In frame honing of good bores.

[Fordtech86]

the saw was covered in oil and all the sawdust that sticks to bar oil...

I noted that… don’t post pics of my chainsaws

Ive enjoyed the thread too, waiting for the video of it running. And I have no doubt, it will be.

Kubotafreak, what type of grease gun did you use to lay that bead? If thats a hand pump thats impressive

 

[kubotafreak]

I noted that… don’t post pics of my chainsaws

Ive enjoyed the thread too, waiting for the video of it running. And I have no doubt, it will be.

Kubotafreak, what type of grease gun did you use to lay that bead? If thats a hand pump thats impressive

M18 Milwaukee, and lock and lube adapters.

 

[DustyRusty]

Mega years ago, when I was a kid, I tore down a Chevy 265 CI V8 engine that needed rings. Honed the cylinders, washed everything down with kerosene, and brake cleaner, the old stuff that would remove your skin! Those new rings didn't last but 20,000 miles before it started burning oil big time. I just couldn't figure out what I did wrong until I spoke to an old-time mechanic who showed me where I went wrong. He had an old disassembled engine and handed me the hone to hone out one of the cylinders. I honed it till I got a good cross-hatch pattern in the bore. Then he told me to clean it the way that I did with my engine, and after another half hour, I was done, and it looked perfect. He then told me to get the cotton cloth from the bathroom and put some clean oil on it, and rub it on the side of the cylinder and tell him what I observed. The cloth with the oil on it was blackish, and I just didn't understand, so he explained that the crosshatch pattern held minute particles of steel in them, and no amount of cleaning with kerosene or brake cleaner would remove them. He said that is why they put the engine blocks into a soapy water engine washing machine to get all those minute metal particles out of the engine. If they were left in the bore, they would lead to premature ring failure. I have used this many times to show people that you have to wash a cylinder after honing, whether it is an engine or a brake cylinder. I believe that this will apply to this method of cleaning up the walls of a diesel engine. I was going to post this when the subject first came up, but decided to see if anyone else would mention this first. I am not an experienced engine builder, but I did learn an important lesson from someone that was. I learned a lot from that old guy and the one thing that I learned that day was that I didn't know as much as I thought that I did. Many many decades later, I am still learning from others that know more than I know about a lot of subjects.

 

[TheOldHokie]

Mega years ago, when I was a kid, I tore down a Chevy 265 CI V8 engine that needed rings. Honed the cylinders, washed everything down with kerosene, and brake cleaner, the old stuff that would remove your skin! Those new rings didn't last but 20,000 miles before it started burning oil big time. I just couldn't figure out what I did wrong until I spoke to an old-time mechanic who showed me where I went wrong. He had an old disassembled engine and handed me the hone to hone out one of the cylinders. I honed it till I got a good cross-hatch pattern in the bore. Then he told me to clean it the way that I did with my engine, and after another half hour, I was done, and it looked perfect. He then told me to get the cotton cloth from the bathroom and put some clean oil on it, and rub it on the side of the cylinder and tell him what I observed. The cloth with the oil on it was blackish, and I just didn't understand, so he explained that the crosshatch pattern held minute particles of steel in them, and no amount of cleaning with kerosene or brake cleaner would remove them. He said that is why they put the engine blocks into a soapy water engine washing machine to get all those minute metal particles out of the engine. If they were left in the bore, they would lead to premature ring failure. I have used this many times to show people that you have to wash a cylinder after honing, whether it is an engine or a brake cylinder. I believe that this will apply to this method of cleaning up the walls of a diesel engine. I was going to post this when the subject first came up, but decided to see if anyone else would mention this first. I am not an experienced engine builder, but I did learn an important lesson from someone that was. I learned a lot from that old guy and the one thing that I learned that day was that I didn't know as much as I thought that I did. Many many decades later, I am still learning from others that know more than I know about a lot of subjects.

That's something most engine overhaul manuals emphasize,

Dan

 

[kubotafreak]

Mega years ago, when I was a kid, I tore down a Chevy 265 CI V8 engine that needed rings. Honed the cylinders, washed everything down with kerosene, and brake cleaner, the old stuff that would remove your skin! Those new rings didn't last but 20,000 miles before it started burning oil big time. I just couldn't figure out what I did wrong until I spoke to an old-time mechanic who showed me where I went wrong. He had an old disassembled engine and handed me the hone to hone out one of the cylinders. I honed it till I got a good cross-hatch pattern in the bore. Then he told me to clean it the way that I did with my engine, and after another half hour, I was done, and it looked perfect. He then told me to get the cotton cloth from the bathroom and put some clean oil on it, and rub it on the side of the cylinder and tell him what I observed. The cloth with the oil on it was blackish, and I just didn't understand, so he explained that the crosshatch pattern held minute particles of steel in them, and no amount of cleaning with kerosene or brake cleaner would remove them. He said that is why they put the engine blocks into a soapy water engine washing machine to get all those minute metal particles out of the engine. If they were left in the bore, they would lead to premature ring failure. I have used this many times to show people that you have to wash a cylinder after honing, whether it is an engine or a brake cylinder. I believe that this will apply to this method of cleaning up the walls of a diesel engine. I was going to post this when the subject first came up, but decided to see if anyone else would mention this first. I am not an experienced engine builder, but I did learn an important lesson from someone that was. I learned a lot from that old guy and the one thing that I learned that day was that I didn't know as much as I thought that I did. Many many decades later, I am still learning from others that know more than I know about a lot of subjects.

Very good point. A very skilled mentor mechanic indeed. I can easily say I've toasted machines in my earlier years. Not specifically related to contamination, but poor assembly. I am curious if you have since tried using a hone with some thinner cutting fluid. Something more solvent based? Oil like 10w or thicker, gets really gummy on the stones. If oil is used I would have to stop two or three times and wash the stones down. This is why I personally stopped many years ago using motor oil, and switched to wd40. The washout/lubrication, I find much easier to work with. I also feel I was actually wanting deeper valleys, with fewer rotations of the hone.

 

[kubotafreak]

Well, naysayers rejoice! I ran into a little snag. Looks like you will get your wish. The process brought back two of the cylinders, but one appears to be dead. My guess is either the rings are drawn up or it has worse damage(cracked ring lands). So I ordered some parts, and will update the build.

If your wondering the readings I got at (34' ambient) cylinder 1 320psi, cylinder 2 110psi, cylinder 3 340psi. I would have expected them to go up even more with run in, and valve adjustment. With a dead piston I have to tear deeper. Had they all three been over mid 300 I would have proceeded as is. Sorry to disappoint those interested. The decrease in cylinder 2 tells me the rings don't appear to have any tension, or is cracked for whatever reason. I did purchase one piston, three sets of rings, lower metal, and oil pickup oring. Took all of 30 min to pull head back off, and is ready to go. So far net extra cost: 0 gaskets, and 2 hours of my time. Stay tuned!

 

[William1]

Basic deglazing can be accomplished with a Green Scotch Brite, followed by wiping with ATF (Auto Trans Fluid) and clean towels. Scrubbing with soapy water as well. When final wiping with ATF is done with a clean, white towel, the towel should be clean after wiping, confirming all contaminants are removed.

Sorry about the stuck ring. Be sure to use a bore gauge now and confirm the bore is consistent (not oval or tapered) and within spec.

 

[Donystoy]

Well, naysayers rejoice! I ran into a little snag. Looks like you will get your wish. The process brought back two of the cylinders, but one appears to be dead. My guess is either the rings are drawn up or it has worse damage(cracked ring lands). So I ordered some parts, and will update the build.

If your wondering the readings I got at (34' ambient) cylinder 1 320psi, cylinder 2 110psi, cylinder 3 340psi. I would have expected them to go up even more with run in, and valve adjustment. With a dead piston I have to tear deeper. Had they all three been over mid 300 I would have proceeded as is. Sorry to disappoint those interested. The decrease in cylinder 2 tells me the rings don't appear to have any tension, or is cracked for whatever reason. I did purchase one piston, three sets of rings, lower metal, and oil pickup oring. Took all of 30 min to pull head back off, and is ready to go. So far net extra cost: 0 gaskets, and 2 hours of my time. Stay tuned!

Now that I understand more as to what you were trying to accomplish, I agree that you did the right approach by tackling the head first. Although not heard of much today it was common practice back in the day to do a "valve job" on a gas engine to remedy low compression issues.
I was reading that some folks have been able to remove the oil pan by removing the front axle plus other items in the way. I will check my tractor to understand why the axle removal is required. This I read gives you access to remove the pistons but not the crankshaft. Not sure this is the way I would go as the only engine that I did in place this way was a killer on the back. This was on a 1974 dodge van with a 318. I replaced the crankshaft and all bearings plus the oil pump.
Good luck on your project.

 

[Mark_BX25D]

The pistons should of been pulled.

Should HAVE.

 

[kubotafreak]

Well got the pistons pulled today. Looks like broken ring lands galore. The center one was falling apart, with cracked rings, and the outer two have a hairline crack. Rings themselves dimension wise, looked good. Plenty of moly plating still left on the primary compression ring. Luckily the cylinders are fine. I assume the prior owner liked starting fluid... I figure that is what caused the detonation to cause the ring land failure.



No signs of abrasives from the prior honing. The grease trap works! Very little if any grease, was left as most was dissolved by the wd40. So I take that as a success for the attempt. It would have worked had the prior owner been nicer to the little tractor.
Parts on order, and will update once they arrive. Little guy is getting expensive.

 

[Daferris]

Well it was worth a try... Sometimes you just have to open the wallet more than planed...

 

[RCW]

‘Freak - thanks much for the project. Look forward to its reassembly.

While in situ didn’t pan out, my bet is you’ll have a usable engine in short order…..

Best wishes!

 

[kubotafreak]

Its a shame, very little skirt wear. Primary ring is indeed edge treated.
Pistons are made by (Mahle) Izumi.

 

[JohnDB]

Its a shame, very little skirt wear. Primary ring is indeed edge treated.
Pistons are made by (Mahle) Izumi.

Thanks for the superb photos. Always interested to see what engine parts look like. Even after low hours.

 

[hagrid]

Its a shame, very little skirt wear. Primary ring is indeed edge treated.
Pistons are made by (Mahle) Izumi. View attachment 74218 View attachment 74219 View attachment 74220 View attachment 74220 View attachment 74221 View attachment 74222

Need to see the bearing from the upside of the big end of the broken piston, plz.

 

[lynnmor]

Now that the engine bottom is getting a proper fix, may I suggest that the valves and seats be ground? Lapping is not a proper valve job.

 

[kubotafreak]

Need to see the bearing from the upside of the big end of the broken piston, plz.

Center of the three, no better, no worse than the other two. All had polished/worn coating. Most of that was due to lack of oil service. Slight taper, but they all had the same degree. The lower bearing halves do not indicate taper. It is probably related to how the older idi engines fire. The flame front is not centered like on a direct injected.

 

[kubotafreak]

Now that the engine bottom is getting a proper fix, may I suggest that the valves and seats be ground? Lapping is not a proper valve job.

Ill pass, the head cleaned up nice enough for this project. Wait till final compression numbers, if you are concerned with my valve cleaning.

 

[lynnmor]

Ill pass, the head cleaned up nice enough for this project. Wait till final compression numbers, if you are concerned with my valve cleaning.

I'm not concerned with "valve cleaning", valves should have the correct angle and the seats should have the correct width and angle where they contact the valve. Lapping can only make those things worse.

 

[kubotafreak]

I'm not concerned with "valve cleaning", valves should have the correct angle and the seats should have the correct width and angle where they contact the valve. Lapping can only make those things worse.

You know, maybe you can start a thread on how to do “proper valve jobs”. Id really like to see it. Talk is cheap, and we all like pictures.