Guns...Times have changed...

[jyoutz]

I live and hunt in the West and have shot deer and elk with all manner of rifles and at ranges from a little over 200 yards to a little under 500 yards. I regularly shoot an AR308 chambered in, you guessed it, .308 Win or 7.62x51mm if you prefer. I used it to harvest a mule deer near Belt, MT at 210 yards. It was a chip shot for that rifle given that it's a sub moa rifle out to at least 500 yards.

I know of a woman up here whose only hunting rifle is an AR15 chambered in 6.5mm Grendel. She uses it for White Tail or Mule deer, and of course coyotes.

Yeah, people do use them for hunting, but they are not the choice of most hunters.

 

[jkrubi12]

It's easy to overthrow the government from behind a keyboard


While Mango Mussolini who still leaches off of the taxpayer dollar pushed for single points of entry in schools at an NRA convention despite being against fire code and would result in far more avoidable deaths.

Couldn't disagree more with your 'single points of entry' comment; it's BY FAR the easiest, most common, most reliable and simple method of controlling access to schools. How you figure that it would 'result in far more avoidable deaths' doesn't make sense to me. EDIT: All access points remain usable (for fire exit), but persons entering the facility do so thru one monitored (secured) entry point.

NO security improvements would ever be instituted if they were 'against fire code' or 'would result' in 'avoidable deaths'. The FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE for every school is the four walls! Controlled, monitored access to a school should be considered as a BASIC POLICY for any school security protocol.

One of the biggest problems I saw during my tenure as a school resource officer was students & faculty leaving doors open for access or environment attenuation (despite it being policy for locked doors & single-point building access).

The failures of the PD in TX needs to serve as a wake-up to all LEO's. Children are innocent & defenseless. A sworn LEO that does not IMMEDIATELY address that kind of threat is not doing his/her job.

Just my opinions, based on 23 yrs LEO service, 10 years as school resource officer.

2nd EDIT: I would like to say that my comments are intended to answer the concept at discussion, not disparage any member in any way; I've read numerous postings by radas and I know he's a solid contributor to this forum

 

[ZTMAN]

Times have changed. 47 years ago, I bought a deer rifle, which I still have. Took it to a department store to buy a scope and have it installed.

Walked through the mall with my rifle in hand. Did not even get a second look.

Could you imagine if you did that today?

 

[Bmyers]

Times have changed. 47 years ago, I bought a deer rifle, which I still have. Took it to a department store to buy a scope and have it installed.

Walked through the mall with my rifle in hand. Did not even get a second look.

Could you imagine if you did that today?

My guess is no one would notice you, they are all to busy on their phones.

 

[Clevus]

That situation has never entered my mind and is the least likely thing to worry about. The band of looters I encounter often are coyotes trying to get in the chicken pen. My existing guns work well for that. Regardless, back to my original point: an AR is most certainly not the most popular hunting rifles, even though some people use them for that.

Well, that is the reality hundreds of thousands of people were in during the summer of 2020. Riots, looting, communities burning and their government not responding. It is no longer a ”what if“ conspiracy theory. It was mayhem and law enforcement, while willing and able to quell the situation, were order to stand down. People in those areas were told to “do the best you can, no one is coming to help”. That happened!
Back to my most serious question: What weapon would you recommend them to defend their home and family against a horde of 20 to 30 plus aggressive rioters?

I was going to post a link, but you can google “what is the number one sporting rifle in America?”. It is the AR15.

 

[Clevus]

Times have changed. 47 years ago, I bought a deer rifle, which I still have. Took it to a department store to buy a scope and have it installed.

Walked through the mall with my rifle in hand. Did not even get a second look.

Could you imagine if you did that today?

If I ever hunt out west again I will use my trusty Husqvarna Nitro 30.06, with its original Weaver K4 scope. Tried and true.
The times they are a changing.

 

[jyoutz]

If I ever hunt out west again I will use my trusty Husqvarna Nitro 30.06, with its original Weaver K4 scope. Tried and true.
The times they are a changing.

Glass bedded bolt action accuracy?????

 

[Daren Todd]

Times have changed. 47 years ago, I bought a deer rifle, which I still have. Took it to a department store to buy a scope and have it installed.

Walked through the mall with my rifle in hand. Did not even get a second look.

Could you imagine if you did that today?

You get escorted out of a sporting goods store and the employee hands your purchase to you outside if it's a gun purchase.

Guns have to now be secured in a case in order to enter a gun shop. But I remember the days when you walked into the sporting goods store with your hunting rifle slung over your shoulder.

 

[mcmxi]

Yeah, people do use them for hunting, but they are not the choice of most hunters.

Depends on what you hunt too. A lot of people in Texas and other pig infested states use ARs of various types to help with "eradication".

I have quite a few ARs chambered in for variety of cartridges including .22LR, 5.56x45mm/.223 Rem, 6mm ARC, .308 Win/7.62x51mm and .450 Bushmaster. They are extremely versatile firearms.

 

[Dieseldonato]

You get escorted out of a sporting goods store and the employee hands your purchase to you outside if it's a gun purchase.

Guns have to now be secured in a case in order to enter a gun shop. But I remember the days when you walked into the sporting goods store with your hunting rifle slung over your shoulder.

Depends on your area. The guns shops around here wouldn't bat an eye, nor have they when myself or another walks in with a gun slung over their shoulder or hung off their side. Quite a few times people bring in fire arms for consignment and just lay them on the counter. The big box stores and cabella pro act like dicks. The mom and pop shops are happy for the business.

 

[Dieseldonato]

Glass bedded bolt action accuracy?????

I find it very funny and odd that you assume a semi automatic is any less accurate then a bolt action. I'm also going to go out on a limb and say you've never shot one, and if you did it was an entry level firearm. Your distain is noted and understood. We get it, you don't like them because they look scary. That does not mean other people fear them, or don't use them. On the contrary they are used in all sorts of hunting and sporting applications. The statistics speak for themselves and are easily found.

 

[radas]

You will be pleased to know they make panic hardware for security doors. Meeting the egress requirements of the Life Safety Code is easy.
Getting teachers not to block the doors open is the hard part…

Yeah but that is besides the point, they are using single point of entry/exit as a solution when it is not a viable one. Really, I was responding to an ignorant comment about the current president (who I am also not a fan of) for mentioning guns don't belong in the hands of certain individuals.

Couldn't disagree more with your 'single points of entry' comment; it's BY FAR the easiest, most common, most reliable and simple method of controlling access to schools. How you figure that it would 'result in far more avoidable deaths' doesn't make sense to me. EDIT: All access points remain usable (for fire exit), but persons entering the facility do so thru one monitored (secured) entry point.

NO security improvements would ever be instituted if they were 'against fire code' or 'would result' in 'avoidable deaths'. The FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE for every school is the four walls! Controlled, monitored access to a school should be considered as a BASIC POLICY for any school security protocol.

One of the biggest problems I saw during my tenure as a school resource officer was students & faculty leaving doors open for access or environment attenuation (despite it being policy for locked doors & single-point building access).

The failures of the PD in TX needs to serve as a wake-up to all LEO's. Children are innocent & defenseless. A sworn LEO that does not IMMEDIATELY address that kind of threat is not doing his/her job.

Just my opinions, based on 23 yrs LEO service, 10 years as school resource officer.

2nd EDIT: I would like to say that my comments are intended to answer the concept at discussion, not disparage any member in any way; I've read numerous postings by radas and I know he's a solid contributor to this forum

Thank you sir! I agree schools need to be fortified, but the "single point of entry/exit" comment from lawmakers/former lawmakers don't align with NFPA emergency exit requirement. The absolute minimum is 2 points of exit for a building with small occupancy (there are some exceptions due to size and smaller number of occupants but schools don't fit into this category) and then increase from 2 to more based on occupancy thresholds. If there was truly a single point of entry with multiple exit points, that would be a legitimate approach as you mentioned.

Many officers and other first responders put their lives on the line everyday, the "police force" mentioned should be made an example of for their cowardice and selfish behavior - charges of manslaughter at the very least.

 

[Clevus]

Glass bedded bolt action accuracy?????

I’ve always threatened to glass bed the action and float the barrel, for the last thirty years.
I will confess, I like to shoot. But then again I don’t play golf.

 

[mcmxi]

I find it very funny and odd that you assume a semi automatic is any less accurate then a bolt action. I'm also going to go out on a limb and say you've never shot one, and if you did it was an entry level firearm. Your distain is noted and understood. We get it, you don't like them because they look scary. That does not mean other people fear them, or don't use them. On the contrary they are used in all sorts of hunting and sporting applications. The statistics speak for themselves and are easily found.

Yeah, clearly @jyoutz has no experience with AR style rifles and their capabilities. I put together an AR chambered in 6mm ARC last year. It's a Frankenstein but with good components and this is how it shoots Hornady factory ammunition. 5-shot group at 100 yards, squares are 1". I changed the stock and the suppressor but it's basically what I show below.

I haven't worked up a hunting load for it yet, but I would certainly use it on deer and coyotes once I have a good Barnes LRX load figured out. Heck, I'd shoot a coyote using Hornady factory ammunition.

 

[Biker1mike]

....
Back to my most serious question: What weapon would you recommend them to defend their home and family against a horde of 20 to 30 plus aggressive rioters?
.....

If a person wants a weapon because they believe they are going to need to murder 20 - 30 people in a horde that is out to get them, they most likely should not have any weapon. A great reason for true background and stability checks. Home defense is valid .

AR-15 had/has a great marketing team. If it is #1 for hunting , great, an American business success story.
It is still a weapon based on maximum kill ratios.

 

[GreensvilleJay]

dang, had to zoom 500% to finally 'see' where the 5th round went !
'Franky' is a fine weapon !!!

 

[Clevus]

Yeah but that is besides the point, they are using single point of entry/exit as a solution when it is not a viable one. Really, I was responding to an ignorant comment about the current president (who I am also not a fan of) for mentioning guns don't belong in the hands of certain individuals.


Thank you sir! I agree schools need to be fortified, but the "single point of entry/exit" comment from lawmakers/former lawmakers don't align with NFPA emergency exit requirement. The absolute minimum is 2 points of exit for a building with small occupancy (there are some exceptions due to size and smaller number of occupants but schools don't fit into this category) and then increase from 2 to more based on occupancy thresholds. If there was truly a single point of entry with multiple exit points, that would be a legitimate approach as you mentioned.

Many officers and other first responders put their lives on the line everyday, the "police force" mentioned should be made an example of for their cowardice and selfish behavior - charges of manslaughter at the very least.

NFPA 101, Life Safety Code is the gold standard. Panic hardware is the push bars on exit doors that secure the door from the outside while allowing emergency egress is absolutely permitted. Additionally it can be alarmed to prevent casual use, as what happened in Uvalde. There is absolutely nothing in the fire code preventing it use in educational occupancies. In fact, it is preferred in many jurisdiction to prevent re entry in an actual fire.

 

[Dieseldonato]

Sorry the ar-15 has been marketed as a sporting rifle since its inception. the m-16 wasn't adopted till 1963-64. Demonstrations and proto types were being reviewed by the military in 60.
And concurrently being sold to the public as sporting rifles in semi automatic version.

 

[ZTMAN]

If I ever hunt out west again I will use my trusty Husqvarna Nitro 30.06, with its original Weaver K4 scope. Tried and true.
The times they are a changing.

Same scope I bought and still going strong.

 

[Dieseldonato]

Yeah, clearly @jyoutz has no experience with AR style rifles and their capabilities. I put together an AR chambered in 6mm ARC last year. It's a Frankenstein but with good components and this is how it shoots Hornady factory ammunition. 5-shot group at 100 yards, squares are 1". I changed the stock and the suppressor but it's basically what I show below.

I haven't worked up a hunting load for it yet, but I would certainly use it on deer and coyotes once I have a good Barnes LRX load figured out. Heck, I'd shoot a coyote using Hornady factory ammunition.

View attachment 80927

View attachment 80928

Very impressive for a throw together and factory ammo. My 5.56 isn't nearly that good. The .223 Wyld and the .308 are tack drivers with good loads.