Skidding winch

[North Idaho Wolfman]

My question is, at what engine rpm are tractor hydraulics rated.

At rated PTO RPM.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

how about applying a knurl to the inner diameter of the Capstan. That would really give you bite.

You obviously have never used a capstan winch, doing something like that would get the operator hurt as the rope would not be able to be released once rope is under a load!
Really bad advice!

 

[baronetm]

My tractor hydraulic system puts out 5 gpm at 2200 psi. I have researched and found a hydraulic motor for a capstan winch that will give me close to the 60 rpm I am wanting at 5 gpm flow. My question is, at what engine rpm are tractor hydraulics rated. In other words, I want the motor to run at 60 rpm when the tractor engine is at or just above idle not at or near max rpm. How do I figure this into the selection of the motor.
The motor that I found is 15.4 cu.in. motor. How do I know if this motor is sized right or if I need a smaller or bigger flow motor to get the rpm I want at or near idle.

Here is an older version of the online calculator along with some additional information that may be of use.

 

[crmorse]

Stomper: don’t be too fixed on RPMs at idle. I did the same and found that in practice I never needed more than 1/3 throttle and was still using the valve to slow things down. Unless you have a lot of long & easy pulls I don’t think it will as big of a deal as you expect.

My advice for priorities picking a motor:
1) highest side load torque available
2) high enough turning torque for your expected load
3) good rpms

I never found a way to calculate what my tractors gpm at idle was but I did find that in actual usage any time I wanted higher speed (flow) I also wanted higher power (psi) which requires tractor throttle anyway.

I don’t know if this holds for every tractor but for mine I found that planning for 1/2 rated flow worked well. I don’t think I’ve ever used full throttle but then I’ve also had the rope slipping issue as well so take that with a grain of salt.

I’ll update as soon as I can try something else. Speaking of: can anybody here recommend a known good rope to try? Obviously, not all double-braided polyester rope is created equal.

To the poster commenting earlier, minimum bend radius hasn’t been an issue. It just slipped too much. After all these discussions I’m eager to try the new capstan that should hold 8-10 loops instead of the 4 I was limited to before.




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[baronetm]

Just an idea, check Greenlee pulling ropes for pulling electrical cables, the cost will shock you. Maybe you can find their rope spec's, or find another suppliers rope that is rated for electrical pulling that is more cost effective.

You may want to look at Greenlee pulling systems for capstan ideas.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=greenlee...399647&tag=googhydr-20&ref=pd_sl_1cd1z4bz8r_e

 

[Stomper]

Yeah the greenlee stuff is expensive but if youre going to spend that kind of money you may as well just buy straight from potable winch. Their prices really arent that bad and theyre proven to work with capstan winches.

https://www.portablewinch.com/ca_en/accessories/ropes/

 

[Stomper]

Stomper: don’t be too fixed on RPMs at idle. I did the same and found that in practice I never needed more than 1/3 throttle and was still using the valve to slow things down. Unless you have a lot of long & easy pulls I don’t think it will as big of a deal as you expect.

My advice for priorities picking a motor:
1) highest side load torque available
2) high enough turning torque for your expected load
3) good rpms

I never found a way to calculate what my tractors gpm at idle was but I did find that in actual usage any time I wanted higher speed (flow) I also wanted higher power (psi) which requires tractor throttle anyway.

I don’t know if this holds for every tractor but for mine I found that planning for 1/2 rated flow worked well. I don’t think I’ve ever used full throttle but then I’ve also had the rope slipping issue as well so take that with a grain of salt.

I’ll update as soon as I can try something else. Speaking of: can anybody here recommend a known good rope to try? Obviously, not all double-braided polyester rope is created equal.

To the poster commenting earlier, minimum bend radius hasn’t been an issue. It just slipped too much. After all these discussions I’m eager to try the new capstan that should hold 8-10 loops instead of the 4 I was limited to before.




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Yeah I have a tendency to over think stuff and that complicates things.
As far as rope goes, check out the ropes from portable winch. The prices are not bad and they are proven to work
https://www.portablewinch.com/ca_en/accessories/ropes/

 

[hope to float]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gWQUeJgczc

I hope you can see the "V" pulley I was on about before in this. Once "hooked in" you don't need to touch it again. This is only play fishing. In reality, these pull the boat along the rope with no need for a driver or stopping the pulley every time you get to a pot. You will notice that the rope is falling loosely on the deck. If it gets snagged in a rock you simply lift the loose end of the rope and the pulley loses it's grip. The heavier the load this system is pulling, the better it's grip is on the rope. When we were snagged, we would lift the rope out of this and put it on the capstan because it allowed the rope to slip. I honestly can't see why you are persisting with the capstan

 

[Stomper]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gWQUeJgczc

I hope you can see the "V" pulley I was on about before in this. Once "hooked in" you don't need to touch it again. This is only play fishing. In reality, these pull the boat along the rope with no need for a driver or stopping the pulley every time you get to a pot. You will notice that the rope is falling loosely on the deck. If it gets snagged in a rock you simply lift the loose end of the rope and the pulley loses it's grip. The heavier the load this system is pulling, the better it's grip is on the rope. When we were snagged, we would lift the rope out of this and put it on the capstan because it allowed the rope to slip. I honestly can't see why you are persisting with the capstan

Simply because the capstan winch has been proven to work and works well in the application that I want. There are lots of capstan videos that prove it. I know nothing about crab pot retrieval equipment. I searched some after I saw this post but most of the ones I found are for lighter weight. It does work pretty slick but I have absolutely no idea how it would work with a thousand plus pounds on the end of it dragging through the bush.
I appreciate the idea and it may work great but its something that Has not been proven to work for log skidding, not that I have seen anyway so I am very reluctant to venture that way.

 

[skeets]

If your handy give this a look

https://youtu.be/MwzSvT3sVNA?t=210

 

[Stomper]

Electric winches have their places, but skidding logs is not it. Especially for long distances. They are extremely slow and have a small duty cycle. If they heat up they will quit and won’t work till they cool off. This can only happen a certain amount of times until they are completely burned out. Ask me how I know this!

 

[crmorse]

I don't meant to derail the OP's thread but since this electric winches have already come up in here I'm hoping Stomper won't mind...

Has anybody ever considered taking a beefy electric winch and swapping out the electric motor with a hydraulic one?

I ask for two reasons-- well three really:
1) If my 53rd attempt at my capstan winch fails I want a fallback plan

2) I have a one-time need for overhead lifting to place some steel joists in my construction project. I have a 42' telehandler onsite but it's not great at precisely lowering objects since the boom introduces a lateral movement as well. I already have 3rd function hydraulics at the end of the boom so sticking a winch onto a jib attachment would make this project a cake walk. An electric winch might work but a) I don't trust it not to let go and b) powering it 50' away from the engine would suck. 12V would require some seriously heavy gauge cable and 110v would need a massive inverter that the machine's alternator probably couldn't support anyway.

3) I suck at fabricating (as proven by my previously misaligned fairlead) so having the reduction gears and bearings and stuff already worked out would be a big start.


I looked around briefly on Craigslist and Harbor Freight and stuff but didn't see anything that seemed solid enough (and cheap enough) to be worth risking the experiment.

 

[Stomper]

I don't meant to derail the OP's thread but since this electric winches have already come up in here I'm hoping Stomper won't mind...

Has anybody ever considered taking a beefy electric winch and swapping out the electric motor with a hydraulic one?

I ask for two reasons-- well three really:
1) If my 53rd attempt at my capstan winch fails I want a fallback plan

2) I have a one-time need for overhead lifting to place some steel joists in my construction project. I have a 42' telehandler onsite but it's not great at precisely lowering objects since the boom introduces a lateral movement as well. I already have 3rd function hydraulics at the end of the boom so sticking a winch onto a jib attachment would make this project a cake walk. An electric winch might work but a) I don't trust it not to let go and b) powering it 50' away from the engine would suck. 12V would require some seriously heavy gauge cable and 110v would need a massive inverter that the machine's alternator probably couldn't support anyway.

3) I suck at fabricating (as proven by my previously misaligned fairlead) so having the reduction gears and bearings and stuff already worked out would be a big start.


I looked around briefly on Craigslist and Harbor Freight and stuff but didn't see anything that seemed solid enough (and cheap enough) to be worth risking the experiment.

No problem at all with with tossing around different ideas, im open to all suggestions and ideas. After all the title does say skidding winch.
I have thought about swapping the electric motor for a hydraulic motor for use in feeding logs into my firewood processor that I am designing. Similar to what the wallenstien processors have. I was just going to use a hydraulic motor for the winch but I didnt know how I would be able to free spool it, so thats the idea I came up with.
I think it would work good for the application you are talking about. And I dont think you were correct when you said that you suck at fabrication. You did an awesome job with the capstan winch fabrication. Thats the thing about building your own stuff with your own ideas, there is bound to be some modifications in the process. That’s the whole fun part in fabrication.

BTW I picked up that 15.4 cu.in motor for my capstan build. It has high torque at a good rpm for my tractors flow rate and pressure. Now I just need to get the capstan spool and find time to build it

 

[crmorse]

I was just going to use a hydraulic motor for the winch but I didnt know how I would be able to free spool it, so thats the idea I came up with.

That's a good point. I hadn't thought about that. I wonder if the free spool is a mechanical gearing thing... if so, it'd still work. I guess it depends on the particular winch.

And I dont think you were correct when you said that you suck at fabrication. You did an awesome job with the capstan winch fabrication.

Thanks for the compliment, but uh, no. I drew up plans and had a good friend do the actual fabrication. I only painted it. The only part of it that I actually fabricated was the fairlead and I had to rebuild that about 4 times before I finally got it right. Once it was, I got my Dad to weld it together.

I really need to learn to weld, I have Dad's old buzzbox stick welder here even. Just don't have the time to learn yet. One day... it's on the bucket list

 

[Stomper]

I have never pulled apart a 12v winch but I would almost be certain that the free wheel mechanism would be in the actual winch gearing but I have been wrong before.

 

[SidecarFlip]

That's a good point. I hadn't thought about that. I wonder if the free spool is a mechanical gearing thing... if so, it'd still work. I guess it depends on the particular winch.


Thanks for the compliment, but uh, no. I drew up plans and had a good friend do the actual fabrication. I only painted it. The only part of it that I actually fabricated was the fairlead and I had to rebuild that about 4 times before I finally got it right. Once it was, I got my Dad to weld it together.

I really need to learn to weld, I have Dad's old buzzbox stick welder here even. Just don't have the time to learn yet. One day... it's on the bucket list

Get yourself a moderately priced MIG welder. Gas MIG or Gasless MIG is a no brainer. Even a monkey can lay down an acceptable bead with proper fusion.

HF has a nice 'Vulcan' MIG machine, Hobart has them, so does Lincoln. No basic machine costs over 600 bucks and you can weld like a pro in about 15 minutes. I run SMAW, TIG, OA and MIG and when I need it quick, I always pick up the MIG. Just cannot weld alloy but for steel and aluminum (spool gun), MIG is hard to beat.

 

[Stomper]

Get yourself a moderately priced MIG welder. Gas MIG or Gasless MIG is a no brainer. Even a monkey can lay down an acceptable bead with proper fusion.

HF has a nice 'Vulcan' MIG machine, Hobart has them, so does Lincoln. No basic machine costs over 600 bucks and you can weld like a pro in about 15 minutes. I run SMAW, TIG, OA and MIG and when I need it quick, I always pick up the MIG. Just cannot weld alloy but for steel and aluminum (spool gun), MIG is hard to beat.

Agreed. Awelder and some welding skill opens up a huge variety of thing you can build

 

[boz1989]

Not the cheapest, www.summitracing.com/parts/mmk-70-50080c/
Just need to add a pressure relief valve.

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[Stomper]

No its not the cheapest but its a lot cheaper than an actual logging winch. Especially for the guy just looking at 6 of 7 cords of fire wood a year.

 

[crmorse]

I couldn't find anywhere on there where it stated flow or PSI requirements. I saw it is intended to run off of a car's power steering but I have no idea what those systems typically run. Seems like it would work though. But by the time you buy enough steel and fab up a proper three-point mount for it you're probably looking at the same price as the original Norwood and starting to get close to actual logging cable winches.