New guy on the block crank no start B7200

[Allgonquin]

Hi folks, just joined. Sorry for this long post. I have read a bunch of threads on this, but still……I'm a decent DIY mechanic with lots of automotive experience and I owned a diesel car for a long time. My neighbor's husband passed away and they have a B7200, 4WD which will not start. Don't know the year. It was running fine about 4 weeks ago. Fuel tank is full, fuel cock is open, fuel reaches the sediment bowl (removed and cleaned a bit of crud) throttle and shutoff cable are free, compression release cable is broken but I can move the lever by hand fine. Crank speed seems fine (I charged the battery) and I can tell a difference in crank speed when compression release is engaged. When cranking, I get no white smoke out the stack. So no fuel, right?

I read the manual. I have tried bleeding by cranking for 10+ seconds with the “air vent" plug screw open and the engine stop pulled. (also tried without engine stop pulled!) Question, should fuel come out at/near that bleed vent when fuel reaches that point? So far no fuel has come out from that air vent plug screw. Next – glow plugs. I can not see the glow indicator glowing when I turn the key counterclockwise to glow. However, with my voltmeter on the battery, and I switch to glowing (without cranking) there is a significant drop in voltage, telling me that the glow plugs are actually working. I cleaned wiring to 2 of the 3 plugs which were more easily accessible. I see in manuals, etc. that the glow plug indicator is called the glow plug controller. Question – can the glow plugs work without the glow plug indicator controller working? But anyway since no white smoke, even if the glow plugs are working fine, I would think no start.

I can see the rocker shaft moving fine through the oil fill cap hole when cranking.

My next steps will be to replace the fuel filter and the sediment bowl seal, in case air is being drawn in there. However I do not think that this was an issue as the tractor was running a few weeks ago. But since I now opened it, it needs to be bled again. Next step after that will be to crack fuel lines at the injectors to see if I can get fuel up there. I’m still concerned that I got no fuel to the bleed vent screw, if that is supposed to happen.

Last diag info I can provide. It was mid 40’s outside while I was working on her. Please forgive me, but I gave her a small whiff of starting fluid, and cranked without glow plugs, hoping to get at least one pop. Got nothing – zilch – nada. Not even a single pop. So I did not want to try starting fluid again, knowing that for some engines it is not a good thing. The fact that I got no firing at all bothers me.

Question. Apparently there is a start interlock of some kind requiring the clutch to be engaged when starting? I would assume this would prevent cranking, but not prevent starting? I tried everything with and without the clutch engaged, and it did not change anything. I assume that the tractor could be started without someone in the seat pushing the clutch, providing it’s in neutral. Can any start interlocks prevent starting when cranking? It cranks just fine….

I’ve seen one vid online where a cover plate on the injection pump is removed to free up a lever arm inside, but I’d rather not go there since the tractor was running fine not that long ago.

TIA,
Allgonquin

 

[GreensvilleJay]

DO NOT USE ETHER !! you stand a 99.44% chance of destroying the engine !!!
I say again...
DO NOT USE ETHER !! you stand a 99.44% chance of destroying the engine !!!

Hopefully you haven't already.......

YES, fuel should come out of that "air vent".

Others will know for sure, but 'generally' speaking.YES.
I suspect the 'lift pump' may not be getting power. It's the pump that sucks fuel out of the tank and pumps it into the injector pump unit.
Normally when you turn the key to 'on', you can hear a 'tik-tik-tik' of that lift pump running.

others with that model will surely respond...man I sure hope you have handgrenaded the engine.....

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I read the manual. I have tried bleeding by cranking for 10+ seconds with the “air vent" plug screw open and the engine stop pulled. (also tried without engine stop pulled!) Question, should fuel come out at/near that bleed vent when fuel reaches that point? So far no fuel has come out from that air vent plug screw.

My next steps will be to replace the fuel filter and the sediment bowl seal, in case air is being drawn in there. However I do not think that this was an issue as the tractor was running a few weeks ago. But since I now opened it, it needs to be bled again. Next step after that will be to crack fuel lines at the injectors to see if I can get fuel up there. I’m still concerned that I got no fuel to the bleed vent screw, if that is supposed to happen.

Your not getting fuel to the injection pump if your not getting fuel out of the bleeder.
This would not be because the bowl or seals are letting air in, as you would get fuel out before you get air in, it' s below the tank.

Pull the line off of the out of fuel filter and verify you get fuel flowing out of it.
Then if you do open the air bleeder (jet start valve) on the side of the injection pump, crank several times if you don't get fuel there then it's either got a plug somewhere in the lines after the fuel filter or you have a bad lift pump.
The lift pump is mechanical on that model, not electrical.

 

[N3BP]

Looking at my 7200 FSM, the glow plug indicator is wired in series with the glow plugs. If it does not light or heat up, the glow plugs will not preheat. Sometimes the indicator is hard to see, so you can put your finger close to the opening. You should feel the heat. The FSM also states if the fusible link is blow, it can cause loss of the glow plugs.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

hmm, explains why I'd never hear it !

 

[tsp159]

My B7100 needs all the glow plug to start, even in warm weather. Like...a minute, easily. Very cold blooded.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Looking at my 7200 FSM, the glow plug indicator is wired in series with the glow plugs. If it does not light or heat up, the glow plugs will not preheat. Sometimes the indicator is hard to see, so you can put your finger close to the opening. You should feel the heat. The FSM also states if the fusible link is blow, it can cause loss of the glow plugs.

#1 It's WSM not FSM
#2 If the fusible link was blown it wouldn't crank, as the fusible link is all the power for the tractor.

 

[N3BP]

When you're right, you're right! I didn't look too close at the "start" position wiring diagram, or I would have seen that. Now that I have, I didn't realize the glow plugs are still energized when starting the engine. Between the starter and glow plugs, that's taxing on those little batteries.

 

[Allgonquin]

Thanks Wolfman and others, at least I have a direction to go in now. I'll report back when I know more. And OK, no more starting fluid! I don't think the engine is damaged because it never popped even once.

 

[hodge]

Welcome to the forum!

 

[N3BP]

Thanks Wolfman and others, at least I have a direction to go in now. I'll report back when I know more. And OK, no more starting fluid! I don't think the engine is damaged because it never popped even once.

These D750-D950's are extremely warm blooded. So warmblooded that not even ether can wake them up if they are cold! It could be 70 degrees outside and I'd still have to glow them for a bit.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

These D750-D950's are extremely warm blooded. So warmblooded that not even ether can wake them up if they are cold! It could be 70 degrees outside and I'd still have to glow them for a bit.

Yes this is true, but he needs to get fuel to the Injection pump first (which he doesn't have) before glow plugs come into play.

 

[Allgonquin]

OK Kubota whisperers, I'm back, and I'm pulling what little hair I have left out. I have verified that the lift pump _seems_ to be working. I replaced the fuel line from the filter to the lift pump. - old one was crispy but was not blocked. I get pulses of fuel out of the lift pump up to the air vent plug screw. I pulled the small diameter line from the vent plug screw fitting up to the forward injector and I get pulses of fuel there. I cracked each injector and get fuel to each injector. Why do I say "seems" to be working? What I don't know is whether I'm getting sufficient volume or pressure from the lift pump, but it seem like a healthy amount. And I keep thinking that the engine was running fine a month or so ago.

As I crank I get a little white smoke, but it's not clouds of white smoke like a 71 series Detroit - then again this is a tiny engine by comparison.

I pulled the air filter hose from the manifold and blew my lit propane torch into the inlet to heat inlet air while cranking. Got nothing. If I cover the inlet opening with my fingers while cranking it seems to pull a good vacuum through my fingers.

Two more thoughts. Others have said that these engines are really sensitive to glowing. I still see no sign with the glow indicator that it's glowing, but as I noted before there is a big draw on the battery when I glow it. I guess I should replace that indicator coil just because?

Finally, is there any sort of interlock which would prevent the engine from firing even if it cranks fine? I have tried cranking with the throttle open wide, closed, and somewhere in the middle. Compression release is not engaged, stop cable is not pulled. Excellent cranking, just no firing at all. It's about 50F here today, so not super cold.

I'm gonna hate to tell my neighbor's wife that she's going to have to call a shop, if it comes to that. And I hate that I can not get this thing going! Fuel, air, compression....seems like it has all! Why no fire?

Yes this is true, but he needs to get fuel to the Injection pump first (which he doesn't have) before glow plugs come into play.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

You have air trapped between the injection pump and the injectors.
Crack all the lines right at the top of the injectors set the throttle to high and crank it in short intervals of like 10 seconds on 10 sec off so you don't over heat the starter.
It takes a couple minutes doing this to get all the air out of the system you're not going to hurt anything doing the bleed too long!
Then while still bleeding it tighten one line and keep going then another, usually by then it will fire on at least one cylinder.

And your lift pump is fine its only a small amount and no pressure involved.
And no interlocks at all, it really doesn't need any power to run other than to spin the starter and heat the glowplugs.

If this doesn't work (99% of the time it will) let us know and I'll give you the second way to get it going.

 

[Allgonquin]

Well, I was all excited to try this, but.....no joy just now. Did my best to bleed the snot out of it. Cracked all 3 lines and cranked. Fuel coming out the tops of the three injectors in small spurts. Closed one line while cranking, cranked some more and closed second line while cranking, and cranked more and closed 3rd line. Tried this many times. Faint smoke still coming from stack, but not much. I've put the battery back on charge and I'm back home crying in my soup, as it were!

You have air trapped between the injection pump and the injectors.
Crack all the lines right at the top of the injectors set the throttle to high and crank it in short intervals of like 10 seconds on 10 sec off so you don't over heat the starter.
It takes a couple minutes doing this to get all the air out of the system you're not going to hurt anything doing the bleed too long!
Then while still bleeding it tighten one line and keep going then another, usually by then it will fire on at least one cylinder.

And your lift pump is fine its only a small amount and no pressure involved.
And no interlocks at all, it really doesn't need any power to run other than to spin the starter and heat the glowplugs.

If this doesn't work (99% of the time it will) let us know and I'll give you the second way to get it going.

 

[PoTreeBoy]

Well, I was all excited to try this, but.....no joy just now. Did my best to bleed the snot out of it. Cracked all 3 lines and cranked. Fuel coming out the tops of the three injectors in small spurts. Closed one line while cranking, cranked some more and closed second line while cranking, and cranked more and closed 3rd line. Tried this many times. Faint smoke still coming from stack, but not much. I've put the battery back on charge and I'm back home crying in my soup, as it were!

How fast is the starter cranking it? We had a guy a week or so ago go through similar grief until he fixed the starter wiring, bad ground connection I think. Would it be possible to post a video? You have to post it on something like youTube and insert a link here.

It fired right up as soon as he got it spinning.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Well, I was all excited to try this, but.....no joy just now. Did my best to bleed the snot out of it. Cracked all 3 lines and cranked. Fuel coming out the tops of the three injectors in small spurts. Closed one line while cranking, cranked some more and closed second line while cranking, and cranked more and closed 3rd line. Tried this many times. Faint smoke still coming from stack, but not much. I've put the battery back on charge and I'm back home crying in my soup, as it were!

As PoTreeBoy said, spin speed is you friend.
Try a different battery if need be.
And yes if you can take a little video that helps too!

I'll give you a couple other things to try.

Have you done a compression test?

It could be the decompression lever is not fully disengaging causing the valves to not seal.

Have you checked that the glow plugs are getting power while cranking?

Pull all the injectors out of the engine, also remove the Injector lines, being very careful using 2 wrenches to not turn the delivery valve holder ( nut just on top of injection pump just below the nut for the injector line ).

Hook one line up to the injection pump off to the side (snug up that side) then loosely install an injector, do a quick bleed of that line then snug up the injector, put a piece of cardboard under the injector and look at the pattern, are you getting a nice fog pattern?

Report back.

 

[Allgonquin]

I have really good cranking speed, so I don't think that is an issue. Battery is relatively new and I'm keeping it charged. Cables are in good condition.

I just ordered a glow plug indicator, although I doubt that will change anything.

I don't have a compression tester for a diesel, and I'm not going to invest in one.... It just would seem super weird that it's running fine, then shut down for a couple/few weeks, and now won't start.

Regarding the decompression lever, well, I'll have another look, but when I move it by hand (cable is broken) while cranking, the cranking speed increases noticeably, so I think it's working OK. But I'll check as best I can whether it's moving full travel.

I think I'll probably give up before pulling the injectors to do a pop test. It's deeper than I want to get into the engine, and I don't want to mess something up.

I'll see if I can shoot a video and upload it.

Thanks for the help and suggestions, I really appreciate it!

As PoTreeBoy said, spin speed is you friend.
Try a different battery if need be.
And yes if you can take a little video that helps too!

I'll give you a couple other things to try.

Have you done a compression test?

It could be the decompression lever is not fully disengaging causing the valves to not seal.

Have you checked that the glow plugs are getting power while cranking?

Pull all the injectors out of the engine, also remove the Injector lines, being very careful using 2 wrenches to not turn the delivery valve holder ( nut just on top of injection pump just below the nut for the injector line ).

Hook one line up to the injection pump off to the side (snug up that side) then loosely install an injector, do a quick bleed of that line then snug up the injector, put a piece of cardboard under the injector and look at the pattern, are you getting a nice fog pattern?

Report back.

 

[Thatoneguy]

I had a similar problem with my b7200 having a hard time starting a while ago and i read an unrelated post regarding the correlation between the glow plugs and the indicator. Even parked in a garage with a temp around 40 to 50 degrees would cause me trouble starting. It would puff white smoke while cranking multiple multiple attempt for an uncomfortable amount of time before it eventually fired.

Slightly different scenario but one thing you said that stands out to me is that the indicator isnt working. On my machine, glowing the plugs would warm the indicator to the point that if i held my finger over the sight window it would get hot enough to start to burn the tip of my finger. Although it got warm, the coil never glowed red as it was intended. It was my understanding that the if the indicator is broken, the plugs would not glow at all. (I could be wrong). If the indicator wasnt broken and still wouldnt glow it was most likely the glow plugs were shot out. Since my indicator got hot but wouldnt glow red, i replaced the glow plugs. They seemed decent when i pulled them out but i replaced them anyways. I also dont know what a bad glow plug looks like... it isnt a spark plug and the dealer educated me on the glow plugs by saying, "You can tell when the glow plugs are bad when they stop glowing". He was kidding of course.

It was a noticeable difference with starting quickly when cold. My indicator now glows bright red after about 30 seconds of glowing.

It might be something cheap and easy to check. Just DONT use starting fluid

 

[Allgonquin]

Thanks guy, I've ordered the glow plug indicator. I figure that's about my last hope before I tell the owner to call a shop. In my head I think that this is one thing which could just plain fail between one session of running fine, and then a few weeks later it won't start.

At least I know how to get to the back of the glow plug indicator now, as one thing I did previously during my efforts to get it going was to install the new key switch which the owner had on the shelf. The old switch was rotating in the bezel when turning the key and acting funky, so, since I had the new switch, I went ahead and installed it. It's weird that the area on the instrument panel which holds the key switch and the glow plug indicator has two layers of sheet metal, making it more difficult to install the switch, etc. Hard to describe unless you've done it.

I'll report back once I install the new indicator.

I had a similar problem with my b7200 having a hard time starting a while ago and i read an unrelated post regarding the correlation between the glow plugs and the indicator. Even parked in a garage with a temp around 40 to 50 degrees would cause me trouble starting. It would puff white smoke while cranking multiple multiple attempt for an uncomfortable amount of time before it eventually fired.

Slightly different scenario but one thing you said that stands out to me is that the indicator isnt working. On my machine, glowing the plugs would warm the indicator to the point that if i held my finger over the sight window it would get hot enough to start to burn the tip of my finger. Although it got warm, the coil never glowed red as it was intended. It was my understanding that the if the indicator is broken, the plugs would not glow at all. (I could be wrong). If the indicator wasnt broken and still wouldnt glow it was most likely the glow plugs were shot out. Since my indicator got hot but wouldnt glow red, i replaced the glow plugs. They seemed decent when i pulled them out but i replaced them anyways. I also dont know what a bad glow plug looks like... it isnt a spark plug and the dealer educated me on the glow plugs by saying, "You can tell when the glow plugs are bad when they stop glowing". He was kidding of course.

It was a noticeable difference with starting quickly when cold. My indicator now glows bright red after about 30 seconds of glowing.

It might be something cheap and easy to check. Just DONT use starting fluid