LX3310 HSD 50 Hour Maintenance Disaster

ken erickson

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I'd use a fine thread pitch tap which results in a stronger thread compared to coarse thread pitches.
It has always been my understanding that generally coarse threads are preferred in soft materials such as aluminum. Coarse threads will resist stripping or ”pulling” threads when over torqued compared to fine threads.
 
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mcmxi

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It has always been my understanding that generally course threads are preferred in soft materials such as aluminum. Course threads will resist stripping or ”pulling” threads when over torqued compared to fine threads.
Fine threads have a higher tensile strength, so regardless of material they offer improved resistance to shearing. I'll have to dip into my Machinery's Handbook it seems.
 
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WI_Hedgehog

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I get all of the suggestions of using a helicoil, but I'd probably drill out the hole to the next metric thread size up, tap it and buy a new plug and washer. If the mismatch bothered me enough I'd drill and tap the other side too so that they're the same. I'd use a fine thread pitch tap which results in a stronger thread compared to coarse thread pitches.
Aluminum usually has a reinforcement shoulder for strengthening the oil drain area, and there are other force and wear considerations. Generally a solid repair method such as welding/tapping or a Time-Sert is preferred. But yeah, that definitely works too.
 
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Russell King

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Since you mentioned the need for screw drivers look to get high quality ones. Snap On are good and the used to put a small hex at the top near the handle so you could use a small wrench to rotate the blade while you are putting a lot of pressure on the handle. There are variations on that so look for something similar.

Also note there are variations on what is often referred to as Phillips and screw driver tips that match them. Many mechanical screws are not Phillips but are similar and probably JIS cross on the Kubota

And you might want to look at battery powered wrenches like this and if you get the impact style they can help break loose and tighten bolts. Like this
 

DustyRusty

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Since you mentioned the need for screw drivers look to get high quality ones. Snap On are good and the used to put a small hex at the top near the handle so you could use a small wrench to rotate the blade while you are putting a lot of pressure on the handle. There are variations on that so look for something similar.

Also note there are variations on what is often referred to as Phillips and screw driver tips that match them. Many mechanical screws are not Phillips but are similar and probably JIS cross on the Kubota

And you might want to look at battery powered wrenches like this and if you get the impact style they can help break loose and tighten bolts. Like this
Loosen yes, but I would be careful tightening with any power tools unless you know what you are doing. The very best of tools in the hands of the inexperienced are no better than the cheapest tools available. Knowing how to use the tools is the most important part of wrenching.
 

whitetiger

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You need to fire your dealer, The housing is $304.25, the shaft seal is #31.89, and the R&R time is 1.6 hours which will make the tractor the same as new again. See the attached pdf. These prices are from Coleman Equipment.

There is no tube inside the housing and the plug does not connect anything, it just holds the oil in.
 

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TheOldHokie

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Fine threads have a higher tensile strength, so regardless of material they offer improved resistance to shearing. I'll have to dip into my Machinery's Handbook it seems.
Or for those wuithout a handbook their 9th grade geometry textbook.

Fine threads have a longer helix length which offsets the reduced cross sectional area of an individual thread by putting more total cross sectional area in shear. In practice that principle, just like length of thread engagement, is limited by the rule of diminishining returns....

Dan
 
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mcmxi

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Or for those wuithout a handbook their 9th grade geometry textbook.

Fine threads have a longer helix length which offsets the reduced cross sectional area of an individual thread by putting more total cross sectional area in shear. In practice that principle, just like length of thread engagement, is limited by the rule of diminishining returns....

Dan
One of the great things about tractors is that they involve all manner of engineering principles. For many of us this results in a curiosity and we dig into things that we might have learned and/or forgotten a long time ago.

Anyway, to that end, I did dip into my Machinery's Handbook this morning and compared 1/4-20 to 1/4-28 bolts with similar and dissimilar materials, and looked at bolt/thread failure. The relevant section makes the point that failure can occur due to the bolt breaking, the bolt threads stripping or the internal threads stripping ... kind of obvious. It's not hard to calculate the amount of thread engagement required to "guarantee" that the bolt breaks rather than the external or internal threads shear.

I ran those calculations and for a 1/4-20 bolt there needs to be a minimum of 0.173" of thread engagement for the bolt to break. For a 1/4-28 bolt there needs to be 0.195" of thread engagement for the bolt to break first. The 1/4-28 bolt has a higher tensile strength than a 1/4-20 bolt of the same grade so there needs to be more thread engagement to allow more torque that breaks the bolt.

Going down this rabbit hole showed me that while a 1/4-28 bolt is stronger than a 1/4-20 having a higher tensile strength, the opposite is true for the threads in the mating component. I ran some more calculations with a Grade 2 bolt in 7075-T6 aluminum, and the shear area of internal threads for a 1/4-20 and 1/4-28 bolt, when compared at the same 0.173" of thread engagement, is 0.093 in^2 and 0.090 in^2 respectively.

In conclusion, fine thread fasteners are stronger than their coarse thread equivalents, but internal fine threads are weaker than their coarse thread equivalents for the same thread engagement length. For this reason, and since the thread length is fixed for the drain plug, I will retract my suggestion to tap with fine threads.

Added in edit:
I think I need to add some clarification here.

So if you're designing something that bolts together, and you have to or want to use a bolt of a certain diameter, and you have enough thickness in the part with the internal threads, you can improve the strength of the assembly by using fine threads over coarse threads.

Years ago when I was in engineering school and some professor made the remark that fine threads were stronger than coarse threads, I took it at face value and never bothered to investigate the nuances involved.
 
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TheOldHokie

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One of the great things about tractors is that they involve all manner of engineering principles. For many of us this results in a curiosity and we dig into things that we might have learned and/or forgotten a long time ago.

Anyway, to that end, I did dip into my Machinery's Handbook this morning and compared 1/4-20 to 1/4-28 bolts with similar and dissimilar materials, and looked at bolt/thread failure. The relevant section makes the point that failure can occur due to the bolt breaking, the bolt threads stripping or the internal threads stripping ... kind of obvious. It's not hard to calculate the amount of thread engagement required to "guarantee" that the bolt breaks rather than the external or internal threads shear.

I ran those calculations and for a 1/4-20 bolt there needs to be a minimum of 0.173" of thread engagement for the bolt to break. For a 1/4-28 bolt there needs to be 0.195" of thread engagement for the bolt to break first. The 1/4-28 bolt has a higher tensile strength than a 1/4-20 bolt of the same grade so there needs to be more thread engagement to allow more torque that breaks the bolt.

Going down this rabbit hole showed me that while a 1/4-28 bolt is stronger than a 1/4-20 having a higher tensile strength, the opposite is true for the threads in the mating component. I ran some more calculations with a Grade 2 bolt in 7075-T6 aluminum, and the shear area of internal threads for a 1/4-20 and 1/4-28 bolt, when compared at the same 0.173" of thread engagement, is 0.093 in^2 and 0.090 in^2 respectively.

In conclusion, fine thread fasteners are stronger than their coarse thread equivalents, but internal fine threads are weaker than their coarse thread equivalents for the same thread engagement length. For this reason, and since the thread length is fixed for the drain plug, I will retract my suggestion to tap with fine threads.

Added in edit:
I think I need to add some clarification here.

So if you're designing something that bolts together, and you have to or want to use a bolt of a certain diameter, and you have enough thickness in the part with the internal threads, you can improve the strength of the assembly by using fine threads over coarse threads.

Years ago when I was in engineering school and some professor made the remark that fine threads were stronger than coarse threads, I took it at face value and never bothered to investigate the nuances involved.
Which is why standard engineering practice is 1D to 1.5D length of engagement.

An engineering professor explaining the nuances:


Dan
 

mcmxi

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Which is why standard engineering practice is 1D to 1.5D length of engagement.
Unless you manufacture nuts I suppose.

The equation for minimum thread length engagement is shown below. The example I give above of 0.173" of thread engagement for a 1/4-20 bolt is well under 1D and that already has a small factor of safety built in. But these "rules of thumb" are useful for sure, and I'd be all warm and fuzzy with 3/8" of thread engagement for a 1/4-20 bolt.

le_calculation.jpg
 
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North Idaho Wolfman

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Or for those wuithout a handbook their 9th grade geometry textbook.

Fine threads have a longer helix length which offsets the reduced cross sectional area of an individual thread by putting more total cross sectional area in shear. In practice that principle, just like length of thread engagement, is limited by the rule of diminishining returns....

Dan
And here I was thinking my schooling days were done! 😁
 
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fried1765

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It has always been my understanding that generally coarse threads are preferred in soft materials such as aluminum. Coarse threads will resist stripping or ”pulling” threads when over torqued compared to fine threads.
True!
 

TheOldHokie

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Unless you manufacture nuts I suppose.

The equation for minimum thread length engagement is shown below. The example I give above of 0.173" of thread engagement for a 1/4-20 bolt is well under 1D and that already has a small factor of safety built in. But these "rules of thumb" are useful for sure, and I'd be all warm and fuzzy with 3/8" of thread engagement for a 1/4-20 bolt.

View attachment 127887
Engineers seldom build to minimums. I dont think you will find many engineering drawings with tapped hole depths at less than 1D. Those shallow deprhs would be used when some other feature interferes with the hole or its a through hole in a thin wall.

Returning to the subject of oil pan drain plugs most seem to use fine thread regardless of pan material. My guess is something other than pullout strength is a consideration..

Dan
 
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mcmxi

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Engineers seldom build to minimums. I dont think you will find many engineering drawings with tapped hole depths at less than 1D. Those shallow deprhs would be used when some other feature interferes with the hole or its a through hole in a thin wall.

Returning to the subject of oil pan drain plugs most seem to use fine thread regardless of pan material. My guess is something other than pullout strength is a consideration..

Dan
I'm not saying that anyone is designing to minimums. Just pointing out the theory for those of us hammering away in the garage.

I agree re drain plugs. Most do have a fine thread on them which is part of why it seems intuitive that fine threads would be stronger i.e. more resistant to stripping. I'm going to look into this some more since it interests me.
 

TheOldHokie

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I'm not saying that anyone is designing to minimums. Just pointing out the theory for those of us hammering away in the garage.

I agree re drain plugs. Most do have a fine thread on them which is part of why it seems intuitive that fine threads would be stronger i.e. more resistant to stripping. I'm going to look into this some more since it interests me.
Drain plugs see very little tension. My guess is vibration.

Steel screws in aluminum housings present a number of problems other than tensile/pullout strength. The aluminum threads are prone to stripping due to galling and corrosion. The threads in two of the tapped holes in the rear axke housing of my B7200 peeled right out with the screw during disassembly. The signs of corrosion was obviois. Two helicoils fixed it better than new. Probably should have done them all...

Dan
 
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WI_Hedgehog

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Returning to the subject of oil pan drain plugs most seem to use fine thread regardless of pan material. My guess is something other than pullout strength is a consideration..
In the motorcycle world it's very simple: continued vibration causes everything to walk itself loose if given the chance, so we thread-lock everything.*

In this case fine threads mean the bolt must turn "more" in order to reach a point of being "loose," at which point it can continue walking out pretty much freely. A single-use copper crush washer (or multi-use plastic derivative) keeps the bolt in a state of tension and high friction, resisting the tendency to turn out, which, due to the shallow pitch of the fine threads, isn't that much tendency/force to begin with. Course threads would have more pitch and put more torsional force on the bolt (meaning "it would want to turn itself out") and it would have to rotate less to get itself out of tension.

With that said, fine threads have more engagement and more frictional resistance to turning, so have less tendency to come loose from that perspective also.

---
I wonder how @Kat's coming along on the repair...

*Okay, not everything, but virtually everything.
 
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