To store empty or topped up?

[Runs With Scissors]

@GeoHorn re fuel for pontoon boat

I stopped using fuel with ethanol in it for small engines that sit with fuel due to similar problems you experienced. There are land based fuel stations (Murphy’s (Walmart) and QT (QuikTime?) both have some pumps that dispense 100% petroleum based fuel, which has remedied my problems on those small engines.

I don’t know if you could find that fuel at a marina, or be able to afford it if they had it! It is a bit more expensive than E10 fuel but not much.

+1 on that….

The only thing that gets ethanol gas is the wifes van.

Other than that, everythng gets Rec gas…(thats what they call it here)

But it is a buck a gallon more.

 

[McMXi]

I consider you lucky, I'm envious.
In Minnesota its everywhere and up to blends of 50% I see!
The Cenex station in its cardlock area for Farmers has 4 different blends just for dyed / off road users alone.

We have four options up here.

 

[McMXi]

+1 on that….

The only thing that gets ethanol gas is the wifes van.

Other than that, everythng gets Rec gas…(thats what they call it here)

But it is a buck a gallon more.

I only use ethanol free gas in my boat too since Yamaha recommends it but doesn't require it. The V6 can run on 87 min octane with max 10% ethanol, but even though 70 gallons of the good stuff is kind of pricey, it's worth it to me given the cost of the engine.

I put 87 ocatane crap into the Jeep since it doesn't care, but only run ethanol free in all tools, equipment etc.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

We have four options up here.

View attachment 173222

OMG another fake Photo of diesel pumps!
Or was that a photo of the 1970's fuel prices.

 

[McMXi]

OMG another fake Photo of diesel pumps!
Or was that a photo of the 1970's fuel prices.

I took that photo on April 7th, 2019. But that was the cost of diesel up here until recently too.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I took that photo on April 7th, 2019. But that was the cost of diesel up here until recently too.

You do know I'm just poking fun at the older photos that have reasonable fuel prices on them.

 

[McMXi]

You do know I'm just poking fun at the older photos that have reasonable fuel prices on them.

Of course!

I'm still using the fuel that I bought from Costco for $3/gallon. I'm hoping that it'll last long enough that I don't have to fill up for $5/gallon when I drive over to Moore, MT to pick up the rear bumper for the F-450 in about a month.

When I delivered the L47 to my friend in Kettle Falls, WA I reminded him that he was getting almost 18 gallons of diesel from the local dealer which would cost him over $100 in WA.

 

[McMXi]

That chart would be a one-time event. Multiply that by ten or twenty times …a couple weeks worth of an empty tank exchanging humid air….and the amount of water might be surprising.
(Coastal regions probably more susceptible than Az or NM.)

Air flow requires either a pressure differential or convection. Convection is essentially non-existent in this case, therefore a pressure differential is the only option. Looking at the correction factors for normal air as a function of temperature, combined with the design of fuel storage tanks, or fuel tanks in vehicles, the evidence that condensation from moisture in air is a problem in fuel storage tanks is anecdotal.

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

We have four options up here.

View attachment 173222

nice clear pick.

brings up another thought that many claim dyed diesel is exactly the same as un-dyed diesel.

how can that be.... is the dyed nozzle pumping out:

- pure petro diesel just red
- #1, #2 or combination just red
- bio added at 5%, 10% , 20%, 50% or 100% just red

who knows what dyed diesel is unless they tell us but could be any of the 10 options I see above so maybe same as 1 option but surely not the same as all options available.

cheers


ps: whats more divisive.... oil threads or diesel threads?

 

[JimDeL]

I'm calling BS to your pictures!!!

Only because there is no place I know that diesel is that cheap right now!

Definitely an old picture - probably from last month.

 

[GeoHorn]

Air flow requires either a pressure differential or convection. Convection is essentially non-existent in this case, therefore a pressure differential is the only option. Looking at the correction factors for normal air as a function of temperature, combined with the design of fuel storage tanks, or fuel tanks in vehicles, the evidence that condensation from moisture in air is a problem in fuel storage tanks is anecdotal.

Perhaps you are overlooking that, in many areas, the difference between nighttime temps and daytime peaks are commonly 30-50 degrees, which causes a percentage of the ullage to leave the tank in daytime…then return at night, bringing a new load of moisture with it each cycle….to condense in those nighttime cool-downs.

It’s not fantasy. It’s real. It’s just more prevalent in certain climes than others.

 

[Hugo Habicht]

I don't follow any kind of diesel storage regimen in terms of the volume of fuel in the tank and have never done that over decades of owning diesel powered equipment and never had any issues.

If you look at how much water can be supported (suspended) in saturated air in an empty 10 gallon tank with the air at the temperatures listed below you can see that it's not very much. Even if the temperature of the air in the tank were to suddenly drop from 122°F to -13°F there would only be 0.1 oz of water condensing. The math and physics simply don't support the theory that the air in the tank is a significant source of water. If there's significant condensation being generated you can bet it's coming from the fuel and not air in the tank.

-13°F > .0009 oz
5°F > .0021 oz
32°F > .0066 oz
59°F > .0171 oz
86°F > .0406 oz
122°F > .1112 oz

You got that wrong. With an empty tank, every time the air pressure or temperature changes, new humid air can get into the tank (called "breathing") and condensate at night. The water is getting in from the moisture in the air.

The dew in the morning is a clear indication that water fell out in the tank over night.

 

[McMXi]

You got that wrong. With an empty tank, every time the air pressure or temperature changes, new humid air can get into the tank (called "breathing") and condensate at night. The water is getting in from the moisture in the air.

The dew in the morning is a clear indication that water fell out in the tank over night.

I don't agree and I think it's just another example of assumptions made without any actual data or thought, and plenty of incorrect correlations being made. Look at the allowable water content of commercial diesel and you might be surprised.

I'll continue to not care how much fuel is in the tanks of my tractors, or my vehicles or my fuel storage tanks and continue to have zero issues over the next few decades just like the last three.

 

[McMXi]

You got that wrong.

So here's a thought. Put an empty 100 gallon tank outside and then let me know when it's full of water, since according to you it should fill up right? What a great way to collect water. Who needs to collect rain water, or build a reservoir when all you need are a few empty 100 gallon tanks around the property.

 

[Russell King]

OMG another fake Photo of diesel pumps!
Or was that a photo of the 1970's fuel prices.

I can remember when the pumps could not charge more than 99.9 cents per gallon. Then when gas went up above $1.00 per gallon they had to adapt. Some places started charging by the LITER since USA was going to metric. Others replaced pump parts and painted a ”1.” in front of the cents or cut an opening in the face to show the dollar‘s place.

 

[Blue2Orange]

No option for biodiesel up here. Would still stick with petro diesel. For warm season months I try to keep the tank full. Limited use during the warmer months. IIRC, the BX only has a 6.6gal tank. It seem to have relatively good hrs/gallon. But I prefer not to run it with less than 1/2 tank according to the gauge when on level ground.

Using a Mr Funnel type of funnel for the past +25 years and never have had a water or particulate issue.

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

hmmm.... I thought thought bio-diesel was common. Seems very localized.

for those that are not getting bio diesel pushed down your throats feel blessed.
Diesel mushrooms / green snot of death / etc... has become one of the very first maintenance / breakdown concerns our peer group is seeing on engines that burn say less than a tank of fuel a month or so.



B20 and above stations

 

[imarobot]

We have four options up here.

View attachment 173222

I haven't seen there options here only on-road or off-road. I know Red Dyed is off road, but what is #1, #2 and 50/50?

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

I haven't seen there options here only on-road or off-road. I know Red Dyed is off road, but what is #1, #2 and 50/50?

50/50 is 1/2 #1 and 1/2 #2

#1 is a thinner diesel most suitable for winter use, has a colder pour point before it gels up
#2 is a summer diesel which carries more energy per gallon and suitable for summer use. refiner not concerned with gelling as not meant for cold weather use.

 

[McMXi]

Here's an interesting bit of information.

Diesel fuel sold commercially must comply with ASTM D975-Diesel Fuel Specification. It allows a water content of no more than 0.05% by volume. If you do the math, that's .065 ounces of water per gallon, so 10 gallons of diesel can contain up to 0.64 ounces of water. An empty 10 gallon tank full of saturated air at 50°F can only hold .013 ounces of water, so the fuel in a full 10 gallon tank can contain 50 times the amount of water that the saturated air in an empty tank can hold.

Here's another thing that's not intuitive. Saturated air is less dense than dry air.

At the end of the day, checking the water separator on your truck or tractor on a regular basis is the way to avoid issues, along with changing the fuel filter(s) according to the manufacturer's specifications and I'm a fan of diesel fuel additives to help with lubricity, corrosion mitigation, cetane, etc. My F-250 has an additional RACOR water seperator/fuel filter near the fuel tank which my friend installed when he owned the truck. The M-1078 with the Caterpillar engine had one from the factory before the secondary fuel filter. I took this photo when I changed out the filter using one of the extras that I have for the F-250.