New to diesel -- what don't I know?

CaveCreekRay

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Jul 11, 2014
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Bob,
Lots of experience posted here already.
Diesels are funny animals. Sound like they are going to explode right after you start them up. Ever notice how cold the exhaust is after start? Stick your hand down there, hardly a whisper of heat. That tells you how slow your motor will heat up in idle.

I live in Arizona so, you'd think my weather is totally different than yours. To a point, that's true. I still hit my GPs, even in the summer here on first start of the day if I haven't started it in a week or two. Seems to help with a faster and cleaner start (less smoke). Diesels don't like to sit too long without use. Try to start yours at least every two or three weeks. In the winter, GP is a must even at my "toasty" 40F. Once warmed, it's no longer needed. (If you need more than one crank over, you need GP)

In summer, I'll start up and in 30 seconds, I'll gently raise the FEL and box and tip-toe outside to warm up. If you think about it, warming up in winter to get the tranny to 50F or so is really not necessary when it's already 60F or warmer. The key is lubrication: You want to make sure the engine is well "wet" with oil and the transmission has had time to power up the hydraulics (HST) to pressure. In summer on repeated starts throughout the day, they'll start right up when only slightly warm, just like a car.

Additives are like sports teams: Everyone has their favorite. One thing I will endorse is additives to the fuel which enhance "lubricity" because the fuel pump on a diesel runs at a higher pressure than a car and suffers from wear with these low sulfur fuels today. I use some Stanadyne additives (Amazon) to help keep the fuel pump and injectors as clean as I can. Wally Mart sells a fuel additive that woks on diesels and gas engines that is also a stabilizer to keep the fuel fresher longer.

One additive I haven't seen mentioned is a biocide. Diesel will grow fungi in summer if it gets contaminated while warm. I always treat stored gas with a tad of biocide to keep that from happening and I treat the tractor to a good dose once a year to keep the innards from gunking up with cooties. Those will stop you dead in your tracks if it gets into your system.

Have fun!
 
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BobInSD

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L5740
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South Dakota
1) What's a good biocide?

2) Is PowerService in the white bottle sufficient to keep summer fuel from gelling? If so, to what temps? I'll get winter fuel as soon as I can, but will have some summer fuel still in the tank.

3) Going the other way, is it better to not burn winter-mixed fuel in the summer?

Thanks
 

Tughill Tom

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1) What's a good biocide?

2) Is PowerService in the white bottle sufficient to keep summer fuel from gelling? If so, to what temps? I'll get winter fuel as soon as I can, but will have some summer fuel still in the tank.

3) Going the other way, is it better to not burn winter-mixed fuel in the summer?

Thanks
As far as a Biocide, I don't use one. I use Stanadyne Lubricity Formula every time I get fuel. Have never had an issue with Alge or gelling with trucks, Trail Groomers or tractors.

I only get my fuel at a hi-volume truck stop and it's Winterized by November 1st up this way and never any Bio-diesel.

With that said my Kubota does live in a heated garage and never left outside, Trucks and Trail groomers not so much. that is unless their being wrenched on.
 

GreensvilleJay

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The 'biggy' is to never,ever run out of diesel !!! Some engines are a real 'treat' to get reprimed and running again...... I always have 2 cans of diesel around here,never let tractor or forklift go below 1/4,not that I'm paranoid but spending 3hrs to reprime is NOT fun.....
 

BobInSD

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... never,ever run out of diesel !!! Some engines are a real 'treat' to get reprimed and running again...... I always have 2 cans of diesel around here,never let tractor or forklift go below 1/4,not that I'm paranoid but spending 3hrs to reprime is NOT fun.....
I'm pretty OCD and would have issues parking it if it were below a half tank. I guess a holdover from living in a humid climate back when gas tanks were metal. I would normally keep several full cans around, but this whole winter/summer fuel thing has me looking for the best compromise.

This is also my first ever tractor with a working fuel gauge, so it'll be a lot easier to keep track of.
 
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CaveCreekRay

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I used Stanadyne Lubricity* and I still had a flash red algae problem last winter. I am betting it came in with the new fuel I had recently bought. Had to wash down and treat four diesel cans before re-filling. I found a biocide at Wally Mart but anyone for diesel will do.

I always add the addictive and a diesel extender (and now biocide) to the empty jug before refilling at the gas station so it acts on the fuel immediately upon purchase. I also treat the tractor tank with one good shot every year to make sure nothing stays alive in the fuel system. Just good insurance.

* A buddy had a Kubota with 1400 hours on it and his fuel pump went. That part plus labor ran him almost a grand. I am nowhere near that time but, anything I can do to keep my pump happy is a good thing.
 

Bud605

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'09 L3540 HST
May 1, 2020
29
1
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Volga SD
The 'biggy' is to never,ever run out of diesel !!! Some engines are a real 'treat' to get reprimed and running again...... I always have 2 cans of diesel around here,never let tractor or forklift go below 1/4,not that I'm paranoid but spending 3hrs to reprime is NOT fun.....
Running out of fuel versus changing fuel filters now days is not a whole lot differant.

Additive wise, yeah its what you research and what you listen too... You live in SD, Runnings carries Stanadyne (clear bottle with blue lable) and assume you live close to a John Deere dealer. From my research (used to work nights and weekends with internet access) and spent many hours searching. Deeres winter formula was slightly better than Stanadyne and they all feel off from those two! Now if you try to run #2 with only formula, it WILL bite you in the ass up here!! Get close to winter I would try to go minimum of 50/50 with additive just to be safe. Nothing worse than thinking you have enough #1 and still gel up!

Straight Stanadyne will gel as well, kinda like straight antifreeze will.

Ideling, any diesel engine I try not to let idle under 1000RPM. Idle it up or down to warm up, cool down, or if your not using for a bit. Old wise/wives tale (however you want to say it) was that oil didnt circulate enough under 1000RPM. Cool it down at 1000 for what you think is cool enough then drop to low idle and shut it off.

You are asking question, your not a "know-it-all" and take advice from everyone and determine what you think is the best and you wont go wrong...
 

BobInSD

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... Now if you try to run #2 with only formula, it WILL bite you in the ass up here!! Get close to winter I would try to go minimum of 50/50 with additive just to be safe. Nothing worse than thinking you have enough #1 and still gel up!
Howdy Neighbor! Keeping in mind I mostly grew up where +5 was a very cold night, and I've been running gas tractors since moving here so as to not mess up, I have a few more questions:

1) I'm assuming #1 is winter deisel, #2 is summer deisel/heating oil?

2) When will smaller gas stations in town typicically switch over, and will this be well marked/noticable? (a friend claims he filled up his deisel car at a truck stop a few winters ago and had gelling. The truck stop told him they just mix for the anticiipated temps over next 72 hours regardless of season where a tank lasts him most of the winter)

3) I hear you saying I should be at at least 50% winter fuel plus additives when it gets cold (30F?). Then run all #1 and additive all winter. What are the issues with cycling back to #2 when it warms up? Engine damage from running #1 on a 60 F day, or just weak performance until I get some #2 in there?

Ideling, any diesel engine I try not to let idle under 1000RPM. Idle it up or down to warm up, cool down, or if your not using for a bit. Old wise/wives tale (however you want to say it) was that oil didnt circulate enough under 1000RPM. Cool it down at 1000 for what you think is cool enough then drop to low idle and shut it off.
Thanks for that. My slow idle is well below 1000. I'll pay attention to that.

You are asking question, your not a "know-it-all" and take advice from everyone and determine what you think is the best and you wont go wrong...
That's the plan! I'm guessing your tractor is very similar to mine (mine's a 2012). I'll probably have more questions,

Thank you.
 
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Bud605

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'09 L3540 HST
May 1, 2020
29
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Volga SD
1) I'm assuming #1 is winter deisel, #2 is summer deisel/heating oil?


Yes #1 is winter diesel, not sure about the heating oil on #2 I believe that is closer to a #1 as well, could be wrong...

2) When will smaller gas stations in town typicically switch over, and will this be well marked/noticable? (a friend claims he filled up his deisel car at a truck stop a few winters ago and had gelling. The truck stop told him they just mix for the anticiipated temps over next 72 hours regardless of season where a tank lasts him most of the winter)

Where is SD are you? It really depends on the town/station. Some will have a "blended" pump, some will have #1 and #2. I would say your more ag related town will have #1 pumps and let you figure out how you want it blended. I would try to find a station that has straight #1 and #2...

3) I hear you saying I should be at at least 50% winter fuel plus additives when it gets cold (30F?). Then run all #1 and additive all winter. What are the issues with cycling back to #2 when it warms up? Engine damage from running #1 on a 60 F day, or just weak performance until I get some #2 in there?

I wouldn't worry about it until the teens and below, however if you are getting to the point where you may not use it as much start when ever you like and it is available. #1 runs hotter and less efficient. Now Im not an expert but I highly doubt there would ever be any engine damage running #1 in the middle of summer.
The additives really are a personal choice, I know of friends that run no additive, and I have friends that run additives all year long. Some guys that run 100% number 1 in winter with zero additive tractors/pickups never see heated shed/garage and have no issues gelling.

I have been bit in the ass more times than I care to admit trying to squeeze by with 25% #1 and additive in my pickup. As for my tractor(s) in the winter time I consider them emergency equipment and run as much #1 in them as will fit. I have neither heated garage nor shed... That is maybe your answer I should have given you at the start...
 
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Mark_BX25D

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I know this thread has pretty much ended, but I thought I'd tack this excellent video from Messicks's to the info here, for the benefit of future readers:

 

BobInSD

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L5740
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Thanks Mark, it's actually a perfect time. Temps are supposed to be 33 F in town tonight and I'm normally 4-5 degrees cooler. I was going to put some winter power service (white jug) in this evening and idle for 5 minutes before it cools down, but not cut in any #1 yet ( we're expecting a warm snap after this, and I have quite a bit of blading and spraying to do, hopefully before the next cold snap)

My tractor is a 2012 model, and the manual says to use #1 diesel below 14 F. Once winter gets here, temps above 14 F are going to be few and far between. Kerosene is #1 Diesel, correct?

My plan, googled and stolen from some truck forum was to aim for:

70/30 #2/#1 when it gets colder than tonight (Say below 30-35 F)

then go for 30/70 #2/#1 when it gets even colder (say below 15 or 20 F)

straight #1 when it's hitting -20 or so?

My tractor has stickers indicating that they want me to use LSD or ULSD, so that was a thing in 2012. Is the Messick's video saying there's less lubricity in today's ULSD than in that from 2012? My understanding is that the gelling will happen over night at the cooler temps. While we see -30 (thankfully rarely) I try not to actually operate the tractor below -10 or so. So I guess I need more #1 to protect me at night, but don't want to run the tractor much with #1?

1) Does the additive both help me get away with more #1 (increased lubicity) and make the need for #1 less (anti-gelling additives)?

2) should I see if I can buy my gas 3020 back?
 

BigG

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Do not panic there have been many diesels run through the winter with no problems. You do not need to buy back a gas tractor for the winter.

You are being overly worried. You are correct in you need to take precautions but since you are taking the precautions you should be fine.

Are you keeping the tractor in a barn/garage? That will be a big help when you go to start it. Use up your summer blend of fuel thru the fall and when they start to ship the winter blend of diesel to your area go with that in the tractor. Keep your fuel tank full all winter to prevent condensation from forming in the tank. Look at your water separator, if there is no water you are good to go. If you find some water clean it out and put in a fresh filter.

If you are in an extremely cold area you might want to look at putting a block heater on the tractor if it does not already have one. There are arguments both ways pro and con but it does not hurt to have one one the tractor. The block heaters sure beat building a fire under the machine to warm it up as they did when the dinosaurs roamed the earth.

Do not over use the glow plugs. Read in your manual how long to run them before you start the engine. They are just like a starter if you run it for to long the starter will burn out.


Thanks Mark, it's actually a perfect time. Temps are supposed to be 33 F in town tonight and I'm normally 4-5 degrees cooler. I was going to put some winter power service (white jug) in this evening and idle for 5 minutes before it cools down, but not cut in any #1 yet ( we're expecting a warm snap after this, and I have quite a bit of blading and spraying to do, hopefully before the next cold snap)

My tractor is a 2012 model, and the manual says to use #1 diesel below 14 F. Once winter gets here, temps above 14 F are going to be few and far between. Kerosene is #1 Diesel, correct?

My plan, googled and stolen from some truck forum was to aim for:

70/30 #2/#1 when it gets colder than tonight (Say below 30-35 F)

then go for 30/70 #2/#1 when it gets even colder (say below 15 or 20 F)

straight #1 when it's hitting -20 or so?

My tractor has stickers indicating that they want me to use LSD or ULSD, so that was a thing in 2012. Is the Messick's video saying there's less lubricity in today's ULSD than in that from 2012? My understanding is that the gelling will happen over night at the cooler temps. While we see -30 (thankfully rarely) I try not to actually operate the tractor below -10 or so. So I guess I need more #1 to protect me at night, but don't want to run the tractor much with #1?

1) Does the additive both help me get away with more #1 (increased lubicity) and make the need for #1 less (anti-gelling additives)?

2) should I see if I can buy my gas 3020 back?
 
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BobInSD

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Do not panic there have been many diesels run through the winter with no problems. You do not need to buy back a gas tractor for the winter.
I was just joking about that part. I'm also having a loader issue, but I'm pretty sure it's gonna be better than the 60 year old gas tractor. I guess I need to learn to use emojis

I do have a barn, which is typically a few degree warmer than outside. I also have a block heater.

I'm not to worried, but the Kubota is a significant investment/upgrade from the gas tractors and I don't want to mess it up.

The glow plugs are supposed to indicate on the dash how long they should be on, and it did seem like a long time yesterday (again, seconds, probably not even 10). It fired right up, but temp was probably 45 or 50 at that point.
 

RCW

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Bob - - as far as winter blend, someone "in the business" once told me you can count on winter blend at the pump about 11/1 here. Was a while back - - true or not, I don't know.

I also add Power Service "white" to that, along with Power Service Bio Kleen. Gotten so I use biocide year-round.
 

dneal

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B2601
Jun 24, 2020
15
9
3
Missouri
Agree with the posters that you're overthinking this. ULSD you get from from pretty much any pump is fine. Lubricity is only really an issue for injector pumps. You would see a boatload of Kubotas with failed injector pumps if the lubricity of #2 was insufficient.

Refineries produce different blends (of #2 diesel) seasonally and regionally. The only issue you might have that would require an additive is if you bought some diesel in July and try using it in January. Stability isn't as much of an issue with diesel as gelling. That's why there's a different formulation for cold temps. Gelling is only an issue for getting fuel through the line to the engine. You have glow plugs to warm the combustion chamber.


1) I'm assuming #1 is winter deisel, #2 is summer deisel/heating oil?
No. The ULSD you get from the station is #2. In the winter it has additives to prevent gelling.

2) When will smaller gas stations in town typicically switch over, and will this be well marked/noticable? (a friend claims he filled up his deisel car at a truck stop a few winters ago and had gelling. The truck stop told him they just mix for the anticiipated temps over next 72 hours regardless of season where a tank lasts him most of the winter)
Refineries take care of this. If you have a concern, pick a different station. Truck stops go through enough diesel that they're one of the last places I would expect to get "old" fuel from. Maybe it was a cold snap early in the season. I never had a problem with my Golf diesel or Powerstroke.

3) I hear you saying I should be at at least 50% winter fuel plus additives when it gets cold (30F?). Then run all #1 and additive all winter. What are the issues with cycling back to #2 when it warms up? Engine damage from running #1 on a 60 F day, or just weak performance until I get some #2 in there?
The winter blend from refineries has anti-gelling additives. Don't run #1. Use the #2 ULSD from the pump. If you have a farm tank or fuel in a can (or your tractor) that's been there since summer, and winter hits, put some anti-gel additive in it.

Kerosene is #1 Diesel, correct?
NO!
 
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dneal

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B2601
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Not as cold as SD, but cold enough to gel diesel. You should be more worried about a block heater than diesel formulation.
 

tomstromie

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Aug 22, 2010
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Waconia, MN
In Minnesota there are problems with biodiesel gelling in the winter when it gets really cold. Stay away from it if you’re planning on using your tractor in the winter months.
 

Mossy dell

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This may've been answered but I wonder about off-road vs highway diesel fuel? Our local stations here in SW VA generally have both, with highway more expensive. I am getting a new tractor and wonder which way to go.