Kubota d1005 not starting....fuel timing?

[calebkeay]

So I have a kubota b21 with a d1005 I bought from a friend of a friend. I was told it was not getting fuel and the key switch was broken. After checking it over and bypassing key switch with jumper wires I checked the following: solenoid - good, fuel and filter- good , fuel pump - questionable so I hooked up a 12v inline, glow plugs good (pulled and checked, red within 8 secs) the engine appeared pretty clean and did not look like it was ripped apart. I got it cranking and it would blow some white smoke initially then a puff of black smoke and attempt to run but only with starter spinning.
My buddy looked at it and thought it was most likely injection pump, on the assumption it was not getting sufficient fuel. So I bought a rebuilt pump from reputable fella on ebay. I also ordered a head gasket and pulled the head. Everything looked good, cylinders still had good cross hatching, valves were tight (seats), no piston slop, head looked clean and no visible cracks, head gasket was not blown, oh and valve clearance was good. I pulled front cover and checked timing, all the timing marks lined up properly.
Installed new injection pump, found small return spring on slide was disconnected. There were two shims on the old injection pump.
Put it all back together and was doing same thing, wanting to start but just kinda coughing. I pulled the top shim from injection pump and tried again, same result.
Anyone got any ideas? Seems like the fuel timing is out of whack.

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[Diydave]

Have you ever done a compression check on it? I'd do that first, to rule out, scientifically, that compression is not the problem...

Oh, and welcome to the forum...

 

[calebkeay]

I bought a compression kit from harbor freight that claimed it fit kubota engines but I'm guessing it's only larger engines as none of the fittings would work. I work on a lot of gas burners, so not too much experience with diagnosing diesels. Any idea where I could find a fitting or what I need to get a gauge on it? Would it be safe to say that if the compression was low it would be the rings as everything else looked to be in good shape? Machine has 1200 hrs on it, forgot that in original post.

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[North Idaho Wolfman]

In the compression kit it should have come with 2 different options for testing, injector or glow plug.

Which fitting are you using?

As far as Injection pump goes put the put the shim back under it.

When you installed the new pump did you bleed the injector lines?

 

[Tooljunkie]

Any chance glow plugs are inoperative?

 

[calebkeay]

I tried both glow plug and injector fitting, neither one fit. I believe the kit came with M10 glow plug adapter, think I need M8.
I bleed the system, cracked each line at injector and cranked till air bubbles were gone and only fuel came out.
I tested each glow plug individually. First with a test light on each. Then I hooked them to 12v when they were out and each one "glowed" in about 8 secs.


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[North Idaho Wolfman]

Your two most likely causes of it not starting are lack of proper compression (rent a diesel injection compression tester if your kit doesn't have the right adapters), or you have bad injector (I'll bet that is your issue), send them to be tested and or rebuilt.

 

[calebkeay]

Thanks for the quick reply and good advice. I plan on renting a gauge later this week, I travel for work so I'll be up in northern maine till Thursday.
If it comes down to injectors, any recommendations on where to send them and roughly how much that service will cost?

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[calebkeay]

Finally did compression check, front to rear (flywheel rearward) came up with 340, 340, 320. Seems sufficient to run, should I assume bad injectors and send them out? Thanks

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[100 td]

Allowable limit is 327, so yes enough there. While you may have stuffed injectors, they don't usually suddenly all stop/fail. I would put a gravity fed fuel hose direct to the fuel pump and try first, cant recall if the little mechanical pump has a hose that can be removed so you can feed directly into the pump. Bleed at pump and lines.

 

[100 td]

Did you try running it with the stop solenoid removed?

 

[calebkeay]

I did in my first round of attempting to diagnose. It is functioning and allowing fuel to run to injectors.

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[davesl708]

Blowing white smoke then black would indicate water in the fuel.
How old is the fuel? How many hours on the machine?
You mentioned the cylinders walls still have cross hatching. This would indicate low hours.

I would start with the simple things first. i.e. fuel, dirty injectors,
Timing and bad fuel pumps are not common problems with this engine.

 

[calebkeay]

I drained some fuel out through the line going to the fuel pump, didn't see water and there is not water in the filter housing. Againg, forgive my ignorance, but would the water seperate and be pretty obvious?
Guy I got it from said he had just filled it up, I got it late November. Not sure if there was old fuel in the tank still when he added more.
The fuel smells like regular diesel, it's not off road either.

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[calebkeay]

oh and 1200 hrs on the dash, sorry.

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[davesl708]

Does your machine have an electric feed pump to push fuel to the fuel pump?
My BX has one under the floor board and clicks when the key is on.

 

[ShaunRH]

The new injector pump adds some variables. That was probably a step too early in the process. If you marked the old pump and gear before you removed it, you might try reinstalling the old pump and actually testing the injectors yourself, at least visually. If you didn't mark it, then don't worry about doing this, just move forward and test the injectors with the existing pump (but you'll have no idea if the new pump is any good either!)

Frequently you can uninstall an injector and 'move' the hard line off to the side of the engine and reinstall the injector on the line. You turn the engine over and see if you get an atomized spray. If so, you probably should be able to start the engine (they should run on one cylinder if they are timed right.) You should test the other two the same way. If they are all atomizing the fuel, it should be enough to run.

At that point, it may be that the old pump was bad and the new one is not in proper timing. Make sure to do the initial timing procedure for the engine.

This is all 'field' troubleshooting stuff and not definitive at all. Like NIWolfman (and others) have said, you'll need full professional testing to identify issues with the injectors.

I'd also drain the system entirely and put in new fuel with some Seafoam. It wouldn't hurt to fill your injector pump with a 50/50 mix of Seafoam and diesel. That might have a shot at clearing any clogged up injectors.

While your at it, diagnose your stop solenoid to see if it's in working order, I know you said you removed it for testing, but still take a quick look at it.

Since you have the 12v power out, give the glow plugs a good check too.

If you've already done all this, there should be no reason that motor shouldn't be running.

One last thing... starter. If it's not spinning the engine fast enough, it won't start cold. I don't know if that motor has a decompression knob, if it does, pull it and let the motor spin faster, see if it wants to start then.

Those are about all the high points I can think of.

 

[Diydave]

I drained some fuel out through the line going to the fuel pump, didn't see water and there is not water in the filter housing. Againg, forgive my ignorance, but would the water seperate and be pretty obvious?
Guy I got it from said he had just filled it up, I got it late November. Not sure if there was old fuel in the tank still when he added more.
The fuel smells like regular diesel, it's not off road either.

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Ya sure the fuel you got is good? I can't tell you how many hours I've wasted, on "Diesel" that is actually 1/2 gas, because some numbnuts has refueled a tractor with gas, or filled up a gas can that actually had been half full of gas, before he dumped diesel on top of it...

I would drain the fuel, and while it's out check the bottom of the tank for hairballs, and make sure all the lines are clear, too...

 

[calebkeay]

Does your machine have an electric feed pump to push fuel to the fuel pump?
My BX has one under the floor board and clicks when the key is on.

it's gravity fed to a mechanical fuel pump. I bypassed mechanical with an in line 12v pump.

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[calebkeay]

The new injector pump adds some variables. That was probably a step too early in the process. If you marked the old pump and gear before you removed it, you might try reinstalling the old pump and actually testing the injectors yourself, at least visually. If you didn't mark it, then don't worry about doing this, just move forward and test the injectors with the existing pump (but you'll have no idea if the new pump is any good either!)

Frequently you can uninstall an injector and 'move' the hard line off to the side of the engine and reinstall the injector on the line. You turn the engine over and see if you get an atomized spray. If so, you probably should be able to start the engine (they should run on one cylinder if they are timed right.) You should test the other two the same way. If they are all atomizing the fuel, it should be enough to run.

At that point, it may be that the old pump was bad and the new one is not in proper timing. Make sure to do the initial timing procedure for the engine.

This is all 'field' troubleshooting stuff and not definitive at all. Like NIWolfman (and others) have said, you'll need full professional testing to identify issues with the injectors.

I'd also drain the system entirely and put in new fuel with some Seafoam. It wouldn't hurt to fill your injector pump with a 50/50 mix of Seafoam and diesel. That might have a shot at clearing any clogged up injectors.

While your at it, diagnose your stop solenoid to see if it's in working order, I know you said you removed it for testing, but still take a quick look at it.

Since you have the 12v power out, give the glow plugs a good check too.

If you've already done all this, there should be no reason that motor shouldn't be running.

One last thing... starter. If it's not spinning the engine fast enough, it won't start cold. I don't know if that motor has a decompression knob, if it does, pull it and let the motor spin faster, see if it wants to start then.

Those are about all the high points I can think of.

Any recommendations on finding an initial timing procedure? I printed a manual for d series kubotas from kubotabooks.com but it was more of a remove replace instruction set.
I will drain all the fuel and try injectors individually.
Stop solenoid and glow plugs are functioning.


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