Foundation prep questions

m32825

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I plan to build a metal garage on a concrete pad. I'm trying to figure out how much dirt work I need to do ahead of the concrete guys. I've taken out all the trees and bushes and topsoil. I'm working on raking the roots out of the soil with my grapple. How deep do I need to go? How small of a root piece do I need to be worried about? More is probably better but what's good enough? Thanks!

-- Carl
 

sheepfarmer

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FWIW I just got done (meaning I watched :rolleyes:) with the concrete work for a pole building, Morton, and the specs they provided in the contract were "Site preparation consists of the removal of organic matter, loose top soil, vegetation, unsuitable soil types, and cutting high areas or filling low areas with well-graded fill that is free of rocks (4" or larger except in column area where maximum size must be 1" or less) free of debris and frost when placed, and can be compacted to 95% of its maximum density. Earth removed from high areas can only be used if it meets these specifications. If the building will have a concrete floor, a minimum of 4" of well graded fill must be provided to level the rough grade. Well-graded fill is material consisting of particle sizes from its coarsest to finest particles, is trimable, compactable, and granular. A washed sand is not compactable and must not be used."

This doesn't help directly with your root question other than I got the impression that compactibility was everything, so if it is sticking up it would be a nuisance even if small. The guy that graded mine dug out a horrendous amount of topsoil to get down to something solid and then had to truck in a lot of packing sand, and pack it layer by layer to replace it. A lot will depend on your area.
 

Tooljunkie

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Your concrete guy will know. If he dont know find another guy. Substrate to me is no organics and like a clay base. Proper gravel for drainage and something that will compact. I did my floor,compacted the heck out of it and it has more steel than reccomended. Still cracked. Not enough depth around square floor drain.
 

skeets

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COMPACT COMPACT COMPACT get the base down as solid as you can rent a compactor and beat the snot out of it and fill the low spots and do it again,,,, When I had mine built i was working otu of town and wasnt there to over see what was being done,, they back filled ran a bobcat over it a few imes and did the floor,,, it has cracked and shifted and there is on spot in the back edge where the base is 4 inches lower then the floor because the ground settled leaving a gap between the cement and the base,,,, And the magistrate says there aint a thing I can do abut it to make the contractor come back and make it right,, grrrrrrrrrrr,, so compact it
 

redfernclan

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Also keep in mind if you take it down to grade and it looks good, leave it alone. Undisturbed dirt is the best thing to lay your rock on and then compact. But I am also talking about our ground that has a lot of clay in it. If you are pulling a bunch or roots out and are chewing up the ground, you will have to get all the organics out, compact, fill back up to grade 4 inches at a time compacting each layer, and then put your gravel down and compact it. Might even want a vapor barrier depending on the location and situation. Building methods are different around the Country and change for the situations that you have. This is the standard way to do it right here in Oregon.
 

85Hokie

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I plan to build a metal garage on a concrete pad. I'm trying to figure out how much dirt work I need to do ahead of the concrete guys. I've taken out all the trees and bushes and topsoil. I'm working on raking the roots out of the soil with my grapple. How deep do I need to go? How small of a root piece do I need to be worried about? More is probably better but what's good enough? Thanks!

-- Carl

Since you are in FL, the game changes a bit.

IF you were in a state that had hard freezes - your footers would need to be below the frost line to support the walls and roof. Then your slab on grade could be poured........you will not have that problem!:)

IF you must flip the dirt, cut on high end and turn it over to the low end, you have to pack it - and as Skeets said, pack it damn good. I dont care if you are going to walk on it only.....mother nature took millions of years of compaction and "running over with a bobcat" aint gonna do it!!!

IF you have a good chunk of soil that needs to be compacted, go ahead and rent a plate compactor - place a 6" lift of soil in the "hole", compact - then repeat.....if it cost you $200 for the weekend then it is welllll worth it !

AS for the slab - find your finish floor elevation, then set up batter boards - if you do not understand what I am talking about - get help! If you have that under hand, make sure you are 8" below your target elevation with your excavation. Once there - place 4" of 57's stone and "level" them, then lay down 10 mil plastic vapor barrier - then make sure you have 6" x 6" wire mesh or fiber in your 4" of concrete and you will be fine....

to answer you questions about depth - the roots will be fine as long as they lay flat and under the stone - your depth is really dependent on what you want ......but minimum 8 below - you can always use more stone, and or a bit more concrete.

If you have more specifics on your building - let us know and more info can follow.

IN the foundation stage is where more people mess up a shed or garage due to poor compaction or lack of knowledge!:)
 

Daren Todd

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Central Florida introduces a whole new parameter to the mix....... SUGAR SAND!!!! :eek: And fly by night contractors not used to sand and swamps. Compaction is gonna be the hardest issue to you unless your in one of the rare hilly areas. Or bring in some good base material. I would recommend consulting a contractor that has been around doing this for quite some time and see what they recommend. And stay away from the guys that have "been doing this for 20 years" and won't listen to reason or concerns. Most of the highest end housing developments down there scare the daylights out of me as far as how the houses were built. :eek:

For example. Watched them doing a slab for a 4500 square foot home with a three car garage. Foundation crew came in which consisted of a crew of mexicans. They outlined where the house was going. Utilities came out and trenched the utilities in. Plumbers ran there pipe. Foundation crew came back in and hand dug footers. No compaction anywhere the concrete was going. They poured the slab right on top of the ground. :eek: We won't discuss how thin the grout or stucco were. I'm sure you've seen the class action suits on the news :rolleyes:
 

cerlawson

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OK guys, here are some comments from a geotechnical civil engineer, licensed Professional Engineer now 87 years old. My specialty is foundations.

Some of what is given above makes sense, but you also should know that a concrete slab can bridge a lot of crap and nothing happens. I've built several garages for myself and have buried stumps and roots. Just be aware that any organic matter will eventually rot and take up less space. Under a well built slab, no sweat. I'd not worry about occasional roots 1" or smaller.

For site preparation it is not necessary to remove dark topsoil, since it already had rotted as far as it will. However, sod and brush and other highly organic stuff should go.

Compaction of any fill is necessary, and in layers. Even stripped ground needs compaction. However, the uniform grained "sugar sand" won't show much change if you try to compact it since all the grain sizes are the same. That's like trying to compact a bunch of marbles in a bucket. Try was you might, they won't take less space.

Be sure any compaction and other work extends out from the slab edges at least as far as the thickness of fill under the edges. You need edge support.

Compaction can be done with any vehicle, such as a car, a tractor with LOADED bucket, etc.. Tracked vehicles don[t work well. Use at least 5 tire passes on every square foot. Layers should be thin, certainly not over 10 inches for these light "compactors". If bone dry, a small amount of water, not flooding, helps get best density. If muddy or obviously wet, that water takes up space that eventually will be air, so settlement can occur. The sugar sand might benefit with a little water to keep the vehicle from becoming stuck. ideally if you can grab a handfull and it forms a nice "ball", the moisture content is good.

The recommendation for a vapor barrier underneath is not needed for a garage type building. It only is needed for a building with special flooring that can be affected by moisture coming up thru the slab, such as a store with vinyl flooring or a gymnasium. I will add that having a vapor barrier underneath holds water in the wet mix. That keeps the moisture percentage from top to bottom the same. Since concrete strength and eventual shrinkage varies dependent on the initial water/cement ratio at any part, these, properties then will vary later if the W/C ratio is different, top to bottom. Where no vapor barrier is present and the top W/C ratio is high, (excess water at top to start), the top will eventually shrink and the final slab will develop a curl. You can see this on highways after a rain, with no water standing at slab edges, but ponded inside.

You can avoid the vapor barrier by wetting down the ground just before the slab is placed.

For the slab, I'd be sure to use some form of reinforcement, placed at mid height, for sure where vehicles will sit. Ideally 1/2" bars )(No. 4 size) spaced about 18 inches each way would be good. there are grids of wire fabric that will work. You can order the concrete with small metal fibers in it. Slab thickness at least 4 inches, preferably 5. Some folks will thicken the edge where wall and loads sit. The mix should be stiff as you can handle and call for 5 bags (cement) per cubic yard when ordering it.

Add a bunch of water to make it flow is weakening the resulting final strength. The higher the water /cement ratio of the delivered mix, the weaker it finally will be.

Don't over work the surface. Initially only a quick floating with wood is needed for initial leveling. THAT'S ALL. Working it to make it smooth early on brings up water near the top and surface spalling and flaking will happen later. Wait until the smoothing will ring from the trowel movement and it is damn hard to get the stuff to move. It may be a few hours after placing. Early working with a steel trowel will result in surface that falls apart later. Excessive water content there at the top.

Cut or create joints no farther apart than 12 feet. Cut joints must be cut while the slab is still very early in hours, not the next day.

Then comes the curing. Concrete takes a long time to finally reach final strength; that is years. However, the most important thing in the early stage is not letting it dry. Water is needed for hardening to continue. Ideally covering with plastic for a month would be great, but at least a week covering and keeping moist is mandatory. Yes, add some water if you see it getting dry at any time. It may seem strange that adding a lot of the water in the mix causes weakened final result, but after hardening is underway, you want to retain water so increases strength can develop.
 

cerlawson

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Hey I forgot one thing. For a concrete slab floor there is no need for any base course, gravel or sand layer for support. You may want it due to ease of leveling it as compared to your site earth surface after grading to keep a uniform thickness of concrete. It provides only incidental support. However, for a blacktop roadway, the base is an important part of the "structure".
 

m32825

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Hey Gang,

Thanks for all the input. One of the things I love about our forum is how generous the members are about sharing experience. I appreciate all your attempts to keep me out of the weeds! :)

This will be a fair sized piece of concrete, at 30'x50' it's beyond anything I want to attempt on my own. I'll have a concrete crew come in to do the slab but I wanted to do what I could in terms of prep work. I had to take out a few trees and some shrubs (that thought they were trees) so a fair amount of root rake work needed to be done.

It's definitely down to 1" or less pieces but it sounds like all the dirt I've disturbed might need to be pushed aside and replaced with fill by the concrete guys. I'll let them take a look before I do anything else, they'd need to scrape it off and put it back, compacting layers at minimum.

Sugar sand, haha! The FedEx guy came late last week and saw this nice expanse of smooth level dirt adjacent to the driveway and decided it must be for turning around. No problem for a tractor with 4wd... and he almost needed one to get him back out! :)

-- Carl
 

cerlawson

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So you disturbed the site. Compacting original ground certainly should be considered. The nice thing about uniform sand is that it is relatively incompressible, like those marbles in the example.

Just because the concrete crew has been around for some time, a lot of those with good intentions may be doing things for the wrong reason. I've seen a lot of goofs out there. The main thing is delaying the final finishing as long as possible may not be so well accepted if quitting time is approaching. Is there any guarantee as to the long term durability of the finish they provide? Doing a lot of work finishing thinking it is a good idea has ruined many a slab.
 

Stubbyie

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Mr. Lawson has provided excellent advice.

If I may, some additions:

1. I've had good luck with foundation sand or 'screenings' (aka 'chat') or caliche by compacting within the forms to finished grade minus slab thickness by flooding inside the forms. Helps settlement and compaction (even if already compacted) and provides moisture for the bottom of the slab by preventing the bottom of the slab from being sucked dry by the soil beneath. Especially important if not using plastic under slab as vapor barrier. Plastic is cheap if you think the slab might ever turn into living or heated ('conditioned') work space. Compaction is important no matter how it is obtained.

2. When ordering the mix specify 'super plasticizer' as an admixture. This will decrease the water-to-cement ratio and yield a much stronger final cured slab.

Usually called "super" in the trade this magic stuff is starting to show up in retail settings. You can buy a quart and experiment in your next small batch job. Got a little electric or gas drum mixer? Dump in a sack of Quick-Crete and add a tiny tiny bit of water just to early dry-clump stage. Add a teaspoon of 'super' and you can watch the mix turn to a thick syrup. Magic. That will be the hardest concrete you ever made when it sets. Caution too much 'super' slows or prevents setting.

3. In my area the ready-mix companies promote polypropylene fibers as an admixture. Finishers find it difficult to get a slick pasty surface. I've heard it called 'cat hair' in the trade as a term of [not] endearment. I've used it and can't tell a difference with or without (based on setting anchors after 28-30-days). I'd be curious if anyone here has hands-on observation of core testing strength with and without fibers; I've not found an unbiased report.

Please post back your continuing experiences so we may all learn.
 

85Hokie

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Central Florida introduces a whole new parameter to the mix....... SUGAR SAND!!!! :eek: And fly by night contractors not used to sand and swamps. Compaction is gonna be the hardest issue to you unless your in one of the rare hilly areas. Or bring in some good base material. I would recommend consulting a contractor that has been around doing this for quite some time and see what they recommend. And stay away from the guys that have "been doing this for 20 years" and won't listen to reason or concerns. Most of the highest end housing developments down there scare the daylights out of me as far as how the houses were built. :eek:

For example. Watched them doing a slab for a 4500 square foot home with a three car garage. Foundation crew came in which consisted of a crew of mexicans. They outlined where the house was going. Utilities came out and trenched the utilities in. Plumbers ran there pipe. Foundation crew came back in and hand dug footers. No compaction anywhere the concrete was going. They poured the slab right on top of the ground. :eek: We won't discuss how thin the grout or stucco were. I'm sure you've seen the class action suits on the news :rolleyes:

the idea of sand under the concrete is age old - however........studies are now showing that it is not working well....

http://www.concreteconstruction.net...se Sand Under Concrete Slabs_tcm45-343513.pdf

now they are talking about "loose" sand .....sand CAN be compacted but, must will not do so.

another site on compaction :

http://www.concretenetwork.com/concrete-subgrades-subbases/how-to-compact.html

the problem with most all concrete is the substrate has not be prepped correctly!
 

cerlawson

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Hoki's second post has some useful information if you want to get into details. Most home brew jobs are done without the tests.

Here is a statement or two that I don't agree with. Deals with compaction.

prevents frost damage (heave) if the soil under the slab freezes
reduces swelling and contraction


The writer has never had any experience in cold country I can see. You are not going to prevent frost heaving by compacting the stuff. Only three things affect it and these can be modified. Water, frost susceptible soil and below freezing temp. Also in areas of high plasticity clays,, such as montmorillonite, too much compaction can result in major swelling when water is available to the clay. Ideally you leave the compacted clay at the moisture content that it "likes" to sit at naturally. Don't dry it below that ideal moisture content.
 

cerlawson

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One more;

These statements can be argued up and down and should be considered meaningless. They do not belong in an article about concrete slabs.

Clay that you can push your thumb a few inches into with moderate effort has a bearing strength in the range of 1000 to 2500 psf
Loose sand that you can just barely push a #4 rebar into by hand has a bearing capacity of 1000 to 3000 psf
Sand that you can drive a #4 rebar into about 1 foot with a 5-pound hammer has a bearing capacity over 2000 psf


I've learned through the years that if you find an untrue or misleading statement within a presentation, the remainder comes into question as meaning anything. The quoted material comes close to that, in my opinion.
 

85Hokie

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First link not working….

hell - it would NOT work for me either.......ol cut and paste didnt work, well ---- it was talking about a huge study about sand being used and how IT too needs to be compressed - then again SAND is a bad choice .....

most commercial contractors worth their merit have stopped filling with sand ......

for patio stones it great though!!!!:):D
 

jfnewell1965

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Hey I forgot one thing. For a concrete slab floor there is no need for any base course, gravel or sand layer for support. You may want it due to ease of leveling it as compared to your site earth surface after grading to keep a uniform thickness of concrete. It provides only incidental support. However, for a blacktop roadway, the base is an important part of the "structure".
I wanted to ask you about this, if there is more detail you can offer.

I just had a 16X24 shed slab laid down, and while the plans I purchased talked about a base course, the guys laying the slab said no.

They said raw undisturbed earth, and they ran over it repeatedly with their tractor. They only fill they used was what they called "Select-Fill". I forget what "Select-Fill is made up of, but it is a mix of maybe 3/8 at the largest on down to fines/sand size at the smallest. They also ran over this repeatedly with the tractor.

My land is in Texas, and it seems nothing from other places seems to apply here.

It just threw me off that so many plans call for a gravel/sand layer, but the guys doing my slab were so adamant that it was not needed.
 

ShaunRH

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I've worked with several types of compactors, from vehicle to plate style. We had the best results with the 'jumping jack' style of compactor. It worked better than even multi-ton rollers did. No cracks on a 3 car garage on clay after a decade, of course it was at least 6" thick in the smallest spots and had 1/2" rebar every 12".
 

cerlawson

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Hokie: The negative report on sand would be of interest. I've worked with lots of different soil and the good thing about sand is that it is well understood as to properties. The uniform stuff has a very small range of density between loose and compacted. Well graded sand is probably the cause of problems since its range of density from loose to dense is quite large. However, compaction works quite well to make it usable. I like working with sand.

Your second post mentioned the Proctor test, named after an engineer working for the water department at LA about 1910 or so, but you can do a Google search and get all the scoop. The Proctor test doesn't really suit itself to sand, but people still use it.

As to why no base course of sand lift is needed under concrete I can point to a number of references. These deal with concrete pavements. The American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials (AASHTO) conducted an extensive study of many different types of pavements at Ottawa, IL about 1950 or so. That "road" is now part of the Interstate there. You can look up some of the results maybe by a search for AASHTO and Ottawa, IL. They developed design guides for rigid as well as flexible pavements (concrete and blacktop).

The designs are tied to soil type and traffic count. However, there isn't a heck of a lot of info out there for simple slabs that have little if any loadings repeating on them. The bending resistance of concrete is not the best, but that is used for spreading any loads onto the subgrade (what ever is under it).


In that study the design guides show very little benefit from base courses under concrete pavements.

I once was the head Soils Engineer for Wisconsin DOT (1958-63) and adapted the AASHTO methods to Wisconsin and that procedure is still in use. Wisconsin uses a well graded (sizes range from silt to gravel) base course a lot, but gradually are adapting a two layer base course because the trucks will "pump" the fines out from under at the joints, resulting in a faulting of the road, like driving down a set of stairs. The two layer filters the lower well graded layer so migration doesn't occur.

One thing about clean sand that may be why some don't like it is its lack of binder (usually a little silt of clay). Thus when saturated and with a little repeated loading, it may migrate out from under. Dry sand will do the same thing. Sit a big compressor on the slab and you may well have migration out from under. However, these situations are rare. I once witnessed it migrating out from under a lightly loaded building footing when plate compactors were run nearby.

However, most slabs have at least some fill against the edge to resist migration due to vibrations of the slab. If one is in sand country (many areas of the US), what the heck is he to do? We live with it.