Hydraulic outlets on B2601 for log splitter

[PaulL]

I believe SUDT is synthetic, UDT is mineral. So if the fluid you have is synthetic it's probably something like SUDT by another name. I believe what we get in NZ is all mineral. I doubt it's because they can't get synthetic, I suspect it's because they think NZers wouldn't spend rthe money for synthetic fluid. Same reason you basically cannot get SSQA quick connects here - apparently NZers don't value those.

 

[TheOldHokie]

I believe SUDT is synthetic, UDT is mineral. So if the fluid you have is synthetic it's probably something like SUDT by another name. I believe what we get in NZ is all mineral. I doubt it's because they can't get synthetic, I suspect it's because they think NZers wouldn't spend rthe money for synthetic fluid. Same reason you basically cannot get SSQA quick connects here - apparently NZers don't value those.

In the US market synthetic vs mineral is a blurred distinction. Much of the 'synthetic" oil on the shelf is actually a highly refined mineral base oil.

As far as SUDT vs UDT goes:

1. SUDT has a slightly lower KV100 viscosity with a higher viscosity index (200 vs 140) which makes it a superior circulating oil in cold temperatures.
2. SUDT is formulated with chemistry that increases its water tolersnce. It absorbs a minimum of 1% water by volume without additive dropout, emulsification, or separation of free water. That helps reduce corrosion and keeps filters from clogging up.

Thats what you are getting for your money. Its enough to get me to open my wallet for the new HST but not the old gear drive.

YMMV

Dan

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

SUDT is Obsolete by about 10 years.

UDT and SUDT2 are the only 2 options

UDT mineral
SUDT semi synthetic
SUDT2 full synthetic

 

[PaulL]

So, no my hose shop does not have BSPP banjos, and they reckon one of them isn't even BSPP, and potentially UNC? Certainly they think it's a bit obscure, and don't have it.

Their recommendation is that they just cut up the hard pipe, and use the fittings off each end. We know they work. I see I can buy that part again from Messicks if I ever need it:

Kubota #6C410-39232 PIPE DELIVERY, L

PIPE DELIVERY, L

www.messicks.com

The diagram showing it marks it as part 090:

They couldn't guarantee finishing today if they made it today, they said Friday afternoons get busy. I need the tractor this weekend, so this is a next week task now.

The small risk here is that they cut up the part then something goes wrong. My tractor will then be non-functional until I get the new part, and they're not easy to get in NZ. I don't think it's a big risk though.

 

[TheOldHokie]

So, no my hose shop does not have BSPP banjos, and they reckon one of them isn't even BSPP, and potentially UNC? Certainly they think it's a bit obscure, and don't have it.

Their recommendation is that they just cut up the hard pipe, and use the fittings off each end. We know they work. I see I can buy that part again from Messicks if I ever need it:

Kubota #6C410-39232 PIPE DELIVERY, L

PIPE DELIVERY, L

www.messicks.com

The diagram showing it marks it as part 090:
View attachment 142658

They couldn't guarantee finishing today if they made it today, they said Friday afternoons get busy. I need the tractor this weekend, so this is a next week task now.

The small risk here is that they cut up the part then something goes wrong. My tractor will then be non-functional until I get the new part, and they're not easy to get in NZ. I don't think it's a big risk though.

Nonesense. The ends on the pipes are banjos and the bolts work. All you need is a couple banjos with threaded ends like I pictured. Surely they can get something like that. I am in the USA where BSPP is rare and I can get them in any number of sizes and types in a matter of days.. I am not getting a warm and fuzzy feeling from your hose shop.

Dan

 

[PaulL]

Nonesense. The ends on the pipes are banjos and the bolts work. All you need is a couple banjos with threaded ends like I pictured. Surely they can get something like that. I am in the USA where BSPP is rare and I can get them in any number of sizes and types in a matter of days.. I am not getting a warm and fuzzy feeling from your hose shop.

Dan

They can order. It'll take time. The top one looked standard, and they can order that. The one on the side he reckoned wasn't bspp, and didn't know what it was.

How do I go about establishing exactly what banjo body size I need? I guess I can take it apart and measure with calipers, and reuse both the seals and the bolts from the original part. But it does seem easier to just have them cut what I have - that is already known to fit.

 

[TheOldHokie]

They can order. It'll take time. The top one looked standard, and they can order that. The one on the side he reckoned wasn't bspp, and didn't know what it was.

How do I go about establishing exactly what banjo body size I need? I guess I can take it apart and measure with calipers, and reuse both the seals and the bolts from the original part. But it does seem easier to just have them cut what I have - that is already known to fit.

Its your tractor. If you want to cut the pipe go ahead.

Personally I would take the banjo bolts out and measure the OD of the thread with your caliper. Should be obvious from that. SUMMIT and WR Long make aftermarket hydraulic 3rd function kits here in the US and have no problem supplying matching banjo adapters with their kits.

Dan

 

[WI_Hedgehog]

I'm inclined to agree with @TheOldHokie, with hydraulics it's best to do it simple and right the first time to reduce current and future expense, and more importantly leaks. It's already tight in that area, going back in to fix a leaking "something" isn't going to be fun.

I'm new to tractor hydraulics, but with the help here it's not been a bad experience, and for me once I understood the basics things just kept getting easier. I expect it will be the same for you, maybe not on the quick timeline you're hoping for, but understanding how things work makes the whole tractor experience much better (and easier, and less expensive).

 

[PaulL]

My main issue is that I don't really understand the differences between BSPP, UNC, and metric, and how I get the right size. I think it's more than just thread OD, I also need thickness of the banjo body, it needs seals on it. It feels like there's a lot that can go wrong.

Am I correct in thinking that actually the bolt is all that matters? And I'm using the same bolts (no need to swap), so I just need a banjo body that will seal that particular bolt - i.e. in some sense it doesn't matter whether it's BSPP, UNC or some other thread, because that's only the bolt and the bolt I already have. I just care that the banjo body has a hole big enough for the bolt to go through, has appropriate seals, and has a thickness that is correct to allow the bolt to seat properly? It will connect to a hose, so whatever threads or attachment it has on it's end I just get a hose fitting that will mate to that? Am I over simplifying?

 

[TheOldHokie]

My main issue is that I don't really understand the differences between BSPP, UNC, and metric, and how I get the right size. I think it's more than just thread OD, I also need thickness of the banjo body, it needs seals on it. It feels like there's a lot that can go wrong.

Am I correct in thinking that actually the bolt is all that matters? And I'm using the same bolts (no need to swap), so I just need a banjo body that will seal that particular bolt - i.e. in some sense it doesn't matter whether it's BSPP, UNC or some other thread, because that's only the bolt and the bolt I already have. I just care that the banjo body has a hole big enough for the bolt to go through, has appropriate seals, and has a thickness that is correct to allow the bolt to seat properly? It will connect to a hose, so whatever threads or attachment it has on it's end I just get a hose fitting that will mate to that? Am I over simplifying?

Actually you are over complicating it. Measure the thread on the OEM banjo bolt. Thats the only thing you cannot control. Use a caliper or mic and get within .005 accuracy. That will tell you all of those other things. My bet is BSPP with an outside possibility its metric.

Dan

 

[PaulL]

Actually you are over complicating it. Measure the thread on the OEM banjo bolt. Thats the only thing you cannot control. Use a caliper or mic and get within .005 accuracy. That will tell you all of those other things. My bet is BSPP with an outside possibility its metric.

Dan

But I don't understand why I care about the thread? I'm going to reuse that bolt, so I know it fits. What I need is a banjo body to put the bolt in. I presume the body doesn't care whether the threads are BSPP or something else?

 

[TheOldHokie]

But I don't understand why I care about the thread? I'm going to reuse that bolt, so I know it fits. What I need is a banjo body to put the bolt in. I presume the body doesn't care whether the threads are BSPP or something else?

Because you may not reuse those bolts!!

That was the inital assumption but after your hose guys looked at the pipe thats now in question. If the pipe is hybrid or nonstandard the bolts may not be standard items. They may be extra long for thicker banjos because the pipe is larger diameter. If you are using a standard banjo you will need a standard (shorter) bolt. I Looked at the pictures of the Summit kit and they supply a banjo AND a bolt. Just one set not two. Its not clear how they connect thie other hose to the other port.

What I am quite sure of is those ports are a standard thread and thats what you need to identify. Then you match standard hydraulic fittings to it just like Summit has.

Humor me please - measure the threads. Its easy and the next time this topic comes up we will know the answer.

Dan

 

[TheOldHokie]

Here is a picture of the Summit rear remote kit for a B2601. Notice the two hoses have JIC female swivels on all ends and the valve has male JIC adapters in the the subplate.

The four fittings circled on red are used to connect the two hoses to the power beyond ports in place of the OEM pipe.

You have one male JIC banjo adapter with what I suspect is a BSPP banjo bolt that goes on top of the transmission.

The other two fittings look like an ORB to JIC straight adapter and a JIC male/female elbow. That leads me to think the PB port in the valve is actually SAE ORB which is what was confusing your hose shop.

If you will simply measure the two OEM banjo bolts we will see if my deductions are accurate.

Dan

 

[TheOldHokie]

BINGO!! Finally got some supporting data from the Kubota L4060 parts catalog. Heres the banjo bolt used on that loader valve: 3/4-16 UNF.

Thats an SAE-08 port thread and things are starting to get a little clearer in my mind.

1. In the US Kubota loader valves typically have SAE ports and are commonly plumbed to an outlet block using SAE to JIC adapters and hoses.
2. Looks like Kubota got a bit creative on the loader valves that are integral to the tractor itself. They are using pipes and banjo fittings which makes sense given the tight quarters. The tractor side ports are likely BSPP as is customary but the loader valves are using an SAE banjo and bolt. Thats very unusual and finding an off the shelf SAE banjo or bolt in those sizes is a real scavenger hunt. Ford did it a lot in the 60s thru early 80s tractors and those fittings and hoses are essentially dealer only.
3. I am going to guess that if you measure the threads on the banjo bolts used on your tractor you will find the loader valve bolt is 9/16 UNF (.562 -18) and the transmission bolt is G3/8 (.650-19 Whitworth)

Those are standard SAE and BSPP port threads and there are multiple ways to adapt them to hoses using standard off the shelf fittings. Summit appears to have chosen a standard JIC banjo AND MATCHING BOLT for the transmission port. They scrapped the banjo entirely and opted for a standard SAE to JIC port adapter and swivel elbow. If I was making that hose I would be tempted to use this hose end fitting which I stock. They are basically a swiveling SAE banjo

In any event armed with the thread data your hose shop should be able to make what you need with hose ends and fittings appropriate to your part of the globe. No need yo butcher the OEM pipe.

Dan

 

[TheOldHokie]

One more example. This is the Landpride B2601kit.

P1 = power beyond port on loader valve
2 = SAE male to JIC male port adapter
3 = JIC female swivel x JIC male elbow.
6 = 3/8" hydraulic hose with JIC female swivel ends

 

[mcmxi]

I like using my tractor, and I'll never put enough hours on it for it to wear out no matter how hard I try. I do about 100-150 hours a year. Absolute worst case I wear it out in about 20 years and have to explain to the financial controller that I need a newer one.

As I noted above, this will be very occasional use for me. Occasional use means don't spend much money. A self powered one that I spend not much money on will have a Chinesium motor. I have a water blaster with a Chinesium motor and I hate it, so I never use it. I could arguably spend twice to three times as much and get one with a good Honda motor, but that's more money than I'm willing to spend on an occasional implement. I also am very limited in storage space, and don't really like maintaining small petrol engines.

I understand that for many people your advice would make sense. I don't think it fits my uses.

The real problem with all of these discussions is that so many want or need to have an opinion on everything. So many YouTube channels now spend time during a video explaining why they did something a certain way to preempt all of the criticism from the "experts". Who gives a toss what someone else thinks?

If you want a 3-point splitter and it works for you then that's all that matters. You don't need to defend your choice.

I don't fear the accumulation of hours on my tractors, in fact, quite the opposite. I bought my tractors to use and didn't buy them with a single thought about resale value or the next owner. My focus is using them to accomplish the tasks that I want or need to get done, and maintaining them so that I get many years of enjoyable use out of them. I couldn't care less about someone else's ideology when it comes to how they use or maintain their tractors.

 

[PaulL]

OK, so threads and fittings are not my thing, but a bit of google tells me some things. I think what I'm checking is:

1. That the loader has 3/4-16 UNF (or 9/16 UNF?). Which is the thread that an SAE08 port has, although I don't know what an SAE08 port is. And that should mean that the diameter across the outside of the threads is 3/4 inch (or 9/16 inch?), the F means it's fine pitch. The 16 I think refers to the number of threads per inch - so on a 1 inch bolt I should see 16 threads (the bolt is roughly 1 inch). So I could measure all that if I can dig out my calibers. 3/4 would be 19.05mm, 9/16 would be 14.3mm. The loader port is bigger than the tractor side, and I think below I decided the tractor will be 16.6mm. So it's probably 3/4 on the loader.

2. I think you're saying that there's no actual need for a banjo, and I can just get a screw in fitting in 3/4-16 (or 9/16?) UNF, that the hose shop has the right fittings to connect to the hose.

3. Next, you're saying that the tractor side port is BSPP. I don't know what size, I see you mention G3/8 - that's 3/8 inch? And Whitworth .650 - 19 would be .650 inch with 19 threads per inch? So I think that means that BSPP uses Whitworth thread sizings. Why on earth do people mix decimal measures with inches? And that can't be right, because 3/8 is .375, not .650, so I'm very lost there too. I can measure it though and tell you.

Wikipedia says there's no Whitworth 3/8-19 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Standard_Whitworth#List_of_thread_sizes), but it does point to BSPP, and BSPP has a 3/8-19. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Standard_Whitworth#List_of_thread_sizes. It says a major diameter of .6560, or 16.6mm (my calipers will be in mm). So I think I can measure that.

And I think that the page says that the 3/8 has nothing to do with the thread size, it's the inside diameter of a pipe that had an outside diameter of .6560 inch. And even worse, the pipes no longer have 3/8 inch inside diameter, because they have thinner walls nowadays, so the 3/8 refers to a hypothetical inside dimension that isn't the real inside dimension, and has nothing to do with the actual thread size. And people wonder why the rest of the world moved to metric!!

I went to the Kubota dealer today, the most knowledgeable guy there said that those fittings are all odd/custom sizes, and basically it means only OEM parts fit so far as NZ is concerned. He can order me another pipe if I cut this one, but it comes from Japan and it'll be about a month.

I'll ask the hose guy if he has any ability to access the fittings we're talking about, but otherwise I think I'm back to cutting the fitting, because I know that'll work.

 

[TheOldHokie]

OK, so threads and fittings are not my thing, but a bit of google tells me some things. I think what I'm checking is:

1. That the loader has 3/4-16 UNF (or 9/16 UNF?). Which is the thread that an SAE08 port has, although I don't know what an SAE08 port is. And that should mean that the diameter across the outside of the threads is 3/4 inch (or 9/16 inch?), the F means it's fine pitch. The 16 I think refers to the number of threads per inch - so on a 1 inch bolt I should see 16 threads (the bolt is roughly 1 inch). So I could measure all that if I can dig out my calibers. 3/4 would be 19.05mm, 9/16 would be 14.3mm. The loader port is bigger than the tractor side, and I think below I decided the tractor will be 16.6mm. So it's probably 3/4 on the loader.

2. I think you're saying that there's no actual need for a banjo, and I can just get a screw in fitting in 3/4-16 (or 9/16?) UNF, that the hose shop has the right fittings to connect to the hose.

3. Next, you're saying that the tractor side port is BSPP. I don't know what size, I see you mention G3/8 - that's 3/8 inch? And Whitworth .650 - 19 would be .650 inch with 19 threads per inch? So I think that means that BSPP uses Whitworth thread sizings. Why on earth do people mix decimal measures with inches? And that can't be right, because 3/8 is .375, not .650, so I'm very lost there too. I can measure it though and tell you.

Wikipedia says there's no Whitworth 3/8-19 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Standard_Whitworth#List_of_thread_sizes), but it does point to BSPP, and BSPP has a 3/8-19. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Standard_Whitworth#List_of_thread_sizes. It says a major diameter of .6560, or 16.6mm (my calipers will be in mm). So I think I can measure that.

And I think that the page says that the 3/8 has nothing to do with the thread size, it's the inside diameter of a pipe that had an outside diameter of .6560 inch. And even worse, the pipes no longer have 3/8 inch inside diameter, because they have thinner walls nowadays, so the 3/8 refers to a hypothetical inside dimension that isn't the real inside dimension, and has nothing to do with the actual thread size. And people wonder why the rest of the world moved to metric!!

I went to the Kubota dealer today, the most knowledgeable guy there said that those fittings are all odd/custom sizes, and basically it means only OEM parts fit so far as NZ is concerned. He can order me another pipe if I cut this one, but it comes from Japan and it'll be about a month.

I'll ask the hose guy if he has any ability to access the fittings we're talking about, but otherwise I think I'm back to cutting the fitting, because I know that'll work.

Paul, just measure the threads on your banjo bolts . Those are standard ports and all you need is standard fittings wirh the correct size and type of thread.

The transmission is a British pipe thread port rhat will accept any standard off the shelf BSPP fiitting of the proper size.

The valve is a US straight thread port and will accept any standrad SAE oring fitting of the proper size.

You just need to confirm the sizes by measuring the bolts with your caliper. You have the caliper and the bolts - just take the measurements.

And Paul, both mm and inches are a decimal measure: 19mm = .748", 3/4" = .750"

Dan

 

[PaulL]

OK, so measuring them this morning before I go into the shop. The large (loader PB port) is 19mm, so yes, 3/4-16 UNF makes sense. The small (transmission return) is 16.5mm, so yes, BSPP 3/8-19 makes sense. I'll see what the shop can do with that.

Thanks heaps for your help, sorry that I'm rather slow on all these threads and what on earth they all mean.

 

[TheOldHokie]

OK, so measuring them this morning before I go into the shop. The large (loader PB port) is 19mm, so yes, 3/4-16 UNF makes sense. The small (transmission return) is 16.5mm, so yes, BSPP 3/8-19 makes sense. I'll see what the shop can do with that.

Thanks heaps for your help, sorry that I'm rather slow on all these threads and what on earth they all mean.

First, no apologies needed. This can be confusing with just one style of standard fitting and Kubota has combimed BSPP and SAE ORB with non-standard banjo bolts.

At this point you dont even need the hose shop.

You need a standard 3/8 BSPP banjo or ekbow to xxx adapter, babjo bolt, and sealing waahers for the transmission.

You need a SAE-08 to xxx adapter for the valve.

The xxx is whatever you decide to use for hose ends. In my part of the world I would recommend hoses with JIC-08 female swivel ends which is what Kubota uses.

If JIC is something your hose shop understands I would use these two fittings.

9059-08-06 | Adaptall

www.adaptall.com

6400 | 37° JIC SAE Flare Male x SAE O-Ring Boss ORB Male Adapter | Hydraulics Direct

SAE O-Ring Boss ORB hydraulic adapters are made from pressure-resistant carbon steel known for its durability in demanding hydraulic environments These adapters facilitate conversions to NPT National Pipe Thread JIC Joint Industry Council following SAE J514 specifications and NPSM

www.hydraulicsdirect.com

Dan