To store empty or topped up?

[MapleLeafFarmer]

The old farmers club meets at sunrise daily over pie and coffee at the local diner. Today's argument was whether to store our INFREQUENTLY used diesels with tanks full or empty?

When diesel was 100% petroleum based we all agreed we stored full with the idea of seasonally appropriate in the back of our mind. No one seemed to worried about bio-contamination, diesel mushrooms in our tanks, the green snot of death in our filters, etc...

However today i would say about 50/50 on whether to store empty or full. kinda got heated with no clear winner. All at the table have farmed for over say 50 years and all get fuel delivered bulk.

The full side argued it helps keep moisture out.
The store empty side argued harder to keep seasonally appropriate, given bio-diesel can go bad in as short as 14 days says some stuff on internet (more like 2 months OK IMHO) depending on humidity level of surrounding area it keeps fuel fresher as it doesn't sit as long with fresh added before each run, that most of us store inside sheds, etc...

So half argued store full, other half argued store as empty as possible. All agreed microbial limiting additives have become the norm. Regardless.


What say you?

 

[Dustball]

I don't use biodiesel but I'm in the camp of keep the fuel tanks as full as possible to minimize exposed surface area in the tank for condensation to form on. I'm in a climate of temperature extremes so the constant warming and cooling can generate quite a bit of condensation.

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

I don't use biodiesel but I'm in the camp of keep the fuel tanks as full as possible to minimize exposed surface area in the tank for condensation to form on. I'm in a climate of temperature extremes so the constant warming and cooling can generate quite a bit of condensation.

lucky!
I can order non renewable off road but pull up to pumps at our local Cenex look like this.

 

[chim]

The Kubota is generally full. In my case it's more because the tractor can be pressed into service when needed and can finish almost any work without needing to refuel during the process. The Ford is used much less and gets filled as needed.

The stored fuel gets both biociode and antigel and it passes through a Goldenrod waterblock filter when dispensed. In theory if there would be a concern about condensation, the tractor's tank would be kept full. I'd think the quantity of condensation depends on how much the tank breathes in and out rather than just the surface area. Any condensation that collects in the storage tank should be caught by the filter as it is dispensed.

 

[bobnic]

I would never use biodiesel. I always try to store with tank full of petro diesel to minimize condensation.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

lucky!
I can order non renewable off road but pull up to pumps at our local Cenex look like this.

View attachment 173202
View attachment 173204

I'm calling BS to your pictures!!!

Only because there is no place I know that diesel is that cheap right now!

 

[jyoutz]

I have never seen bio-diesel for sale in my area.

 

[GeoHorn]

I have 3 diesel machines: M4700 Kubota tractor, X900 Kubota RTV, and a JD 4239-powered Ferguson compactor.
I have a 160 gal steel propane tank converted to a storage tank in which I store ordinary diesel (last purchased from WalMart but which previously had off-road dyed-diesel…which I presume was pertroleum-No 2 but don’t know for certainty) …all of which I treat with Biobor-JF as I fill the storage tank.

My storage tank goes from 1 to 2 years before I refill it. All fuel coming out of the steel tank passes thru a Goldenrod water-block filter as it goes into my equipment. All my equipment has on-board filters which I maintain iAW (In Accordance With) recommendations.

Every 6 months I “recirculate” the fuel within the storage-tank …. because I believe that’s good practice (mil-training).

I have had zero problems with this routine despite the fuel sometimes being as much as 2 yrs old.

I store all equipment, gasoline OR diesel, as full as practical because I believe that the less air in the tank reduces the amount of daily atmospheric air-exchange as the day heats up and the night cools down…. affecting expansion/contraction of the Ullage. (Ullage is the air above the fuel inside the tank.)
(This is what we were taught in flight-training as well, as it applies to how to store airplanes.)

HOWEVER: GASoline is different: a personal sad-story reflection: My pontoon boat has two tanks and the Stabil*-treated E10 gasoline stored FULL…. degraded when I couldn’t use the boat last year due to drought conditions of our local lakes. This means I now have 50-gallons of 2 yr old gasoline I had to siphon-out….. I can’t use for anything but solvent ….or to dilute with fresh gasoline for use in garden tillers, lawn-mowers, etc.

*I’ve decided that green Marine-Stabil fuel-preservative is useless. That “Stabilized” fuel ruined expensive fuel-injectors I had to replace in my low-130-hours Yamaha F150 outboard. I tried running it and it ran like krud due to the stale-gas which damaged injectors.

For generators, log-splitter, and lawn equipt, etc which have “planned long-storage”…I use avgas for it’s long-storage life, ..never mogas/auto-gas. But Avgas has lead in it and cannot be run in outboards or catalytic or emissions-equipped spark-ign engines.

 

[McMXi]

I always try to store with tank full of petro diesel to minimize condensation.

I don't follow any kind of diesel storage regimen in terms of the volume of fuel in the tank and have never done that over decades of owning diesel powered equipment and never had any issues.

If you look at how much water can be supported (suspended) in saturated air in an empty 10 gallon tank with the air at the temperatures listed below you can see that it's not very much. Even if the temperature of the air in the tank were to suddenly drop from 122°F to -13°F there would only be 0.1 oz of water condensing. The math and physics simply don't support the theory that the air in the tank is a significant source of water. If there's significant condensation being generated you can bet it's coming from the fuel and not air in the tank.

-13°F > .0009 oz
5°F > .0021 oz
32°F > .0066 oz
59°F > .0171 oz
86°F > .0406 oz
122°F > .1112 oz

 

[McMXi]

I have never seen bio-diesel for sale in my area.

I've not seen it here either. When I drove over to Illinois last May I saw it at the pumps in Bettendorf, Iowa just over the river. It was a B20 blend and Iowa is supposedly the top biodiesel-producing state (volume produced). I did fill up at one of the stations selling B20.

 

[GeoHorn]

I don't follow any kind of diesel storage regimen in terms of the volume of fuel in the tank and have never done that over decades of owning diesel powered equipment and never had any issues.

If you look at how much water can be supported (suspended) in saturated air in an empty 10 gallon tank with the air at the temperatures listed below you can see that it's not very much. Even if the temperature of the air in the tank were to suddenly drop from 122°F to -13°F there would only be 0.1 oz of water condensing. The math and physics simply don't support the theory that the air in the tank is a significant source of water. If there's significant condensation being generated you can bet it's coming from the fuel and not air in the tank.

-13°F > .0009 oz
5°F > .0021 oz
32°F > .0066 oz
59°F > .0171 oz
86°F > .0406 oz
122°F > .1112 oz

That chart would be a one-time event. Multiply that by ten or twenty times …a couple weeks worth of an empty tank exchanging humid air….and the amount of water might be surprising.
(Coastal regions probably more susceptible than Az or NM.)

I don’t believe the 14 days to 2 months will make bio-diesel “go bad” as the #1 post suggested….but it will gather water in a humid environment and that’d be bad for diesel injectors.
Diesel fuel is a lot less susceptible than gasoline, especially E10 of course….. but in some climates it will still add up.

 

[Hugo Habicht]

Longer non-use is always full to minimise tank breathing and hence moisture getting in. This is independet of fuel type and treatment.

 

[Runs With Scissors]

I try to keep all of my machines topped up, both gas and diesel.

In my area, at least where I fill up, I don’t recall seeing any “bio-diesel” options at the pump.

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

I don’t believe the 14 days to 2 months will make bio-diesel “go bad” as the #1 post suggested….but it will gather water in a humid environment and that’d be bad for diesel injectors.
Diesel fuel is a lot less susceptible than gasoline, especially E10 of course….. but in some climates it will still add up.

you might be correct about the 2 weeks. I can only parrot what Ag. Offices / US Gov't / and the Federal National Institute of Health publishes.

I am definitely no expert and don't have the skills to argue with the US Gov't experts..

Cheers

 

[GeoHorn]

you might be correct about the 2 weeks. I can only parrot what Ag. Offices / US Gov't / and the Federal National Institute of Health publishes.

I am definitely no expert and don't have the skills to argue with the US Gov't experts..

Cheers

View attachment 173217

That post was from the “National Institutes of Health”…?? is that the one headed up by the brain-worm Host RFK, Jr.…??

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

I've not seen it here either. When I drove over to Illinois last May I saw it at the pumps in Bettendorf, Iowa just over the river. It was a B20 blend and Iowa is supposedly the top biodiesel-producing state (volume produced). I did fill up at one of the stations selling B20.

I consider you lucky, I'm envious.
In Minnesota its everywhere and up to blends of 50% I see!
The Cenex station in its cardlock area for Farmers has 4 different blends just for dyed / off road users alone.

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

That post was from the “National Institutes of Health”…?? is that the one headed up by the brain-worm Host RFK, Jr.…??

not sure who was head but was back in the the Obama and Bush eras when the push for bio diesel was in full swing. Not that recent i think.

 

[GeoHorn]

not sure who was head but was back in the the Obama and Bush eras when the push for bio diesel was in full swing. Not that recent i think.

You can’t blame Bush and Obama for bio-diesel affinity for water or bacteria…..

(I doubt Bush knows what boiled-diesel IS…)

Someday I’ll have to tell the story about how he and I first met and our subsequent relationship…involving his name, my name, and Geo Wash on a dollar bill he signed for a sick friend…..

I was one of his pilots when he was Tx Gov…. and later, trained the Marine One PIC, Maj Ron Alvarado, in this photo:

 

[Russell King]

@GeoHorn re fuel for pontoon boat

I stopped using fuel with ethanol in it for small engines that sit with fuel due to similar problems you experienced. There are land based fuel stations (Murphy’s (Walmart) and QT (QuikTime?) both have some pumps that dispense 100% petroleum based fuel, which has remedied my problems on those small engines.

I don’t know if you could find that fuel at a marina, or be able to afford it if they had it! It is a bit more expensive than E10 fuel but not much.

 

[GeoHorn]

@GeoHorn re fuel for pontoon boat

I stopped using fuel with ethanol in it for small engines that sit with fuel due to similar problems you experienced. There are land based fuel stations (Murphy’s (Walmart) and QT (QuikTime?) both have some pumps that dispense 100% petroleum based fuel, which has remedied my problems on those small engines.

I don’t know if you could find that fuel at a marina, or be able to afford it if they had it! It is a bit more expensive than E10 fuel but not much.

Thanks for that advice. The WM/Murphy’s near me doesn’t handle non-E… but another newer convenience story recently opened near Horseshoe Bay and carries it at $4.50.…. certainly worth it for a final-fill prior to long-term storage. Good idea.