Tree work and pulling advice - rope or chain recommendations?

[bbxlr8]

Hi all - Think this is the right section for this... I need recommendations for pulling with the Kubota.

I do a lot of tree work on my own property only and do everything except climb. I have the gamut of saws, rope puller, come-along and PPE. Have experience in taking down some pretty big trees, hung ones, against the lean, 20 blown down & tangled after Sandy etc.

I had an unusual situation with a problem tree yesterday & got it on the ground safely, but not without some issues. Midway, I decided to use the L2501 (why not right...?) and promptly busted the rope. I have previously used my small tractor, mostly my jeep and occasionally my big truck without breaking this same size line (have several sections).

FWIW The rope is rigging line- 3 strand & rated to 5,700 lbs, so light duty in the grand scheme of things. And I threaded it under the BH and attached it to the drawbar hitch point

SO, What do you all use or recommend where you need length for pulling?
Yes! It is a matter of safety, but I need some practicality when it comes to cost.

Options I am aware of:

1. I needed about 100' to get clear and this is way more than my current chain .
2. Recovery pull strap is only 30'
3. Heavier bull rope?
4. I see newer winches and off-roaders are using synthetic line, but that gets really pricy.
5. Maybe cable, but that is a good way to get hurt fast when something lets go.

Thanks in advance!

 

[DaveFromMi]

I use a 30' tow strap rated at 15,000 lb whenever I can. If a longer length is needed, I have about 100' of log chain. I prefer the the lighter tow strap.

 

[bcp]

I have a 30ft tow strap for each vehicle, and a couple in the tractor shed. Also I use several 3/8 cables and several blocks. A BX won't overstress any of it.

Bruce

 

[NCL4701]

Short version: In my opinion and experience, figure up the total curb weight (not bare weight) of your tractor with absolutely everything on it you’d have on it when pulling. Size your rigging at 110% of the weight of the tractor. No, it won’t pull that much but that gives you a safety factor.

Long version:
Long story but I’ll try to shorten it by just saying we busted several pieces of our rigging underestimating the drawbar capacity of the L4701 compared to the Farmall H and 9N Ford it effectively retired. After breaking one thing too many to keep blaming it on “well that must have been stress fractured at some point”, we stopped the “no way it will break that” thinking and made a reasoned reassessment of everything we had based on what all had been broken, tractor weight, etc., and replaced the stuff that wasn’t rated sufficiently.

• The 120’ 20k work strength bull rope is still used but not as much as it used to be as it’s too fat to use with our snatch blocks. (We used to use a 100’ rope until we cut a 90’ tree that turned out to be 110’ when the top landed on the 9N many years ago.)
• Our main addition was a 100’ 11k working load synthetic winch line extension. It’s small enough diameter to use with the snatch blocks. It also has eyeleted loops on the ends which is nice for hooking to shackles rather than tying knots. It was also relatively cost effective.
• A couple of 25’ 3/8” Grade 70 chains are used for non-multiplied drawbar pulls to hook to the tractor and/or tree.
• A pair of Tree Saver straps for setting anchor points for snatch blocks on trees that are staying which we don’t want to damage.
• A couple of 6’ 1/2” Grade 70 chains for snatch block doubled pulls (for the line section past the snatch block).
• Several snatch blocks, straight shackles, and twisted shackles.​
• The snatch blocks were all a bit unpolished when we got them which would be fine for wire rope. After damaging the jacket on a rope several years ago, we now disassemble, clean, deburr, break sharp corners, grease, and reassemble before putting them into service.​

I don’t know what the max drawbar force on your L2501 is. I don’t know what it is on mine either. I know we figured max drawbar around 3K lb before using it in max pull situations. We were repetitively breaking chains (1/4” Grade 30) with 5200lb break strength ratings. Broke a 7k lb rated rope twice back to back. Also broke an alleged 9K rope but IMO that was partly because it was a Chinese POS. Figured the ropes might be aging out but clearly if the conditions were right (and that might be downhill on hard clay where it just really hooks up) max drawbar on the 4701 is well over 3,000lb. For a safety factor, figured max pull at about 110% of tractor weight which put it at about 6600lb, a figure which I believe is unrealistically high enough to include a safety factor. And we figured everything based on working load, not on ultimate break strength. I honestly don’t know where all the new stuff came from or precise costs other than about $500 of new stuff. My Dad was a mechanical engineer with an ag concentration, he’s 85 and not able to do heavy work these days, and it was a fun project for him to spec and source it all so he did all that.

The initial problem was I was stupidly thinking I had a 3200lb +/- tractor so it might pull 2500lb on its best day in ideal conditions. Nope. I was just looking at bare weight. Add for loader, a grapple that’s heavier than the bucket, loaded rears, box scrape, my fat butt in the seat, etc. and it’s more like 6k. And I know R4’s won’t pull a greasy string out of… somewhere, but apparently nobody notified the 5200lb break strength chains it kept breaking.

All that to say, realistically in 4WD low range pulling on dirt as hard as asphalt around 80% to 90% of the tractor’s weight is the most you could hope to get out of it assuming you run out of traction before you run out of torque. Usually less than that due to shear strength of the soil it’s on. If you figure your rigging based on max drawbar of 110% of the max curb weight of your tractor in whatever the heaviest configuration would be when pulling, then size your rigging accordingly, I suspect you’ll quit busting your rigging.

Edit: BTW, we already had a bunch of the stuff listed. The $500 was just new stuff. Had to upgrade to pull a rather stout pine out of the pond.

Two 10k tree saver straps holding a 10k kg shackle holding a snatch block to redirect line pull and the fixed end of the line. 1/2” chain on the tree and snatch block doubling line pull force on the 1/2” chain.

Winch line extension shackled to a 3/8” grade 70 chain hooked to the drawbar via another shackle. The chain keeps the winch line clear of all the potentially damaging metal at the back of the tractor.

The problem. Not only is it a decent size tree but the limbs are also driven pretty deep into the muddy pond bottom. It came out and none of the rigging broke.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I use steel rigging cable, it's the strongest and with the proper use the safest in my opinion.

 

[Motion]

You can never have too much rigging! Inspect and keep everything in good working order. Use what's appropriate for the task at hand.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

I don't PULL the tree down, I gently GUIDE it down...
I've used 1/2" yellow poly rope for decades. I lasso the tree high 20+', using small rope, pull bigger one around ,then pull through the eye. tie the free end to back of tractor and go 'far,far away'. If alone, put 'fair' amount of tension on rope and park tractor. go back to tree and make the 3 cuts.
never lost a rope, and tree comes down where I want it to.

hmm, kinda read the post wrong, you're hauling log out of the bush not toppling the tree..
must be a special tree to want to winch it out 100' before you can 'snag and drag' on the tractor.
the big issue will be having the 'nose' of the log diving into the ground as you haul it out.
My question is why not cut a path to it ?

 

[woodsy]

1/4 "Aircraft cable for long pulls. Rated at 5K lbs i think.
Slip hooks on each end attached with 2-3 cable clamps each end.
Got a couple different lengths of these.
Lightweight cable, east to coil. try no to kink it with the slip hook ends , use a chain with a slip hook or sling to tie in to it.
Use chains w/slip hook on one end to hook trees or logs to tractor for
twitching them out of the woods.
When trees need pulling to fall in a certain direction a 4 ton come-along
with chains or slings and cable are put to use. Probably have 100' total
cable/chains to work with. Nothing taller than that here.

 

[bbxlr8]

Thank you all very much for the quick replies - especially @NCL4701 for the detail. It is very helpful and I KNEW others were doing this but did not see much on this in a search as this is a specific need

I was thinking more about what I didn't say in my OP.

1. I try NOT to pull the trees with power and it is my last "go-to" assurance in addition to trying off. This tree was a very unusual break and dangerous, thus out of my comfort zone. I solicited advice on arboristsite (where there are also a lot of seasoned pros!) and there was no clear-cut way (pun intended) to approach it. Two real nice cherries next to a campsite area. wanted to save the bigger one it was hung up in. It was not my proudest moment, as I made it much more dangerous as it folded over about 6 feet up and then hung up at 45 deg from that in ANOTHER tree about 30' downhill. It is about about 75' tall (prob more) and carries a deceiving amount of weight up high (see pics)
2. The previous break on this type of line (and I have up to 200' sections) was about 10 years ago via my jeep (fat tires & 4WD low) on a tree that broke and impaled itself into a wet swampy area.
3. Also, in those rare cases where I use a power vehicle, it is for the extra oomph or safety factor with obstacles AND just to get it over on a standard cut. Meaning, I attach up high in addition to the rope puller tension and usually another tie-off. It has the right balance of size, rating & stretch as you approach the breaking point.
4. My L2501 as it sits with R14s was very surprising. I truly expected to pop it over with "no muss, no fuss" the first pull and eased into the tension.
5. You learn very fast that it is NOT just about power, rather weight and traction, thus the rare instance I use the 7K truck.

I have one well-loved tree saver strap - I need to buck up and get at least one more plus snatch blocks.
I am going to take a hard look at the synthetic options and knew those were great but my gut said $$$
Probably need to add some longer chain also.

Really appreciate any other experiences as this is great info that is not discussed often!

 

[bbxlr8]

@NCL4701 Any idea how thick this rope is? THX

• The 120’ 20k work strength bull rope is still used but not as much as it used to be as it’s too fat to use with our snatch blocks. (We used to use a 100’ rope until we cut a 90’ tree that turned out to be 110’ when the top landed on the 9N many years ago.)

 

[Henro]

I use steel rigging cable, it's the strongest and with the proper use the safest in my opinion.

I like the "with proper use" limitation! I agree, but I always take the worst case into consideration.

Cables and straps, probably ropes too, stretch before breaking. When they break, the stored energy is released and each half will of the cable/strap will shoot in the direction of pull, or opposite to that direction.

I have read that chains are safer if there is a failure and the chain breaks, but this is just something I have come to believe and have no real proof of it. I think it is because each link stretches individually, and somehow this limits the amount the chain wants to propel itself, if it breaks.

Anyway, It is nearly always chain for me. Have read about guys using straps to try to pull out stuck 4x4s, and having a broken strap spring back through the rear window of their pickup cabs...maybe out through the windshield as well. Not sure about the windshield though.

 

[bbxlr8]

In the off-road communities, it is recommended that you place something over the line closer to the vehicles to prevent that. They actually make products for that (of course they do...) but any extra line, an old moving blanket etc. can act as a dampener. The more mass or give the better.

It is the damage factor, but really safety which is why I have never used cable to-date as it literally could cut you or any errant bystander in half.

 

[NCL4701]

@NCL4701 Any idea how thick this rope is? THX

• The 120’ 20k work strength bull rope is still used but not as much as it used to be as it’s too fat to use with our snatch blocks. (We used to use a 100’ rope until we cut a 90’ tree that turned out to be 110’ when the top landed on the 9N many years ago.)

7/8”

 

[Freeheeler]

I use a tow strap attached to the tree, usually 20 or so feet up. This gets connected to the winch on the jeep which has a spectra line. The synthetic spectra doesn't rebound if it breaks so no need to weights or mats on the line for protection. The jeep is usually way off to the side pulling thru a pulley directing the line to the tree in line with where I want it to fall. All of this is just a secondary safety in case something weird happens. The tree almost always falls where planned based on weight, lean, gravity, and the way you make your cuts. The winch is way to slow to affect the direction of fall once the tree starts moving. Driving the jeep in reverse quickly can actually affect the fall line when needed. If you do something silly, always make sure your friends are filming

 

[Captain13]

I use Sterling Atlas 5/8 rigging line. Very little stretch but limber enough to tie knots easily. 19,000 lb breaking strength and very easy to work with. I can use it in my 5:1mechanical advantage pulleys one of which has progress capture. I set up the pulley’s, anchor to the tree and a stump or other adequate anchor point and pull by hand or with the tractor. I put line thimbles on the ends when needed and hook up with heavy carabiners or shackles to avoid over-stressing the line at connection points. I use snatch blocks when I need to redirect a line.

Putting the mechanical advantage together (two double sheave pulleys) is probably one of the best investments I’ve made for falling trees in tight places And giving me the right amount of tension.

 

[bbxlr8]

I use a tow strap attached to the tree, usually 20 or so feet up. This gets connected to the winch on the jeep which has a spectra line. The synthetic spectra doesn't rebound if it breaks so no need to weights or mats on the line for protection. The jeep is usually way off to the side pulling thru a pulley directing the line to the tree in line with where I want it to fall. All of this is just a secondary safety in case something weird happens. The tree almost always falls where planned based on weight, lean, gravity, and the way you make your cuts. The winch is way to slow to affect the direction of fall once the tree starts moving. Driving the jeep in reverse quickly can actually affect the fall line when needed. If you do something silly, always make sure your friends are filming

Been putting it off for a while, but a winch for the jeep is on the shortlist.

I had a bad lean on one that I needed to take out on the slope above & toward my tractor shed. I had tension via a line/puller and another static line tied off & one on the jeep & my wife at the helm in the middle of the woods, backing uphill in 4wd low. Gave her the signal and timed it just right. She is very capable but to say that she did not like it is a SERIOUS understatement and there is a firm "no way in h#ll / never again" rule now! Oh, and the jeep is a manual trans...

I occasionally have someone film but is my goal to keep out of those epic fail highlight reels

 

[bbxlr8]

7/8”

Thanks - having a decent section of heavier rope would be a good plan as well

 

[Captain13]

Just a tip if you are using rope under high tension…. When you are rigged up , either get a real line dampener or get a pair of ankle weights and put them around the the line on the end that will be coming at you if a line fails. The dampener will push the line to the ground instead of the line being a bull whip coming at you. Should be part of every rigging kit.

 

[michigander]

I just picked up a Notch big shot slingshot and weaver rope/weight bag for getting 3/4 bull rope up in tree.

Rope is 150 feet long from Amazon "Blue ox rope"

Should be trying it out Saturday if no snow and rain.

 

[rc51stierhoff]

I

Hi all - Think this is the right section for this... I need recommendations for pulling with the Kubota.

I do a lot of tree work on my own property only and do everything except climb. I have the gamut of saws, rope puller, come-along and PPE. Have experience in taking down some pretty big trees, hung ones, against the lean, 20 blown down & tangled after Sandy etc.

I had an unusual situation with a problem tree yesterday & got it on the ground safely, but not without some issues. Midway, I decided to use the L2501 (why not right...?) and promptly busted the rope. I have previously used my small tractor, mostly my jeep and occasionally my big truck without breaking this same size line (have several sections).

FWIW The rope is rigging line- 3 strand & rated to 5,700 lbs, so light duty in the grand scheme of things. And I threaded it under the BH and attached it to the drawbar hitch point

SO, What do you all use or recommend where you need length for pulling?
Yes! It is a matter of safety, but I need some practicality when it comes to cost.

Options I am aware of:

1. I needed about 100' to get clear and this is way more than my current chain .
2. Recovery pull strap is only 30'
3. Heavier bull rope?
4. I see newer winches and off-roaders are using synthetic line, but that gets really pricy.
5. Maybe cable, but that is a good way to get hurt fast when something lets go.

Thanks in advance!

I am not sure what is right…I generally have 2 considerations. 1. What do I current have access to (limited to what I own or what a friend has). 2. Risk: What happens in the event of a failure (think lock out / hazardous energy). Number 2 is most important to me. If tree in air I use a synthetic line…I have 12.5k superwinch in a cradle that can be used in any 2 inch receiver. PrimRy purpose is 4 wheeling but I do use occasionally on trees. It works great and I try to use as many pulleys as I can. I have an extension line of synthetic as well. The set up works great for me. However if not careful a tree can drag a vehicle. So think about that. Need to be anchored but that also puts stress / energy on the hitch and frame of vehicle….be aware. If on the ground I would use a chain or cable. Simply a matter of not wanting to get my line muddy / wet etc. I’ve never snapped a synthetic line but they are claimed not to hold energy so in theory should not snap back at a person. However if it snaps there will be a release of energy on the vehicle and tree. The energy has to go somewhere. But the line should not sling at me. I am familiar with very familiar with rigging / hoisting and to me I’d be more comfortable with steel line however it will slingshot if snapped. So I think be aware of that. If you are pricing either I’d recommend you think of price of heavier line or cable vs trip to hospital. If not sure about the pull / winch set up….walk away. If one person is putting tension on line, and one is making the back cut, it helps to have a third person watching and directing traffic so to speak. All need to be in agreement on communication. Hands signals are best with engine or saw running and space between. If everyone not sure walk away.