HVAC related question

2manybikes

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19 L3560 HST with cab.
Aug 2, 2021
58
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The previous owner of my current home cut a 12"x12" opening next to the wall in one of the bedrooms and added a decorative floor register there, and a return air cover in the ceiling below. There is a woodstove in the room below it and some of the heat rises up through it. I purchased an 8" variable speed duct booster and placed it inside the framed opening below the register. That helped but the other end of the house is cooler. The basement is finished so I eventually plan on running some flex next to the boxed out drop girder and covering it. I can run all the way to the other end of the house if needed and come up through the ceiling of an unfinished utility room. I'm limited to 8" flex for a number of reasons. I know thats not enough to heat the house, I just want to warm the other end up a bit. My initial plan is to hook up the flex and booster in the bedroom, and run the flex along the floor to different parts of the house to determine the best location to bring it up from the basement. i'm starting with 25', and may use up to 50'. I understand there is air flow loss with any 45's, 90's or turns with out fittings along with longer runs of flex. My initial question is where to put the booster for maxium effectivness. I would like to know for the 25' and the 50' sections, Thanks



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GreensvilleJay

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1st do not use 'flex' ducting. It ha a HUGE 'loss' factor, avoid it like the plague !!! No serious, reputable HVAC installer uses it,unless absolutely necessary.
Since you mention 8", use off the shelf 8" square ducting .8" round is about 50 square inches of are, 8by8 is ,well ... 64" so already 25% MORE free air flow NOT accounting for flex losses. Boxing in square is easier than rounds...... Be SURE to use aluminum duct tape or dope at all the connections. Without it, you can lose 5-15% of the airflow.

2nd , 45s are better than 90s. a 90 is equal to about 10 FEET of 5" duct (charts are on the web....)

3rd, hole in floor near woodstove is a really,really BAD idea...voids most home insurances and against most building codes. Kind of a HUGE friggin FIRE HAZARD.....

4th ,booster placement. Usually better at the source than the destination. makes wiring easier, won't suck from all the seams you forgot to seal....

Lots of online info about 'duct line losses'
 
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Biker1mike

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3rd, hole in floor near woodstove is a really,really BAD idea...voids most home insurances and against most building codes. Kind of a HUGE friggin FIRE HAZARD.....
I agree. Floor duct like that is a no no.
If you had the house inspected prior to purchase I'd call the inspector and get some money back.
 

The Evil Twin

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I'm not a residential code expert. But I don't think what you want to do is against code as long as it meets duct requirements. Meaning, the opening is sleeved. Many homes built as recently as the 80s were made this way. My inlaws is and built in 87. Obviously codes change but there are so many non sealed penetrations between floors I can't see why it would be an issue. Every pipe that goes up, every central AC vent, electric wire or COAX is not sealed. Again, codes change.
As for the flex....you will be losing so much velocity it will not be worth while. Commercial limit is 6' length max.
Do you have central AC? Maybe run a return duct over to the stove. Did that at my parents place years ago. Placed the duct in the ceiling and dropped it out right over the wood stove. They could just leave the furnace in fan only and it heated the whole house.
 

GeoHorn

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....)

3rd, hole in floor near woodstove is a really,really BAD idea...voids most home insurances and against most building codes.….
I don’t know of any homeowners insurance which stipulates the home MUST meet any building code. The underwriter accepts the application for insurance or rejects it based upon all kinds of appraisals …but I’ve not seen any that specify ”building codes”. My own home was built in the country in the middle of 1500 acres in 1950. It had two-wire electrical, FIVE window unit ACs, and THREE 40-gallon electric water heaters, 5 bedrooms, 4 baths with electric heaters….all on a ONE HUNDRED AMP SERVICE ENTRANCE! One of the THREE breaker boxes was a Federal-Pacific which was condemned by the Nat’l Codes before 1960 because the “UL LISTED” was counterfeit.

I “upgraded” the electricals myself. I am not a licensed electrician. I”ve converted to 200A service entrance and installed an outbuilding piggy-backed off the house. The plumbing is a mix of galvanized iron and PVC and PEX.

State Farm paid out for water damage when the roof blew off in a storm…and the contractor insisted on upgrading the electrical to NEC (codes) while they were in the attic making repairs…and State Farm refused to pay for it, refused to require it, and has cont’d insuring the house ever since.

Soo…. I’d certainly like to see where not following codes “voids most home insurances” and where a rural home must meet codes.

In my profession I have heard for decades how the “FAA will violate you” if such-and-such… and how “insurance will void” if such-and-such…. and how a “law suit will bury you”… when such-and-such is found….
The FAA won’t do a thing unless 1)-they witness it, 2)- it results in an accident, 3)-someone is seriously hurt or killed. Aviation Insurance will almost Always “cover” the loss as-agreed because they don’t want the bad press of failing to serve the insured. They may not re-insure …but they will cover the loss.

I’m not opposed to thinking that putting/keeping a house in compliance with codes are the BEST thing to do…but I don’t subscribe to anecdotal suggestions about what insurers and lawyers will or will not do without some evidence.

I agree. Floor duct like that is a no no.
If you had the house inspected prior to purchase I'd call the inspector and get some money back.
I’ve got two rental properties I had inspected prior to purchase. Both of them were later discovered to not meet codes (one didn’t have shatter-proof glass at floor-level next to an entrance-door….a child hazard…. The other had a fireplace which did not meet fire-codes, and had bed-room windows too high on the wall to qualify for fire-exits.)
When I contacted the inspectors who had participated in the pre-buy… BOTH pointed to exclusion-phraseology in the inspection-contract that protected them from liability.

Good luck “getting money back”.

Both of these responses might be taken as “argumentive”….but that’s not what I mean by them. What I hope to convey is that some popularly-held assumptions are simply not true and correct.
The property owner is the Final Responsibility for safety and quality-assurance. Do your due diligence.
 
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GreensvilleJay

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Different parts of the World, different laws of the land.

Here in Ontario, every internal 'wood burning appliance' (wood stove, fireplace,etc.) which includes ducting and chimney structures MUST be 'SEER' certified, inspected by certified company and you need a specific 'rider' in you home insurance ( another $200-$300 fee....)

If you installed a high powered EV charging station, ESA mandates a 'whole house electrical' inspection. Naturally 99.44% houses fail and $$$$ to get house up to CURRENT code. HUGE 'grey' area about Arc fault breakers and some 'tricks' to NOT have to install them....hehehe....
 

The Evil Twin

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L2501, LA526,
Jul 19, 2022
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Different parts of the World, different laws of the land.

Here in Ontario, every internal 'wood burning appliance' (wood stove, fireplace,etc.) which includes ducting and chimney structures MUST be 'SEER' certified, inspected by certified company and you need a specific 'rider' in you home insurance ( another $200-$300 fee....)

If you installed a high powered EV charging station, ESA mandates a 'whole house electrical' inspection. Naturally 99.44% houses fail and $$$$ to get house up to CURRENT code. HUGE 'grey' area about Arc fault breakers and some 'tricks' to NOT have to install them....hehehe....
Not to go off topic, but if you want to put in an EV charger the whole house has to get updated to current code?!?! That's like making people NOT want to do it.
 

GeoHorn

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Different parts of the World, different laws of the land.

Here in Ontario, every internal 'wood burning appliance' (wood stove, fireplace,etc.) which includes ducting and chimney structures MUST be 'SEER' certified, inspected by certified company and you need a specific 'rider' in you home insurance ( another $200-$300 fee....)

If you installed a high powered EV charging station, ESA mandates a 'whole house electrical' inspection. Naturally 99.44% houses fail and $$$$ to get house up to CURRENT code. HUGE 'grey' area about Arc fault breakers and some 'tricks' to NOT have to install them....hehehe....
A separate/dedicated service-entrance might resolve adding a EV charging station.
 

Poohbear

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I'm a liscend HVACR contractor so all I'm going to say is 50 ft of 8 in Flex with only a booster fan is a waste of time & money, imho. The blower in your central air system will only cram 200 CFM at a velocity of about 600 ft per minute thru 8 in flex at normal static pressures
 
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GreensvilleJay

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yeah, welcome to 'Ontario, eh'.

If there's no free spot for 100A breaker for the EV charger ( the REAL charger ), electrician has to upgrade the service and of course since he's taken the panel cover off will see a ratz nest of 'suspicious' wiring.. and so the 'fun' begins. BTW a 'dryer' breaker ain't got enough power to recharge an F150 L overnight. The door's been opened and he has to 'follow the laws'......
yeah, welcome to 'Ontario, eh'.

HVAC guys have to be part of TSSA ( yet another 'long arm of the guv' ) .i fyou have one of their 'free furnace inspections' done, and he finds ANY rust inside or on the unit, he MUST by code, turn off gas to it and you're stuck getting a new furnace....
yeah, welcome to 'Ontario, eh'.

If you need an HVAC part, no dealer will sell to you unless you have a TSSA number.
yeah, welcome to 'Ontario, eh'.
 
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fried1765

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Different parts of the World, different laws of the land.

Here in Ontario, every internal 'wood burning appliance' (wood stove, fireplace,etc.) which includes ducting and chimney structures MUST be 'SEER' certified, inspected by certified company and you need a specific 'rider' in you home insurance ( another $200-$300 fee....)

If you installed a high powered EV charging station, ESA mandates a 'whole house electrical' inspection. Naturally 99.44% houses fail and $$$$ to get house up to CURRENT code. HUGE 'grey' area about Arc fault breakers and some 'tricks' to NOT have to install them....hehehe....
You also forgot to mention the PITA...... WHETT requirements!
 

DustyRusty

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yeah, welcome to 'Ontario, eh'.

If there's no free spot for 100A breaker for the EV charger ( the REAL charger ), electrician has to upgrade the service and of course since he's taken the panel cover off will see a ratz nest of 'suspicious' wiring.. and so the 'fun' begins. BTW a 'dryer' breaker ain't got enough power to recharge an F150 L overnight. The door's been opened and he has to 'follow the laws'......
yeah, welcome to 'Ontario, eh'.

HVAC guys have to be part of TSSA ( yet another 'long arm of the guv' ) .i fyou have one of their 'free furnace inspections' done, and he finds ANY rust inside or on the unit, he MUST by code, turn off gas to it and you're stuck getting a new furnace....
yeah, welcome to 'Ontario, eh'.

If you need an HVAC part, no dealer will sell to you unless you have a TSSA number.
yeah, welcome to 'Ontario, eh'.
Have you considered moving? New Hampshire is nearby and it is "Live free or die"!
 

GeoHorn

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Have you considered moving? New Hampshire is nearby and it is "Live free or die"!
I don’t recall the specific post …. perhaps CA…. don’t recall….. but I was greatly amused to read where someone posted their Motto: “Live free or here.”

:ROFLMAO:

PS: Aren’t New Hampshire license plates made by prisoners?
 

GreensvilleJay

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FT85.. those are the numbers on paper, don't work in the real world. Chargers only 'fillup ' to 80%(safety issue). 240v x 32a=7680 w, gives 19.5 hrs. So without factoring line losses, eff of charger,etc ,it'd cost me $38.40 for the 19.5 hrs the truck was plugged in, so truck is only available to use for 4.5 hrs.....and only get a MAX range of 230 miles.


No passport, can't cross the northern boarder...I'd have to canoe down to Mexico then FREELY WALK into the USA.......
 
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GeoHorn

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Texas
FT85.. those are the numbers on paper, don't work in the real world. Chargers only 'fillup ' to 80%(safety issue). 240v x 32a=7680 w, gives 19.5 hrs. So without factoring line losses, eff of charger,etc ,it'd cost me $38.40 for the 19.5 hrs the truck was plugged in, so truck is only available to use for 4.5 hrs.....and only get a MAX range of 230 miles.


No passport, can't cross the northern boarder...I'd have to canoe down to Mexico then FREELY WALK into the USA.......
…then the TX and FL governors would spend taxpayer dollars to transport you back to the northern border and you could walk back home.
 

DaveFromMi

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L3901 RCR1260
Apr 14, 2021
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Indiana
If you are assuming electric power is available, then an outdoor wood stove or wood burning furnace is what you need. I've seen furnace setups that use a couple of manual ductwork dampers to switch between gas and wood.
I've thought about cobbling together one of those.
If electric power is not available, then a free standing wood stove (not pellet or fireplace insert) would work.
 

JimmyJazz

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I don’t know of any homeowners insurance which stipulates the home MUST meet any building code. The underwriter accepts the application for insurance or rejects it based upon all kinds of appraisals …but I’ve not seen any that specify ”building codes”. My own home was built in the country in the middle of 1500 acres in 1950. It had two-wire electrical, FIVE window unit ACs, and THREE 40-gallon electric water heaters, 5 bedrooms, 4 baths with electric heaters….all on a ONE HUNDRED AMP SERVICE ENTRANCE! One of the THREE breaker boxes was a Federal-Pacific which was condemned by the Nat’l Codes before 1960 because the “UL LISTED” was counterfeit.

I “upgraded” the electricals myself. I am not a licensed electrician. I”ve converted to 200A service entrance and installed an outbuilding piggy-backed off the house. The plumbing is a mix of galvanized iron and PVC and PEX.

State Farm paid out for water damage when the roof blew off in a storm…and the contractor insisted on upgrading the electrical to NEC (codes) while they were in the attic making repairs…and State Farm refused to pay for it, refused to require it, and has cont’d insuring the house ever since.

Soo…. I’d certainly like to see where not following codes “voids most home insurances” and where a rural home must meet codes.

In my profession I have heard for decades how the “FAA will violate you” if such-and-such… and how “insurance will void” if such-and-such…. and how a “law suit will bury you”… when such-and-such is found….
The FAA won’t do a thing unless 1)-they witness it, 2)- it results in an accident, 3)-someone is seriously hurt or killed. Aviation Insurance will almost Always “cover” the loss as-agreed because they don’t want the bad press of failing to serve the insured. They may not re-insure …but they will cover the loss.

I’m not opposed to thinking that putting/keeping a house in compliance with codes are the BEST thing to do…but I don’t subscribe to anecdotal suggestions about what insurers and lawyers will or will not do without some evidence.



I’ve got two rental properties I had inspected prior to purchase. Both of them were later discovered to not meet codes (one didn’t have shatter-proof glass at floor-level next to an entrance-door….a child hazard…. The other had a fireplace which did not meet fire-codes, and had bed-room windows too high on the wall to qualify for fire-exits.)
When I contacted the inspectors who had participated in the pre-buy… BOTH pointed to exclusion-phraseology in the inspection-contract that protected them from liability.

Good luck “getting money back”.

Both of these responses might be taken as “argumentive”….but that’s not what I mean by them. What I hope to convey is that some popularly-held assumptions are simply not true and correct.
The property owner is the Final Responsibility for safety and quality-assurance. Do your due diligence.
Very well articulated Geohorn and I agree with your synopsis.