface and the bottom of the well? The fact that the water does accumulate at the surface rather than drain away suggests the intervening earth is rather impermeable -- rock or clay or similar. If it was a big pile of sand, the water would drain away and you wouldn't need a deep well in the first place.

It may take months, years or hundreds of years for that water at the surface to reach the aquifer. Your recovery rate will depend greatly on factors like how permeable that aquifer layer is and how much water are others in the area drawing from that aquifer.

Records from when the well was drilled should include the recovery rate at that date. If the recovery rate has diminished, it is an indication that the local aquifer is being depleted faster than it can supply. While one individual household will not have a significant impact, it should be a wake-up call for everyone in the area to limit their demands on the shared resource.

Shorter showers, flow restricted shower heads, low-flow toilets, etc will all help both your immediate situation with your personal well, but if everyone gets on board it will help maintain the aquifer itself. But good luck with that -- all too many people would rather stick their head in the sand and/or claim restrictions on water use are an attempt to undermine their individual freedoms.

Drilling a deeper well might access more depth of aquifer, but that is an expensive solution that only contributes to the overall problem of draining the aquifer for everyone.



They all seem to work fine until the day they fail ;-). How often do you check/replace the zinc anode inside the water tank? If you are like most homeowners, you just said "The what ???"

On the top of the water tank will be a "plug", with a large hex head and usually screwed into a 3/4" or 1" female pipe thread outlet. That "plug" is actually a long sacraficial rod, maybe 3' long. The purpose of that rod is to corrode, preventing the steel tank from corrosion. Same principle as zinc anodes on boat hulls and outboard motors. If it is maintained, the tank itself will last indefinitely. If it is ignored, the tank will eventually fail. How long it will last is dependent upon your specific water PH, etc. Typically 2 to 5 years. Some larger tanks have 2 rods.
I seriously appreciate your input and responding to my questions and comments. Telling me like it is.

So when can you come over to my place in Wisconsin and diagnose, repair or replace?

Seriously tho, if you're close, you'll be paid your asking price or not asked to do the job.

I'm kind of heckling here, and I'm joking with you because I appreciate your advice. I mean it respectfully as another Kubota owner. Edit, I'm not heckling you, but my own misfortune. If you're interested, PM me.

I'm having a hard time in this 'new to us" area that my wife and I live.
It's hard finding people who want more work. Getting someone to even come look at a job is hard enough. Then they don't quote it!

I'm kinda at the point where, I've done home and building construction, commercially and at my home. I've plumbed water heaters, swimming pool pumps, and of course sinks and toilets. But a water well is new to me. I can learn 75 percent of it and do it myself, but it's the experience of a professional in this new project that I'll never have.
 
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NorthwoodsLife

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curious...
pump ?? WHERE'S the pump ??
Is that really the well casing with 90* DOWN elbow ,or does the pipe elbow go OUT of that room through the white wall ?
All wells here are 6" steel casings so 4" submerssible's slide down..
Going to be 'intereseting ' to see more pictures of the installation !!
I'll post pictures as this project unfolds.
 

NorthwoodsLife

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Here's a poor mans well that has never gone dry. Measured it yesterday , 11 1/2' feet of water in a 22' well. The lowest in past years I've ever seen it is 7' feet. Never lower.
As you can see its 'way' down back in my field. I had a friend from Vermont who dowsed with brass welding rods back in 1995. Found the vein several times crossing back and forth. I marked it and had it dug there.
I'm personally not usually intrigued by magic tricks.
But the whole divining rod thing has me thinking that there's a method, possibly unknown, that that physics as we know it yet unsolved.

You're not the first person I've heard of that had great results.
 

GreensvilleJay

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I was sceptical of 'dowsing' until the fire chief here showed what he could do. He was bang on the money for the new well across the street. Even better, his friend was 'decomissioning' the old Studebaker plant in Hamilton(decades ago...). Friend asks him to 'find the water pipes'. City engineers are there(4 of them), with 'paperwork' for where the 'mains' are. Chief walks about ,says 'here's one', engineers confirm ,according to the drawings.. more walking, here's another.... yes, again city confirms and said that's all of them ... he walks some more, here's another. NO said the 'engineers', NOTHING there.,NO. Friend asks, are you sure ? Chief say yes. City say NO. Guy starts digging up concrete floor, hit an 8" water main, probably 80-90PSI ! Chief said it was amazing how FAST and FAR that water went.... the water from the main the CITY said 'doesn't exist' !
Always wondered how long it took to find th eshutoff for that 'desn't exist' water main as well...
 
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Jsjac

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Air can get into the system if the oring at the pit less adapter is leaking.
When the pump is off, if the water above the pump drains back at all it can suck air in.
This happens more when the pump was installed with the factory check valve on the pump. If a high quality check valve was installed on top of the pump this will not happen as much.
 
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Dieseldonato

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I'm personally not usually intrigued by magic tricks.
But the whole divining rod thing has me thinking that there's a method, possibly unknown, that that physics as we know it yet unsolved.

You're not the first person I've heard of that had great results.
It has something to do with the earth's electromagnetic field and the water is a "void" in the ground. The "void" changes the magnetic field and the rods will cross. Did that a lot at the township to find abandon storm drains and sewer mains. Doesn't work for stuff real deep unless they are really big.
 
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bird dogger

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We used bent rods to "dowse/locate" the grounding grid and cable routes in our older substations built before accurate records were kept. They also located control cable routes that left the substation and went underground out to circuit switchers on poles outside of the substation. The rods would also find old abandoned cables from other companies that there were no records of.

I've also used them (before calling the "one call" number) to locate underground telephone lines, electric, gas and water lines. One co-worker had horses and knew there had been water lines out to a couple of outdoor hydrants that had been literally pulled out with a skidster years ago. He asked if they could be found, flushed and put back into use. One of them was to be extended into the old barn. He only knew generally where the old hydrants had been. The plumbing into his house was still intact with the shutoff valves. Dowsing found the water lines (along with the other utilities). The one we tapped into to extend into his barn was 8 ft down! These were plastic waterlines only when first installed.

Because dowsing seems to work (at least always has for me) on plastic tubing, electric cable, steel rod grid work, iron pipe, etc.,...........my theory is that the rods somehow are able to detect the disturbed earth where the utility, water veins, etc., are located. It's the only common denominator.

One day I'm going to solder on some little transistors, resistors, etc. into a mini circuit powered by a dead button cell battery to really impress/baffle the clients! It'll be the new & improved version dowsing rod.
A little beeper that could be activated when the rods crossed would really add to the spectacle!! :ROFLMAO:
 
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torch

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So when can you come over to my place in Wisconsin and diagnose, repair or replace?
My hourly rate would be quite reasonable, but the travel time would be a killer! Plus there's that whole Immigration/green card issue... <lol>
 
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NorthwoodsLife

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So, a precursory look today at my well system.
It appears that there are 2 full 90 degree ells at the wellcap. Back to back.

1 90 on the x to y axis, vertical out of the well to horizontal. And one on the y to z axis, horizontal south to horizontal west.

A glass of water comes out cloud but it clears in about a minute or two to clear water. Starting at the bottom clearing until the top clears. Bottom to top. Looks like it's cavitatated air. I don't know but if is microscopic bubbles I would think that it's caused by the pump. Or by the aerator in each faucet.

I spoke to a highly recommended well company and he said to... Open the upstairs faucets, and shut off the pump and let it sit a little.
Then turn on the pump leaving the faucets open until no air is heard.

It's not rocket science as I think about but I appreciate his personal time out his busy schedule to call me.

And if that doesn't work, he said make an appointment, we're a month out backlogged.

That guy will have my business.

That being said. I can't drill a new well, but I can replace or repair pretty much everything else. And do it right. Tidy and correct.

But at this stage in my life I'd rather pay and watch, than do it myself and be watched -getting paid by DIY for my efforts. But my wife loves that.

No inuendos intended or condoned.😅
 
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