Utility Tractor Backhoe attachment frame vs hitch vs Mini Excavator

[amschind]

I am steadily building up the portfolio of tools that I need to get started working on my land (NE Texas, hillier than you would expect for that area, sandy clay soils with more rocks that is common for that area), and the M6800 4x4 that I keep asking questions on is the central part of that plan. I'm about halfway through getting the loader worked out, which will turn into new tires+ballast, and the next question is digging. Every square foot that I own which is not a powerline right of way is covered with trees. I will pay folks with big Caterpillars to clear about 20 total acres for a vineyard and grass as well as building a ~3.5-4ac pond/dam; I have no illusions about my ability and even less desire to fight that battle myself, because the likely outcome is that it proceeds so slowly that it simply never happens AND breaks my undersized equipment along the way. The point of that preface is that paying folks with big iron to perform the large tasks is already the plan.

I will still need to dig holes, and I don't want to call a guy with a D8 every time I need dirt moved. The areas where I will need digging will have heavy but possibly not 100% overlap with the areas that were professionally cleared and hit with a root plow (There are rocks in many parts of the property some of which were of the size that an iron strip mining operation left them alone). Again, I add this preface to point out that there are areas where any machinery short of explosives wouldn't cut it, and I am not going to drive up a hill and start beating on a giant rock.

One of my major goals in all of this is maximize my time with regard to maintenance. The idea on the M6800 is enough power with as few parts as possible, which dramatically simplifies working on/diagnosing/fixing/maintaining it. I am willing to trade the convenience of a machine that works BETTER for the convenience of a machine that works nearly all of the time with me maintaining it. I am at a crossroads over the idea of a backhoe vs a mini-excavator.

All of the advice that I have gotten is that a 3-point backhoe attachment is very small and likely to tear up the 3 point hitch. Many of the same folks have, regularly use, and enjoy frame mount backhoe attachments, and report that these are not challenging to remove when using the 3 point is necessary. Many other folks who dig quite a bit point out that a mini-excavator is far more effective for any volume of work vs the best tractor backhoe attachment. This leads to 3 questions, 1 general and 3 specific to me.

1) A less effective tool doesn't prevent me from doing anything, it just lowers the bar for "call a pro". I am looking at something like a KX121-3, which seem to be available in the $20-25k range. The wild card is maintenance, which I assume best case is another $2-3k just making sure that everything is in good shape for the machine's new life with me. The hydraulics on such a machine are a big step up in terms of complexity AND in terms of the amount of contortion to get a wrench on a leak, which means that the big cost for a used mini excavator is likely to be the time and money of keeping it running. My career means that I can pretty quickly get to the point where the practical choice is "pay someone to do it", and I get my fill of busting my knuckles upside down in a rusty machine pretty fast, particularly when it is technically "leisure time".

2) I have a Westendorf TA-26 on this tractor, and I'm still looking into exactly how the mounts for a frame mount backhoe play with a loader mount bracket (this model has a rectangle beam that goes back to the rear axle). If I had to pick, I have to choose the loader. I see that there are many Kubota tractors with backhoes and loaders, so this seems like a problem that has been solved, BUT I will point out that Woods told me that they do not make mounting brackets for the M6800 and that my only option for them would be a 3 point hitch mounted backhoe.

3) I assume that I want a PTO driven hydraulic pump, both for simplicity as well as the fact that the M6800 only manages 11 gpm split between the power steering, loader, and rear remotes, which would severely limit the size of such a backhoe.

4) Given questions 2 and 3, I am trying to cross reference between a likely Kubota brand backhoe attachment which has a mounting bracket for my tractor AND which uses a PTO drive. I have seen the M4711 (which appears to be a Bradco/Paladin spray painted orange) suggested on this site, and am curious about that. I have tried to call Paladin before, and the experience of getting lost in a phone tree almost immediately was concerning for ongoing customer support for legacy items.

 

[MOOTS]

If you’re asking about an excavator… get the excavator. Extra cost and maintenance will be long forgotten once productivity takes over.

 

[amschind]

If you’re asking about an excavator… get the excavator. Extra cost and maintenance will be long forgotten once productivity takes over.

That's my big concern...that I spend the time and effort to get a good used backhoe attachment+bracket for $6-7k, start using it, and figure that that it is a backhoe shaped weight and that I still need a mini excavator.

 

[MOOTS]

That's my big concern...that I spend the time and effort to get a good used backhoe attachment+bracket for $6-7k, start using it, and figure that that it is a backhoe shaped weight and that I still need a mini excavator.

I think that will be the case. We have a JD110 TLB at work, absolutely hate that thing for backhoe work. We also have a KX033, that I can run all day. Wiggle sticks will wear you out quick.

 

[mcmxi]

@amschind, very interesting post. I've had a lot of conversations with the manager of the local Kubota dealership about new and used excavators. His advice on used (for me) is something in the 5 to 6 ton range with under 2,000 hours on the hour meter. He bought the BX25D that I had for five years, and despite that little tractor having a backhoe, he bought a used Kubota excavator for the reasons that @MOOTS mentioned i.e. productivity and capability.

I would say that most here consider a 3-point backhoe to be a bad idea. The big appeal for many with tractor mounted backhoes is that they're relatively cost effective, they're reasonably useful, and the cost is easier to live with when they're not used much. That's not the same for an excavator. There used to be a factory backhoe available for the M7060/M6060 tractors, and to be honest, if I could have bought one I probably would have, and then not invest in an excavator at all.

I often check Craigslist for used excavators because I realized earlier this year that I simply cannot justify buying a new one given the cost, and the amount of hours it'd get used. Perhaps once you have one you start to find more uses for it and then wonder how you managed without it. This Wacker Neuson model is appealing, but I don't know anything about the Perkins engine or overall quality of WN machines.

2019 Waker Neuson EZ53 Excavator - heavy equipment - by dealer - sale - craigslist

*Price Reduced* 2019 Waker Neuson EZ53 Fleet maintained Hours - 1585 Engine - Perkins HP - 58.9 Weight - 14,000lb Bucket - 24" Digging Long stick, Vertical Digging System, thumb and quick bucket...

kalispell.craigslist.org

Good luck with your decision, but I have to agree with you about regretting the investment of money into something that you'll outgrow.

 

[dirtydeed]

Have you looked into a dedicated TLB like Kubota L47, M62? They're pretty stout and still have the ability to drop the hoe off the back quickly and throw 3 point attachments on it. You just can't remove the loader (easily).

Based on your description, I wouldn't touch a 3pt hitch mounted hoe on your tractor if you plan on any heavy work. You're asking for trouble.

As others have already posted, nothing beats a mini for digging. However, if you also have to move that dirt, maybe a dedicated TLB would do? You'd just need to keep your expectations in check and put up with the fact that it may take you longer.

I have both a small backhoe attachment and a small mini. I'd say that I choose the mini for 95% of the digging task (and many other tasks as well) over the small backhoe attachment. Most of the Kubota backhoe attachments are just too slow (and weak) for my liking.

a KX-121 is a little beast that will out dig any Kubota TLB.

Best of luck in your decision.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

Given the choice of TLB or 3ph BH vs miniexcavator, in your case get the miniex.
Miniex is a faster,easier to operate machine so will get YOUR jobs done better,sooner.
perhaps one option is to rent a miniex,say from Sunbelt or other place ? At least try it for one job. When you rent, you HAVE to focus on the JOB. Toss phone into the fridge, as time IS money !!! I'd hate to think of the HOURS the new home owner next door paid for the 'framers' who were on their phones all day long.
3ph BH can destroy the rockshaft of your tractor, TLB is an awkward machine to be efficient(fast) on. Sure you get better the more you use it but by then you're wishing you had a miniex !

 

[rc51stierhoff]

That's my big concern...that I spend the time and effort to get a good used backhoe attachment+bracket for $6-7k, start using it, and figure that that it is a backhoe shaped weight and that I still need a mini excavator.

Those are for sale too(excavator)…it’s nothing to be worried over…just buy one of those as well.

 

[amschind]

I think that one important data point is walking the land with my dirt work guy and getting an idea of what a mini-ex could save me. If I can knock the initial cost difference down to negligible with one job while I'm learning the machine, it is a very easy decision. The other huge argument against is another diesel to go down (can mitigate but not eliminate this), the other huge argument for a mini-ex is having access to a loader/tractor AND an excavator at the same time.

I think that I am most afraid of having the pile of minimally used machinery that I see on a lot of places. If that means spending more at the outset, great; if it means avoiding a purchase that offers minimal convenience, that's great too. The overwhelming vote appears to be that a mini-ex offers a ton of functionality that a tractor backhoe can never replicate.

 

[amschind]

Those are for sale too(excavator)…it’s nothing to be worried over…just buy one of those as well.

One thing to consider is that I am boot-strapping a small farm from nothing. Every dollar is coming from some other purchase; I can get a backhoe sooner, but that delays the big fermenters or the house et c. I am of the opinion that every novel project will come in over budget, but aggressive management from the outset can at least keep it close.

 

[Grandad4]

You will spend the rest of your life, I think, trying to find a subframe type backhoe that directly mates up with a Westendorf loader equipped M6800, because it's an older, utility type tractor with a non- factory loader. And it sounds like you may not have the time to spend the months it would take getting some other backhoe rigged up to fit your tractor.

That would point me to a separate piece of equipment, with a mini-ex being the obvious favorite. Any number of good makes and an extensive used market, finding one should be fairly easy.

The M6800 with a functioning loader and a good-sized rear blade would make a great tag team partner to a mini-ex once the big iron has done its work.

As others indicate, dismiss the 3 point BH idea. Your work needs are in a different league entirely.

That"s just an opinion and friendly advice, based on having done a similar project several years ago. Best of luck with your project!

 

[hodge]

We bought an old, but solid- and it's still parts supported- John Deere 310 backhoe for $7000. On our land, there's quite a bit of creek bank that needs to be cleaned up (overgrowth), as well as other random uses. It has been a great purchase- for the money, it's the best option. It has decent reach (17 feet), it has muscle, and it shuttles much faster than a mini. It'll dig circles around a tractor mounted backhoe, and it's much heavier duty.
I don't know about your region, but it's pretty easy to find a decent Deere or Case backhoe- the only two I considered because of popularity and parts availabilty- reasonable prices. The one we bought was only 15 miles away, but I found lots of candidates in a 100 mile radius.

 

[PoTreeBoy]

I think that one important data point is walking the land with my dirt work guy and getting an idea of what a mini-ex could save me. If I can knock the initial cost difference down to negligible with one job while I'm learning the machine, it is a very easy decision. The other huge argument against is another diesel to go down (can mitigate but not eliminate this), the other huge argument for a mini-ex is having access to a loader/tractor AND an excavator at the same time.

I think that I am most afraid of having the pile of minimally used machinery that I see on a lot of places. If that means spending more at the outset, great; if it means avoiding a purchase that offers minimal convenience, that's great too. The overwhelming vote appears to be that a mini-ex offers a ton of functionality that a tractor backhoe can never replicate.

For you, an excavator is probably right. You already have a loader to move dirt. It's probably futile to find a backhoe to fit your tractor, which is not optimum anyway. To me, the big downside to an excavator is traveling. If your projects are in a small area, which it sounds like yours are, that's not an issue.

As your active projects change, you can change your equipment lineup, you just have to be deliberate about it. My ex-BIL bought some property, bought a used dozer and kept it for about a year to clear pasture and a house lot, then sold it. His only real expense was fuel and maintenance. Bought a used zero turn, used tractor and brush cutter to keep things mowed.

Edit: Oh, and rocks, big roots and 3 pt backhoe should never be used in the same sentence.

 

[Smokeydog]

Bought a Ford 4500 backhoe for $4500, used 20years and sold for $4500. Big game changer on the farm. Now use Kubota M59 and B26 TLBs. Have to constantly reach and swing backhoe for balance when driving on our hillside farm. Many 3pt backhoe can’t reach controls so they are dangerous. Use in 3pt mode 80-90% of the time. TLBs are built tougher, better FEL than ag tractors. I’ll have big excavation done by experienced people with big high$$ equipment that works fast. Clean up and maintain with the TLBs.

 

[amschind]

For you, an excavator is probably right. You already have a loader to move dirt. It's probably futile to find a backhoe to fit your tractor, which is not optimum anyway. To me, the big downside to an excavator is traveling. If your projects are in a small area, which it sounds like yours are, that's not an issue.

As your active projects change, you can change your equipment lineup, you just have to be deliberate about it. My ex-BIL bought some property, bought a used dozer and kept it for about a year to clear pasture and a house lot, then sold it. His only real expense was fuel and maintenance. Bought a used zero turn, used tractor and brush cutter to keep things mowed.

Edit: Oh, and rocks, big roots and 3 pt backhoe should never be used in the same sentence.

The excavator will hopefully get towed around a bit to help friends and neighbors, but generally will live on my land. It's 133 acres, but there are basically 2 11 acre areas that are flat enough to safely use equipment and have dirt suitable for growing anything more than skinny pine trees and greenbriar. There is another hillside that I would like to have as a pecan orchard, maybe 5-6 acres total, but I'm not going to put a tractor on that slope.

 

[mcmxi]

Bought a Ford 4500 backhoe for $4500, used 20years and sold for $4500. Big game changer on the farm. Now use Kubota M59 and B26 TLBs. Have to constantly reach and swing backhoe for balance when driving on our hillside farm. Many 3pt backhoe can’t reach controls so they are dangerous. Use in 3pt mode 80-90% of the time. TLBs are built tougher, better FEL than ag tractors. I’ll have big excavation done by experienced people with big high$$ equipment that works fast. Clean up and maintain with the TLBs.

I really don't understand the rationale behind the L47 and M62 (and earlier equivalents) TLBs for most home owners. If you're using it all day, every day, or for a business where it gets a lot of use it makes sense. But for a few hours a year, why pay the premium when you can buy something cheaper that will do the same job. Most homeowners don't need the duty cycle of a commercial grade TLB, just like hobby welders don't need a commercial grade welding machine that's capable of running 8 to 10 hours a day at 100% output.

 

[amschind]

I really don't understand the rationale behind the L47 and M62 (and earlier equivalents) TLBs for most home owners. If you're using it all day, every day, or for a business where it gets a lot of use it makes sense. But for a few hours a year, why pay the premium when you can buy something cheaper that will do the same job. Most homeowners don't need the duty cycle of a commercial grade TLB, just like hobby welders don't need a commercial grade welding machine that's capable of running 8 to 10 hours a day at 100% output.

To be fair, I think everything comes down to cost, however you measure that (money, time, hassle et c). I would not turn down a new 125 HP JD with a lifetime no questions asked warranty where JD flew folks out whenever I had a problem IF it cost $20k, nor would I turn down a big TLB if someone were similarly giving it away.

In more practical terms, I was looking on Facebook Marketplace (which is oddly amazing for ag equipment.....boggles the mind), I found a KX121 with a blown head gasket (it is never JUST a blown head gasket....the head gasket blew for a reason) and realized that V2203s are not terribly expensive. I'm going to seriously consider that as an option, particularly now that I have a giant hydraulic "engine stand".

 

[madplanter]

ex hands down if your going to be digging for hours. I have a loader backhoe but I wouldn't want to dig a longer trench or anything with it; Spend all your time moving the tractor; Plus a full swivel when it comes to moving the spoil would be worth it.

 

[Smokeydog]

Finding best equipment is a challenge. Buying my TLBs years ago they were cheaper and have appreciated in value since. Wife and I are the work force, so anything that help us not to have to hire labor a major consideration. Even with TLBs versatility, they are modified to meet our needs. Have miles of underground utilities to maintain with several buildings and houses. The B26 is hard to beat in tight places and landscaping.

Be fun to play with excavator. Moving yards within its swing quickly a real advantage. M59 backhoe shares quick attach buckets and attachments with many of the Kubota mini KX-40, 121, etc. Made an adapter to use the KX-ripper tooth on the B26.