Let'm die!

[Porcupine]

Not questioning knowledge of filtration at all! For the first few weeks after Jan 1 2020 the prevailing knowledge was that covid-19 wasn't airborne. hence the advice at that time was that masks were unnecessary. They learned more about it as time passed and are still learning. That is how science works

If it’s airborne, then a surgical mask or random piece of dirty cloth will not be effective.

If it’s carried in aerosolized droplets (sneeze/coughing), then there may be some benefit.

If the presumption is it’s airborne, the guidance is backwards.

There are numerous peer reviewed studies that demonstrate the general effectiveness of mask use among the general population. The guidance until now has ALWAYS been to recommend against, but somehow THIS virus is magically different.

The mask requirements are NOT based on good science.

 

[eserv]

If it’s airborne, then a surgical mask or random piece of dirty cloth will not be effective.

If it’s carried in aerosolized droplets (sneeze/coughing), then there may be some benefit.

If the presumption is it’s airborne, the guidance is backwards.

There are numerous peer reviewed studies that demonstrate the general effectiveness of mask use among the general population. The guidance until now has ALWAYS been to recommend against, but somehow THIS virus is magically different.

The mask requirements are NOT based on good science.

I will certainly not disagree with you that the way most people wear their masks and are constantly fumbling with them likely totally negates any value they might have. Not to mention almost all the masks available to us fit so poorly that they were worse than useless

 

[Porcupine]

I will certainly not disagree with you that the way most people wear their masks and are constantly fumbling with them likely totally negates any value they might have. Not to mention almost all the masks available to us fit so poorly that they were worse than useless

My personal favorite was when in the early days of this I saw a woman in mask, gloves, protective eyewear, and improvised head covering, come out of a truck stop carrying her lunch, sit down in her car, removed mask and eyewear, and proceed to eat lunch, while still wearing the gloves.

 

[jimh406]

My personal favorite was when in the early days of this I saw a woman in mask, gloves, protective eyewear, and improvised head covering, come out of a truck stop carrying her lunch, sit down in her car, removed mask and eyewear, and proceed to eat lunch, while still wearing the gloves.

Most people don’t think much in advance. I’ve seen people cough on their mask then put it on to go in a store with the hands they just coughed on. Even if the masks could stop a virus, it’s already on the outside of the mask and on their hands/clothes at that point. Breathe out spread the virus.

 

[Porcupine]

Most people don’t think much in advance. I’ve seen people cough on their mask then put it on to go in a store with the hands they just coughed on. Even if the masks could stop a virus, it’s already on the outside of the mask and on their hands/clothes at that point. Breathe out spread the virus.

I’ve also seen a few who pull their mask down, sneeze, then pull it back up.

Hmmmmm…seems he’s not understanding the point of this exercise.

 

[Freeheeler]

Can you show us the medical journal reviews that said dont wear a mask, wear a mask then wear 2 masks? Because thats what a doctor with up to date information told the public .

It's a timeline that involves evolving knowledge from various sources from various countries. Bottom line, masks DO work, and a quick trip to the Mayo clinic site can tell you in easy to read non scientific terms why. I started to specifically answer your question and it turned into a rather long explanation of filter theory and particle size. I ended up deleting all that because I'm not on this forum to give medical advice, I'm hear because I like to continue learning about my Kubota and tractors in general. You guys continue your regularly scheduled program and I'll go see patients and read about tractors. Be kind, rewind, and be safe out there.

 

[Henro]

I think I should apologize for choosing a thread title that caused people from either side to try to convince others that what they believe is the way things are or should be...the original title holds a value judgement.

Probably should have titled it:

Let'm die, OR, Let'm live

Probably still a poor choice, but implying that there may be risks on either side of the take it, or don't take it, choice.

It feels like these are the two main options.

One, if you take the vaccine you could suffer unexpected side affects...

The other, if you do not take the vaccine you may contract the virus, and take what follows...

So anyway, without trying to justify a decision, what is your personal feeling?

If you take the vaccination and possibly suffer side affects, is it worth the risk?

If you decline the vaccination and contract the virus, is it worth the risk?

My guess is that both sides will say yes in equal numbers.

So all our attempts to convince the other side that they are misguided are for not.

Regardless of which side we are on, I wish everyone the best!

 

[Porcupine]

I think I should apologize for choosing a thread title that caused people from either side to try to convince others that what they believe is the way things are or should be...the original title holds a value judgement.

Probably should have titled it:

Let'm die, OR, Let'm live

Probably still a poor choice, but implying that there may be risks on either side of the take it, or don't take it, choice.

It feels like these are the two main options.

One, if you take the vaccine you could suffer unexpected side affects...

The other, if you do not take the vaccine you may contract the virus, and take what follows...

So anyway, without trying to justify a decision, what is your personal feeling?

If you take the vaccination and possibly suffer side affects, is it worth the risk?

If you decline the vaccination and contract the virus, is it worth the risk?

My guess is that both sides will say yes in equal numbers.

So all our attempts to convince the other side that they are misguided are for not.

Regardless of which side we are on, I wish everyone the best!

Personally-I’m not getting it. If I were more at risk, I might consider it. I’m in good condition and have no known comorbidities.

My risk from CoViD is somewhat quantifiable, and the likelihood of a negative outcome is very low.

OTOH-A new treatment based on an new process, that has never before succeeded with no long term data produced a completely unknown level of risk.

I’ll take the known low risk solution.

For me it’s that simple.

 

[Henro]

Personally-I’m not getting it. If I were more at risk, I might consider it. I’m in good condition and have no known comorbidities.

My risk from CoViD is somewhat quantifiable, and the likelihood of a negative outcome is very low.

OTOH-A new treatment based on an new process, that has never before succeeded with no long term data produced a completely unknown level of risk.

I’ll take the known low risk solution.

For me it’s that simple.

I hear you but question how you determine with certainty your decision is the “known low risk decision”

But let’s let that go because all that question does is prolong the debate as to why one decision is better than another.

Bottom line one is you decided NOT getting the vaccination works for you.

Which implies you are willing to accept the risk/benefits of that decision.

Works for me.

 

[random]

Good read on a systematic review of evidence for the use of masks.

An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19

The science around the use of masks by the public to impede COVID-19 transmission is advancing rapidly. In this narrative review, we develop an analytical framework to examine mask usage, synthesizing the relevant literature to inform multiple areas: population impact, transmission...

www.pnas.org

In short, evidence is supportive, but not inconclusive. Meaning the worlds scientists really can’t tell if masks are making that much of a difference. We have had no good controlled trials that address the masks specifically while removing other variables (distancing, hand hygiene, etc).

To be clear, I do not support requiring mask wearing outside of a healthcare setting.

Interesting. It would appear to contradict https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

In our systematic review, we identified 10 RCTs that reported estimates of the effectiveness of face masks in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the community from literature published during 1946–July 27, 2018. In pooled analysis, we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks (RR 0.78, 95% CI 0.51–1.20; I2 = 30%, p = 0.25)

whereas PNAS says "It found that “overall masks were the best performing intervention across populations, settings and threats.”"

I'll have to spend more time on that PNAS article, first time I've seen it.

 

[random]

Regarding the vaccine: VAERS reports show more adverse effects from vaccines since the Covid vaccines became available than in all previous years combined.

It seems to me that, at a minimum, such a spike warrants close investigation, but I haven't heard of that being done. All I've heard has been dismissal of the spike as "people can self-report" or "more people are getting vaccinated". When a dataset changes that drastically, you look into what's going on.

 

[Jchonline]

Regarding the vaccine: VAERS reports show more adverse effects from vaccines since the Covid vaccines became available than in all previous years combined.

It seems to me that, at a minimum, such a spike warrants close investigation, but I haven't heard of that being done. All I've heard has been dismissal of the spike as "people can self-report" or "more people are getting vaccinated". When a dataset changes that drastically, you look into what's going on.

Simple explanation is reporting has improved. Systems are in place to easily report and monitor adverse events from COVID vaccines. The world's medical scientists are looking at it with a microscope. We would need data to confirm, but this is my theory.

 

[Jchonline]

Interesting. It would appear to contradict https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article



whereas PNAS says "It found that “overall masks were the best performing intervention across populations, settings and threats.”"

I'll have to spend more time on that PNAS article, first time I've seen it.

p= .025 is not statistically significant. I would not take much from the CDC article. Not only that but we don't know what types of masks were used. Most of what I have seen with real protections is N-95 or better. Everything else doesn't have a significant impact on reduction of illness or transmission. Some studies have shown cloth to actually be worse for illness, and only reduce incoming virus sized particulate by 3%.

 

[Henro]

I am starting to think I am a moron for thinking it reasonable for people to state they are willing to accept the risks of their decisions without trying to justify or convince others they are right in their choice.

LOL...but actually serious...

edit: this comment is not directed at anyone. Just a comment. Apologies for quoting someone. I realized later I could edit that out...

second edit. Just for the record, my wife and I, both our daughters, their husbands, and the two oldest of four grandkids are vaccinated. Obviously we are believers. But we respect others choices also. Just can’t wait until the under 12’s can get vaccinate..

To each his own.

 

[jimh406]

Henro, why are vaccinated people like you still fixated on if/why others may/may not get the vaccine? Not everyone I know is, btw. I know people who wish they wouldn’t have got the vaccine due to their minimal risk, but now they have longer term side effects. I know people who aren’t going to get the vaccine because they had Covid. There doesn’t seem to be any distinction on safe to be around vs not … just vaccinated vs not.

If masked worked, there would be no Covid in all of the areas that had mask mandates. None of the medical professionals would have gotten Covid. I think the most people can say is masks might work. Obviously, not wearing a mask won’t stop Covid. Is a mask better for everyone … not if people already have breathing issues.

Btw, several of the hard core maskers that I know got Covid including my sister and niece.

 

[Porcupine]

Even if you credit 100% faith in the reported numbers, statistically, based on my age, health, and lack of comorbidities etc. I have such a small statistical probability of any serious lasting effects from contracting the virus that the risk is negligible.

Were I to contract it and recover, according to most research I would enjoy a longer lasting, and possibly more robust immunity.

I like my chances. I do believe everyone should be free to make their own informed decision free of pressure and coercion.

Sadly, those are not conditions we currently enjoy.

 

[Henro]

Henro, why are vaccinated people like you still fixated on if/why others may/may not get the vaccine? …

I am not sure I am.

I asked a simple question. Why can’t you answer it?

Actually I answered my own question. I decided to take whatever risk might be associated with getting the vaccination. Are others not willing to state the same?

Make your choice, live with the results.

 

[Jchonline]

Henro, why are vaccinated people like you still fixated on if/why others may/may not get the vaccine? Not everyone I know is, btw. I know people who wish they wouldn’t have got the vaccine due to their minimal risk, but now they have longer term side effects. I know people who aren’t going to get the vaccine because they had Covid. There doesn’t seem to be any distinction on safe to be around vs not … just vaccinated vs not.

If masked worked, there would be no Covid in all of the areas that had mask mandates. None of the medical professionals would have gotten Covid. I think the most people can say is masks might work. Obviously, not wearing a mask won’t stop Covid. Is a mask better for everyone … not if people already have breathing issues.

Btw, several of the hard core maskers that I know got Covid including my sister and niece.

Masks in general are really a joke unless you have N-95 and keep it airtight as I previously mentioned and provided a systematic review link for. From a population health scientist perspective if say everyone wears a surgical type mask then maybe transmission is decreased by 5-10%…to them that means something. To us is sounds pretty useless.

 

[jimh406]

I decided to take whatever risk might be associated with getting the vaccination.

You are asking people to disclose their decision to some anonymous person on the internet. What do they get by telling you either way?

I’m pretty sure almost all of the people who own Kubotas have been taking responsibility for their actions. I would at least give them the benefit of a doubt.

 

[twomany]

If what i read and hear in the news is correct.

The vaccinated can still contract and transmit the virus. Some say more readily than the non-vaccinated.

and

The vaccine lessens the severity of the illness if one becomes infected.


I know dozens of people , family members included. that had very mild illness after contracting SAR-CoV-2 virus, even without the vaccine. No magic there.


It seems to me, that the vaccine produces "Non-symptomatic super spreaders." That spread the disease BECAUSE their own symptoms are mild. And the difficulty becomes, no one can predict the complications of another persons ill response.

Sort of like all the other "logic" used to shut down the world. It just doesn't make sense.

Sort of like further restrictions in Chicago to start AFTER 400,000 people attent the LollaPallooza event