In search of a better truck for towing the M6060 and folding cutter.

[Bmyers]

Thanks for the feedback and the link. Awesome truck and trailer there! I like how much further back the rear axles are on gooseneck trailers with ramps. This is really what I need due to the length of the M6060 and RC3712.

Because of their setup, I went with the Ford F250 with the 6.7 HO and the max tow package (plus, in full disclosure, we got a decent deal on it, which made more of a difference than anything).

I'm waiting for our weather to break and I'm looking forward to doing some towing with my truck and the seeing how it performs. I know on paper it is rated at 500HP, 1,200 lb-ft of torque and GCVW 31,000 with a conventional tow rating of 22,000lbs. So, it should handle any of the trailers I have access to which range from 7K trailer to 14K trailer.

 

[Like Tractors]

Hmmm .... good questions. The top speed with the factory rear end is 58mph but I couldn't tell you what the rpm is. I'll look for the engine label without raising the cab, but if I need to raise the cab it'll have to wait until the spring.

I did look up dynamometer test data I have on a 1997 GMC 6500 with a Cat 3116 rated at 210 Horse Power, corrected rear wheel Horse Power was 191 HP @ 2150 RPM, 557 Ft Lb @1500 RPM. Calculated to flywheel values gives 225 HP and 655 Ft Lb. The moral of the story is that often times these engines deliver more power than advertised in that era. I have measured it many times.

 

[BAP]

Get the salesman or mechanic there to crawl under the truck and get a picture of the plate on the transmission that has all the data about the transmission. It’s just like the serial number plate on the door of the truck but it’s the one that the transmission manufacturer puts on the transmission. That will tell you which version of the transmission you have so you can figure out the gearing. If you are using this to move your tractor in a 20-30 mile radius from home, then you don’t need a speed demon to do it. You need a truck capable and safe to do it. Most people will tell you that you need more power because everyone needs more power to compensate for lack of driving capability. Learn how to shift the vehicle properly and you will find that you can move a mountain with it. Just might not be as fast as some, but then you won’t have as much money invested to pay off as others do. Personally, in a truck like that, and I have hundreds of thousands of miles driving 6 wheelers and 10 wheelers farming, I would prefer a 5spd with 2spd rear end or a 8LL Eaton. Never driven 1 with a 7spd.

 

[BBFarmer]

So something like this truck?

Austin's Auto Sales

Austin's Auto Sales

www.austinsautosales.com

That's a goodin if takin care of. Keep a good frond end under her and atleast down here in the south, they can give minor a/c issues.

No el cheapo front end parts....especially the track bar on the 4wds.

And when faced with a/c issues best to hit it all in one shot. They s@$t evaporators regularly round these parts. Dash comes out in less than 45 min.

I'm kinda diggin the 650 though lol.

 

[jyoutz]

Well, that doesn't seem like a lot of horsepower or a lot of gears, unless the rear axle is a two speed axle. I haven't towed with a truck like that, I will defer to a towing expert, engines I know. One caution with that Cummins ISB engine is injection pump failures, especially if they have been subjected to low supply pressure. The turbocharger is a conventional design that employs a wastegate , pretty trouble free.

I have done towing with my 2000 F250 that measures 300 horsepower on my SuperFlo dynamometer, pulling a car hauler trailer with a 1997 F250 on the trailer from Rock Springs WY to home, that just plain walks the hills that that load like it's nobodies business. I am sort of a fan of the old 7.3L International built engine. I even have a Chevrolet version of the ole 7.3L.

The Cummins injection pump failure issues were related to the pre-2003 24 valve 5.9 engines, not the common rail versions made starting in 2003.

 

[McMXi]

Yes! That one's a beauty and not too many miles on it considering it is 20 years old. If it has good maintenance records and a clean CarFax I'd jump on it. Price is high...almost no depreciation in 20 years...but as I said, they are in demand because taken care of, they'll last forever.

Copy the VIN # and paste it into this web site and it will give you the full build sheet:

FCA RAM

fcagroup.my.site.com

The truck was in the Tacoma, WA area. I filled out an online form late yesterday afternoon on their website to see if it was still available. Around 8.30pm last night I received a call (didn't answer) and listened to the phone message that was left. The salesman stated that the truck had just been sold but that they have other options. Bait and switch I reckon!

 

[McMXi]

I did look up dynamometer test data I have on a 1997 GMC 6500 with a Cat 3116 rated at 210 Horse Power, corrected rear wheel Horse Power was 191 HP @ 2150 RPM, 557 Ft Lb @1500 RPM. Calculated to flywheel values gives 225 HP and 655 Ft Lb. The moral of the story is that often times these engines deliver more power than advertised in that era. I have measured it many times.

Thanks for the information. The smart move might be to wait until better weather and then load up the 22ft tilt trailer to max capacity and see how the M1078 does pulling it, but I'm not overly optimistic. The truck weighs 17,000lb and is limited to a payload of 5,000lb and loaded trailer weight of 12,000lb. I'm really liking the idea of a dump truck since it would make the 16ft dump trailer redundant and I could sell it and most likely get back the $10k that it cost me.

Also, the F-650 has a curb weight of around 9,000lb which is almost half the weight of the M1078, and it has a max payload of 17,000lb. This makes it far more useful in terms of picking up a load of gravel or rocks. Yep, I'm really starting to move away from the idea of using the M1078 in favor of a suitable dump truck. Selling the M1078 and the dump trailer would really help when it comes to financing a dump truck.

 

[McMXi]

If you are using this to move your tractor in a 20-30 mile radius from home, then you don’t need a speed demon to do it. You need a truck capable and safe to do it.

Pulling tractors and implements on trailers, in addition to hauling wood, gravel, rocks and dirt within a 50 mile radius is the objective, so as long as I can safely pull a load at 60mph I'm good with that.

My F250 with chip and programmer is plenty fast with no trouble getting to 100mph, and if I upgraded the transmission and possibly the gears ratios in the differentials, I could improve the experience of towing 10,000lb loads which is more appropriate for that truck.

 

[JasonW]

Pulling tractors and implements on trailers, in addition to hauling wood, gravel, rocks and dirt within a 50 mile radius is the objective, so as long as I can safely pull a load at 60mph I'm good with that.

My F250 with chip and programmer is plenty fast with no trouble getting to 100mph, and if I upgraded the transmission and possibly the gears ratios in the differentials, I could improve the experience of towing 10,000lb loads which is more appropriate for that truck.

Another option is to manual swap your current truck. Plenty of information about swapping a ZF6 transmission.

 

[RCW]

The truck was in the Tacoma, WA area. I filled out an online form late yesterday afternoon on their website to see if it was still available. Around 8.30pm last night I received a call (didn't answer) and listened to the phone message that was left. The salesman stated that the truck had just been sold but that they have other options. Bait and switch I reckon!

Anymore it's hard to discern one way or the other. Stuff is advertised and sold electronically so much quicker than in the "old days."

Certainly could have been a Bait and Switch. Could have also been a Salesman doing what a Salesman does (i.e., "I have other options").

I was thinking of you this morning. I backed into the sand pile at the local Highway Department for a couple buckets. Backed in next to an F750 single axle with dump box and angle snowplow. I think the other two were F450 with utility boxes. Guessing all three of similar vintage to the F650 truck you were looking at.

You've got some contributors to your thread that are very knowledgeable about trucks.

Readily admit I'm not one of them.

I know you're looking at your M1078 as an option.

I think the F650 was more truck than you were looking for, but had promise for your purposes.

If the M1078 doesn't pan out, would you reconsider another F650 or similar option?

Obviously, opportunity dictates everything.....

Just curious where you think your direction may be going forward?

 

[McMXi]

Another option is to manual swap your current truck. Plenty of information about swapping a ZF6 transmission.

My first Super Duty had the 6-speed ZF transmission. It was an '02 F-350 XLT with an 8ft bed. I remember buying it new from a dealer in CA, and even with shipping to Hawaii it was "only" $34k. I sold it to a fisherman with a big boat two years later for the same amount. Dumb move to be honest.

 

[McMXi]

Just curious where you think your direction may be going forward?

My current direction, or at least the path that I find the most appealing is to find a dump truck capable of pulling a gooseneck and bumper pull trailer, and hauling wood, gravel and dirt. Also, to sell the 16ft PJ dump trailer and possibly the M1078 but keep the F-250 with the idea to make a couple of upgrades to it. Perhaps two to three years from now I'd revisit the idea of buying a late model 6.7L Super Duty.

I like that dump trucks have such an amazing capacity compared to most. Take that 16ft dump trailer for example. The bed is 16ft x 7ft x 2ft (solid sides) and I also have 2ft steel extensions with expanded steel. If I were to fill up that bed with gravel i.e. to the top of the solid 2ft sides, that would be 224 cu. ft. (8.3 cu. yds.) of gravel which would weigh something like 23,500 lb. The trailer has a GVWR of 15,000 lb and weighs close to 5,000lb so can only haul about 3-1/2 cubic yards compared to 6 yards (17,000lb) with a dump truck. The local gravel yard is a 25 minute drive, so I'd much rather make that trip and pick up 6 yards each time than make twice as many trips with the dump trailer, which they typically overfill by the way. Twice I've gone there for 3 cubic yards only to have them dump an entire loader bucket and really overload the trailer.

 

[hedgerow]

I will throw out my thoughts. I know DOT is fed but every state is a little different. In my state Nebraska you have two ways you can plate that F-650. Farm or commerical the way to go personal is it would have to be a RV. This truck is not a toter. If you can't go farm your going to have CDL with a air brake endorsment. Insurance in this state on that truck with commerical plates would be high. A lot of the smaller construction guys in this state have gotten rid of there single axle dump trucks because of the CDL'S and insurance and have went to 3/4 and or one ton trucks and dump trailers to fly under the radar. Check all this out before you buy the F-650. I like the F-650 but if it doesn't have air ride in the rear I would forget it and go down the road. I have run hundreds of thousands of miles pulling all sorts of trailers with a single axle one and half and two ton trucks. Started out in high school driving a F-850 with a 534 gas engine pulling a 45 ft floor live stock trailer. They work great its nice to have the extra brakes. I would never have another one with out air ride in rear and a air ride seat is a bonus. That F-650 with the 5.9 and seven is a nice set up. I have known several ranchers that had them pulling triple axle goose neck stock trailers and get along fine. They don't win any races but they get there and back. I know a few that have the 8.3 and like them a little better. A few guys I know have Top Kicks with the Cat that you have in your M1078 and get along fine with them also, Not every farmer, rancher has a new hundred thousand dollar pickup to haul cattle but you see them at the sale barn.

 

[McMXi]

I will throw out my thoughts. I know DOT is fed but every state is a little different. In my state Nebraska you have two ways you can plate that F-650. Farm or commerical the way to go personal is it would have to be a RV. This truck is not a toter. If you can't go farm your going to have CDL with a air brake endorsment. Insurance in this state on that truck with commerical plates would be high. A lot of the smaller construction guys in this state have gotten rid of there single axle dump trucks because of the CDL'S and insurance and have went to 3/4 and or one ton trucks and dump trailers to fly under the radar. Check all this out before you buy the F-650. I like the F-650 but if it doesn't have air ride in the rear I would forget it and go down the road. I have run hundreds of thousands of miles pulling all sorts of trailers with a single axle one and half and two ton trucks. Started out in high school driving a F-850 with a 534 gas engine pulling a 45 ft floor live stock trailer. They work great its nice to have the extra brakes. I would never have another one with out air ride in rear and a air ride seat is a bonus. That F-650 with the 5.9 and seven is a nice set up. I have known several ranchers that had them pulling triple axle goose neck stock trailers and get along fine. They don't win any races but they get there and back. I know a few that have the 8.3 and like them a little better. A few guys I know have Top Kicks with the Cat that you have in your M1078 and get along fine with them also, Not every farmer, rancher has a new hundred thousand dollar pickup to haul cattle but you see them at the sale barn.

Thanks for the post, lots of good information for sure and I'm looking into CDL requirements in MT. I'm going to throw this 2020 low mileage F-550 6.7L 4x2 truck into the mix. This has DPF, EGR and DEF of course, and is close to twice the cost of the F-650.

Used 2020 Ford F-550 Dump Truck for sale in Fontana, CA | #V65801

Used 2020 Ford F-550 Regular Cab DRW RWD, Dump Truck (Stock #V65801) for sale for just $54,000. Call Sunrise Ford Fontana at (909) 787-2728 or visit us at 16005 Valley Blvd., Fontana, CA for more information!

sunrisefleetsales.com

Curb weight: 7,500lb
GVWR: 19,500lb
GCWR: 32,500lb
Max load: 12,750lb
Max trailer weight conventional tow: 18,500lb
Max trailer weight gooseneck tow: 23,900lb

 

[Poohbear]

If I understand it right you will need a CDL to drive it just because it has air brakes.
You will have to jump all those hoops too.

Depends on what state. I have a Texas class A nonCDL so I can legally tow our 45 foot toyhualer which with my Chevy crew DURAMAX dually I have a combined GVWR rateing over 34000 lbs . Here I can drive any vehicle or combination even with air brakes ( AB’s not on non-cdl test even if testing vehicle has them). Even doubles but not triples as long as no compensation

 

[jyoutz]

Thanks for the post, lots of good information for sure and I'm looking into CDL requirements in MT. I'm going to throw this 2020 low mileage F-550 6.7L 4x2 truck into the mix. This has DPF, EGR and DEF of course, and is close to twice the cost of the F-650.

Used 2020 Ford F-550 Dump Truck for sale in Fontana, CA | #V65801

Used 2020 Ford F-550 Regular Cab DRW RWD, Dump Truck (Stock #V65801) for sale for just $54,000. Call Sunrise Ford Fontana at (909) 787-2728 or visit us at 16005 Valley Blvd., Fontana, CA for more information!

sunrisefleetsales.com

Curb weight: 7,500lb
GVWR: 18,500lb
GCWR: 32,500lb
Max load: 11,000lb
Max trailer weight conventional tow: 18,500lb
Max trailer weight gooseneck tow: 23,600lb

I guess it depends on your business plan and uses. If you need a dump truck, this looks pretty clean, but then you’ll no doubt have to keep your F-250 because this isn’t a run around truck. Also it has the 6.7 powerstroke, not a Cummins. I suggest that you research the maintenance and repairs on that engine. Not at all cheap or as trouble free as the Cummins. My neighbor who is a dealership general manager told me that those are a minimum $1k whenever they roll into the shop, often for minor repairs and maintenance. He manages a Ford dealership; he drives a Ram Cummins for his personal truck.

 

[McMXi]

I guess it depends on your business plan and uses. If you need a dump truck, this looks pretty clean, but then you’ll no doubt have to keep your F-250 because this isn’t a run around truck. Also it has the 6.7 powerstroke, not a Cummins. I suggest that you research the maintenance and repairs on that engine. Not at all cheap or as trouble free as the Cummins. My neighbor who is a dealership general manager told me that those are a minimum $1k whenever they roll into the shop, often for minor repairs and maintenance. He manages a Ford dealership; he drives a Ram Cummins for his personal truck.

Right now the 2001 F-650 is in the lead given the "low" investment cost, simplicity of the engine, and my intended low mileage use. I'm still waiting on my friend in ID to stop by the dealership. If it sells before he gets a chance to look then I'll find something else.

 

[McMXi]

I think this information might be useful. As @dirtydeed stated, the flow chart that I made and posted earlier only pertains to commercial use.

MT has this definition of a commercial vehicle in the CDL Manual found here.

Commercial Motor Vehicle (CMV) means a vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle: has a gross combination weight rating of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) inclusive of a towed unit with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds); or has a gross vehicle rating of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more); or is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or is of any size and is used in the transportation of materials found to be hazardous for the purpose of the Hazardous Materials Transport Act and which require the motor vehicle to be placarded under the Hazardous Materials Regulations.


The FMCSA website has a checklist to determine whether or not a CDL (CLP) is required. This is the Federal Law regarding personal use. The state of Montana doesn't make any Federal Law more restrictive or prohibitive, so I don't see any issues pulling an 18,000lb trailer with an F-650 for a non-commercial purpose.

How to Determine if a Commercial Motor Vehicle Driver Transporting Personal Property is Required to Use an ELD or Have a CDL

If a safety official stops a driver transporting animals, vehicles or other personal property, FMCSA recommends that the driver explain that the transportation is non-business related.

FMCSA recommends the driver use the following questions to determine if a CDL, ELD, or paper records of duty status (RODS) are required:


1. Does the vehicle or vehicle combination have a GVWR, GVW, GCWR or GCW (whichever is greater) of 10,001 pounds or more?

If NO, then the HOS and CDL regulations DO NOT apply.

2. Does the vehicle or vehicle combination have a GVWR, GVW, GCWR or GCW (whichever is greater) of 10,001 pounds or more, but less than 26,001 pounds?

If YES, the individual MAY need an ELD to complete the RODS. However, a CDL is NOT required.

3. Does the vehicle or vehicle combination have a GVWR, GVW, GCWR or GCW (whichever is greater) of 26,001 pounds or more?

If YES, the driver MAY need an ELD to complete the RODS and a CDL MAY be required.

4. Is the vehicle being used for the occasional, recreational transportation of personal property for a non-business purpose, such as taking a personally owned animal, vehicle or other personal property to a show when the underlying business is unrelated?

If YES, the HOS regulations DO NOT apply. A CDL is NOT required unless the licensing state requires it. Note: Drivers must verify the licensing requirements in their home States.

 

[dirtydeed]

You can own and drive an 18 wheeler w/o a CDL...if its for personal use.

Saw a video not long ago of a Youtuber with a 1 ton dually hauling an empty gooseneck to go pick up another truck. He got pulled over/cited/out of commission on the spot. Had to "phone -a- friend" with valid CDL to come get his rig. He had captured the whole thing on video.

He couldn't figure out why he was being stopped with an empty trailer. Officer reminded him that its not the weight (or lack thereof) that you're pulling (he was empty), but rather the weight "Rating". That's why they use that "R" behind GVW"R" and GCW"R".

The nail in his coffin was that he had a sticker on his trucks rear window maybe on the doors too, (I can't remember) of his own YouTube channel....

Yep...that made him "Commercial".



I wanted to get my CDL but waited too long to do it. The rules changed here in PA (2022) as now you have to attend a school to do it. I think its 160 hrs of class time before you can apply for a permit.

 

[McMXi]

You can own and drive an 18 wheeler w/o a CDL...if its for personal use.

Saw a video not long ago of a Youtuber with a 1 ton dually hauling an empty gooseneck to go pick up another truck. He got pulled over/cited/out of commission on the spot. Had to "phone -a- friend" with valid CDL to come get his rig. He had captured the whole thing on video.

He couldn't figure out why he was being stopped with an empty trailer. Officer reminded him that its not the weight (or lack thereof) that you're pulling (he was empty), but rather the weight "Rating". That's why they use that "R" behind GVW"R" and GCW"R".

The nail in his coffin was that he had a sticker on his trucks rear window maybe on the doors too, (I can't remember) of his own YouTube channel....

Yep...that made him "Commercial".



I wanted to get my CDL but waited too long to do it. The rules changed here in PA (2022) as now you have to attend a school to do it. I think its 160 hrs of class time before you can apply for a permit.

I had a CDL when I lived in Hawaii and worked for a diving construction/salvage company and the Honolulu Shipyard, but gave it up. MT now has a similar path for a new CDL and I'm not about to get into that.

There's no doubt that every state has different amounts of enforcement and MT takes a practical rather than a fiduciary approach to this. There's a weigh station a couple of miles from me and they're pulling over logging trucks all day long, and they should be since some of those rigs look like they're about to fall apart. MDT doesn't seem to hassle non-commercial drivers at all though. The only person I know of (as told to me by his daughter) that got into trouble pulling a trailer in a non-commercial application was a farmer running off-road diesel in his truck. He was hauling bales and had one fall off the trailer, police showed up, MDT showed up, and one thing lead to another and his fuel tank was dipped. He got a $1,500 fine out of that.