New guy on the block crank no start B7200

[ve9aa]

Didn't read every word. If it's already been said, disregard, with my apologies.

My TG1860 (yes, a little different diesel engine) is pretty much impossible to start without glowing for 20 seconds. (even in the summer time)

If you don't have a GP indicator, you don't have glowplugs (they're in series in that beast, I do believe) and the chances of you starting it without glow plugs probably goes way down.

I'm not a diesel mechanic, but, there you go. There are things you could do, but maybe since it's not your own machine I won't make shadetree suggestions.............YET ! ;-)

 

[ve9aa]

p.s.- with a multimeter, you can VERIFY if you have voltage at the glowplugs when you think you might.
multimeter set to volts.
Black lead, to engine block or other good ground location.
Red lead to any of the glow plugs where the wire/bus attaches.

The glow plugs are almost always in parallel, so if one has voltage, they all should.

Course, that won't really tell you if any are burnt out, but will tell you if they are getting voltage.

If your 'indicator" is burnt out, chances are you are not getting voltage at the glow plugs (GP's)

You can yank the electrical connection from each GP and Ohm them out (should be a couple Ohms, best as I can recall). (very similar to voltage test, but in this case, you need to do one at a time, with no wiring attached and have your meter on Ohms. The reading will be small. A couple of Ohms (but not a dead short at 0 Ohms)

Very common for "old guys" not especially handy, to just let them be burnt out and the wee beast just gets a little harder to start every year.

 

[Thatoneguy]

That was the case with mine... it was getting harder and harder to start and the colder temps didnt help much. They glowed slightly but if they didnt do that i would imagine the it would have fired at all. The op seems to be on the right track, if it worked before and then all of a sudden stopped, the indicator may have broke and wont warm the plugs. Its an old tractor...i believe my plugs were orginal equipment... if yours are original as well, it might be time anyways.

 

[cb750k8]

Thanks guy, I've ordered the glow plug indicator. I figure that's about my last hope before I tell the owner to call a shop. In my head I think that this is one thing which could just plain fail between one session of running fine, and then a few weeks later it won't start.

At least I know how to get to the back of the glow plug indicator now, as one thing I did previously during my efforts to get it going was to install the new key switch which the owner had on the shelf. The old switch was rotating in the bezel when turning the key and acting funky, so, since I had the new switch, I went ahead and installed it. It's weird that the area on the instrument panel which holds the key switch and the glow plug indicator has two layers of sheet metal, making it more difficult to install the switch, etc. Hard to describe unless you've done it.

I'll report back once I install the new indicator.

 

[cb750k8]

This is what my manual shows regarding the starting circuit.
Please be aware the Glow Plug Indicator may not be visible in daylight or in a lighted garage. This indicator was used widely as a cigarette lighter but that is of no help to you.
If tractor was running recently and no subsequent mods to the starting or fuel system then things could be down to your starting technique.

Battery in full charge.
Choke knob (red) fully in
Throttle half open.
Foot on clutch
Decompression knob (black) pulled fully out.
Key switch counter clockwise ( I count to 30) to heat glow plugs.
Key switch clockwise to engage starter and crank engine at fast speed.
Release Decompression Knob and Engine slows to starting speed and should fire up.

Good luck

 

[Allgonquin]

OK friends, I'm back, and the plot thickens. Thanks for your help so far!

So, I got a new glow plug indicator, and installed it. I'm getting good at taking the dash panel off to access the back.... I installed it with no battery in the tractor, so I wouldn't accidentally short something. Now I installed the battery which is fully charged. Checked throttle (middle), checked in neutral, ok. Turned key to glow position while watching my new indicator. It glowed bright red right away, within a few seconds. OK! So I thought. As I watched it through the small hole, it basically melted down, and at the same time, the fusible link fried. Took me a while to relate the small wisp of smoke I saw from the left side of the engine while observing the meltdown, and the fact that now it would not crank, to think, OK, what now, and I remembered the fusible link. Sure enough, I made my own jumper to replace the link and it cranks fine.

So now I'm puzzling. Shouldn't a glow indicator be able to handle 12V directly without frying? And why did the fusible link fry? There is only 12V in the tractor, and OK, maybe the battery was at ~13V after being fully charged, but c'mon, that should not melt either one of those voltage levels, right?

Other info. I did not buy an actual Kubota part for the glow indicator. Bought it from "Reliable Aftermarket Parts" where I actually spoke to a human to order it. But I guess it could still be Chicom. The box does not say.

About the fusible link. It was clearly original, and pretty corroded where the spades were crimped to the wires. Maybe that's why it fried. But it obviously withstood all the cranking and previous start attempts.

EDIT:
One more weird thing. I decided to bench test the original glow plug indicator. I have a 12V power supply, hooked it up and got nothing - no glow, no warming. But then I remembered that power supplies can act weird with some loads, so I connected the indicator direct to the 12V battery on the bench and boom, instant glowing. I quickly disconnected it for fear it would melt down. Could it be that the resistance of the glow plugs themselves reduces the voltage so as not to melt the indicator?
END EDIT

So, any suggestions about where to get genuine Kubota parts, hopefully at less than list price? Has anyone replaced the fusible link with a fuse holder and an appropriate size fuse? (what size?) And any other thoughts about the situation?

TIA,
Allgonquin

This is what my manual shows regarding the starting circuit.
Please be aware the Glow Plug Indicator may not be visible in daylight or in a lighted garage. This indicator was used widely as a cigarette lighter but that is of no help to you.
If tractor was running recently and no subsequent mods to the starting or fuel system then things could be down to your starting technique.

Battery in full charge.
Choke knob (red) fully in
Throttle half open.
Foot on clutch
Decompression knob (black) pulled fully out.
Key switch counter clockwise ( I count to 30) to heat glow plugs.
Key switch clockwise to engage starter and crank engine at fast speed.
Release Decompression Knob and Engine slows to starting speed and should fire up.

Good luck








View attachment 97541

 

[sitric]

It sounds like a short to ground beyond the glow plug indicator. Use your ohmmeter from the wire beyond the indicator to ground, and see if you have continuity. You shouldn't.

 

[Russell King]

The 12 or 13 volts of the battery has little to do with the amount of amps going through the fuse. The fusible link melted because more than rated amps were being drawn through it. I would get that fixed before you do anything else since it is protecting the wiring of your tractor. You can replace the fusible link with a fuse of the same amp rating.

It seems like the glow plug wiring is going directly to ground and drawing a lot of amps.

I would get OEM glow plugs and indicator and make sure everything in that circuit is wired properly. Do you completely understand the wiring and what is connecting to the next point in the wiring circuit of the glow plugs? It is pretty straightforward wiring but can be easily messed up if the wiring g to the wrong place. Ask for help if you have any questions.

the OEM prices should not be very high for these few parts and they will probably be NGK branded when you get them.

you can do a simple wiring outside the tractor wiring to see if that works for the circuit and then move to the on board wiring a step at a time.

 

[fried1765]

OK friends, I'm back, and the plot thickens. Thanks for your help so far!

So, I got a new glow plug indicator, and installed it. I'm getting good at taking the dash panel off to access the back.... I installed it with no battery in the tractor, so I wouldn't accidentally short something. Now I installed the battery which is fully charged. Checked throttle (middle), checked in neutral, ok. Turned key to glow position while watching my new indicator. It glowed bright red right away, within a few seconds. OK! So I thought. As I watched it through the small hole, it basically melted down, and at the same time, the fusible link fried. Took me a while to relate the small wisp of smoke I saw from the left side of the engine while observing the meltdown, and the fact that now it would not crank, to think, OK, what now, and I remembered the fusible link. Sure enough, I made my own jumper to replace the link and it cranks fine.

So now I'm puzzling. Shouldn't a glow indicator be able to handle 12V directly without frying? And why did the fusible link fry? There is only 12V in the tractor, and OK, maybe the battery was at ~13V after being fully charged, but c'mon, that should not melt either one of those voltage levels, right?

Other info. I did not buy an actual Kubota part for the glow indicator. Bought it from "Reliable Aftermarket Parts" where I actually spoke to a human to order it. But I guess it could still be Chicom. The box does not say.

About the fusible link. It was clearly original, and pretty corroded where the spades were crimped to the wires. Maybe that's why it fried. But it obviously withstood all the cranking and previous start attempts.

EDIT:
One more weird thing. I decided to bench test the original glow plug indicator. I have a 12V power supply, hooked it up and got nothing - no glow, no warming. But then I remembered that power supplies can act weird with some loads, so I connected the indicator direct to the 12V battery on the bench and boom, instant glowing. I quickly disconnected it for fear it would melt down. Could it be that the resistance of the glow plugs themselves reduces the voltage so as not to melt the indicator?
END EDIT

So, any suggestions about where to get genuine Kubota parts, hopefully at less than list price? Has anyone replaced the fusible link with a fuse holder and an appropriate size fuse? (what size?) And any other thoughts about the situation?

TIA,
Allgonquin

"Reliable Aftermarket Parts" is anything BUT reliable.
Nearly everything they sell is Chinesium.
I do not buy anything from "Reliable"
BTW, Stevens Tractor parts apparently has the same owner as "Reliable".

 

[whitetiger]

So, any suggestions about where to get genuine Kubota parts

Coleman Equipment, Bonner Springs, Kansas
Internet Parts
866-929-2876
parts@colemanequip.com

 

[ve9aa]

Sounds like somewhere in your GP circuit, it's shorted to ground, thus 'infinite' current.
Kills GP indicator, fusible link, harms battery etc.

You need to be able to understand (and troubleshoot)_the GP cct before you do anything else. I gave some pointers earlier in this thread.

 

[Allgonquin]

I'm working on it.... With my schedule it's just hard to find a some quality time to spend on this machine.

Sounds like somewhere in your GP circuit, it's shorted to ground, thus 'infinite' current.
Kills GP indicator, fusible link, harms battery etc.

You need to be able to understand (and troubleshoot)_the GP cct before you do anything else. I gave some pointers earlier in this thread.

 

[IdahoNative]

My two cents…
As Wolfman suggested, do the simple injector pop test. Admittedly, his how-to sounds more difficult than it is. It’s easy and took me less than 30 minutes, costs nothing but your time.
I’ve discovered key members here are experts at certain subjects…motor/fuel operations, transmissions, electric, hydraulics…Wolfman is the best at diagnosing motor/fuel issues.

 

[Allgonquin]

I'm back. Had about 30 minutes of free time to work on it today. I can now pull the steering wheel and unbolt the instrument panel in just a few minutes, so I got that goin' for me! Anyway, I started tracing wires in the glow plug circuit - thanks cb750 - . I was doing this with no battery. Everything seemed OK. I pulled the melted glow plug indicator. I put in my newly fabbed fusible link. I put the battery in, and, no voltage to the glow plug wire terminals when trying to glow it. Go figure. It will crank, so my link is working. I was running short on time but I noticed some funkyness in the wiring near the battery which I had not seen before, it looks like a few fuses put in (in parts store fuse holders) which are not factory. So that's my next move, to check those fuses, which I didn't have time for today. I'll report back after next work session.

 

[N3BP]

I'm back. Had about 30 minutes of free time to work on it today. I can now pull the steering wheel and unbolt the instrument panel in just a few minutes, so I got that goin' for me! Anyway, I started tracing wires in the glow plug circuit - thanks cb750 - . I was doing this with no battery. Everything seemed OK. I pulled the melted glow plug indicator. I put in my newly fabbed fusible link. I put the battery in, and, no voltage to the glow plug wire terminals when trying to glow it. Go figure. It will crank, so my link is working. I was running short on time but I noticed some funkyness in the wiring near the battery which I had not seen before, it looks like a few fuses put in (in parts store fuse holders) which are not factory. So that's my next move, to check those fuses, which I didn't have time for today. I'll report back after next work session.

There are two factory installed fuse holders with fuses in them up front near the batter (for gear drive 7200's). I don't believe either of them fuse anything with the glow plug system though.

 

[Allgonquin]

OK, now I'm bummed. That's about where the fuses are located on the one I'm working on but the fuse holders are different. Somewhere along the way someone probably changed the glass tube fuses for more modern blade fuses. And here I thought I had a possible road to go down. I'll check them anyway for sure.

There are two factory installed fuse holders with fuses in them up front near the batter (for gear drive 7200's). I don't believe either of them fuse anything with the glow plug system though.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Have you used a test light or meter to see if your getting power out of the switch?

 

[Allgonquin]

OK folk, it runs! The answer is a two parter. One involves extreme ineptitude on my part, and one is simple, once you know it, but it took me all this time to figure it you. The first part involves the new key switch I installed (owner had it on the shelf, but not installed, because the old switch basically wanted to rotate every time you turned the key. When I installed it, I mistakenly swapped the two leads to the glow plug indicator (really short leads) where they connected to the key switch terminals. As I was further tracing wires today I realized this and reconnected them to the correct terminals. Tested the glow plug indicator (the original one) and although I could not see it glowing in the bright sunlight, I have a small brand on my fingertip now. So I though was golden at that point.

Gave her a good s l o w 30 count while glowing and cranked. And cranked. And cranked. And bled, and bled. And re-glowed, etc. NO JOY. The GP's were definitely working, because I could see slight smoke trails at each GP, which were hot enough to vaporize some of the liquid fuel sitting there from bleeding. I was totally bummed and pretty much wanted to give up. Meanwhile the owner's wife had come out while I was working and I had no good news for her. She went on about her business and left on an errand. A little while later, I just randomly looked at the compression release mechanism. As I noted originally, the cable was broken (at the knob end) when I started this journey, but I had verified many times that it would crank significantly faster when I operated the mechanism by hand, so I figured it was working correctly. What I did not realize was that even though the mechanism had a lot of travel, and even though the crank speed was way different, The end of the cable still attached to the mechanism was restricting the last bit of travel for the mechanism! So I got in there and freed up the cable and got that last bit of travel out of the mechanism, and gave it a bump.

Right away, just from that small bump, I could tell it was cranking WITH COMPRESSION now. Totally different crank. I knew I was on to it then. So I gave her another 30 second glow, cranked her and she started right up! I let out a yell, I wanna tell you. The neighbors probably wondered what was up. The thing is, I had no experience with this tractor, so I had no idea what the "normal" crank was. As soon as I heard that totally different crank, well, you know. And yes, I know some of you asked me to post a vid while cranking, but yadda yadda, no excuse. So consider this one solved, and thanks to all of you for hanging in there with me. I'll do an oil change and fan belt change next weekend for the woman, and that machine will be good to go.

Have you used a test light or meter to see if your getting power out of the switch?

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

OK folk, it runs! The answer is a two parter. One involves extreme ineptitude on my part, and one is simple, once you know it, but it took me all this time to figure it you. The first part involves the new key switch I installed (owner had it on the shelf, but not installed, because the old switch basically wanted to rotate every time you turned the key. When I installed it, I mistakenly swapped the two leads to the glow plug indicator (really short leads) where they connected to the key switch terminals. As I was further tracing wires today I realized this and reconnected them to the correct terminals. Tested the glow plug indicator (the original one) and although I could not see it glowing in the bright sunlight, I have a small brand on my fingertip now. So I though was golden at that point.

Gave her a good s l o w 30 count while glowing and cranked. And cranked. And cranked. And bled, and bled. And re-glowed, etc. NO JOY. The GP's were definitely working, because I could see slight smoke trails at each GP, which were hot enough to vaporize some of the liquid fuel sitting there from bleeding. I was totally bummed and pretty much wanted to give up. Meanwhile the owner's wife had come out while I was working and I had no good news for her. She went on about her business and left on an errand. A little while later, I just randomly looked at the compression release mechanism. As I noted originally, the cable was broken (at the knob end) when I started this journey, but I had verified many times that it would crank significantly faster when I operated the mechanism by hand, so I figured it was working correctly. What I did not realize was that even though the mechanism had a lot of travel, and even though the crank speed was way different, The end of the cable still attached to the mechanism was restricting the last bit of travel for the mechanism! So I got in there and freed up the cable and got that last bit of travel out of the mechanism, and gave it a bump.

Right away, just from that small bump, I could tell it was cranking WITH COMPRESSION now. Totally different crank. I knew I was on to it then. So I gave her another 30 second glow, cranked her and she started right up! I let out a yell, I wanna tell you. The neighbors probably wondered what was up. The thing is, I had no experience with this tractor, so I had no idea what the "normal" crank was. As soon as I heard that totally different crank, well, you know. And yes, I know some of you asked me to post a vid while cranking, but yadda yadda, no excuse. So consider this one solved, and thanks to all of you for hanging in there with me. I'll do an oil change and fan belt change next weekend for the woman, and that machine will be good to go.

Excellent to hear you got it going!

 

[IdahoNative]

Victory at last!