Finding the survey starting point question

[Henro]

I recently combined three pieces of property onto one deed.

Looking at the metes and bounds property descriptions, they all start with something like "starting at a pin in the road..." then give direction and distance to the next point, and finally the last leg ends at the starting point.

What I can't figure out is how is the starting point found? I would get it if it was given specifically as a latitude and longitude location. BUT I don't see any specific location of the starting point on any of the three deeds (all three properties touch each other). Just says pin in the road, pin at the NW corner of property now or formally owned by Mr. X, or point in the center of a right of way. Or something similar.

What am I missing?

I just spent an hour googling this and know less now than when I started...

 

[SusanDuffy]

Get this app, “onX-Hunt”.
It is for hunters, and shows all property lines. It’s great, just walk around while holding your phone, and it shows you your property lines. I think I pay $20 per year for it.

 

[ayak]

I was able to find my second point (easier if it’s a driven rod and not a tree) and then go backwards—but they do frown upon digging up the road itself to find that actual first pin . It’s a bit of a leap of faith that it’s there. Hopefully, your second pin is close (mine was right at the road bank).

 

[RCW]

Henro - PA may certainly be different than NYS.

In NYS, many rural roads have a “right of use” and a right-of-way through your property.

You own to the center of the road, but doubtful you’ll ever find a pin. Your town highway maps may/may not show the highway right of way.

I have adjoined properties in both the town and village. In the village, I own to the street, but in the town I own to the centerline of the road, with the right of way I mentioned before.

 

[Henro]

Thanks for the heads up on that.

But I know where the property lines are within a foot or two.

What I don't know is how a surveyor finds the starting point when the deed just says "Starting at a pin in the road..."

Naturally the pin in the road is probably long gone. I do know there are monuments that are basic references that surveyors use, but they are different than the pins used to define corners of individual pieces of property, and there is considerable distance between them.

 

[RCW]

I doubt a surveyor will have an issue with the pin in the road quandary if it’s anything like New York.

 

[Henro]

I doubt a surveyor will have an issue with the pin in the road quandary if it’s anything like New York.

I am sure they have a way to find a pin. I think today they have portable GPS units that they set up on existing monuments, and can use them to locate things down to inches or fractions probably.

BUT they would still have to know where the pin was located to use them. I suppose they could calculate the position using all the information on the properties between the official monuments and the property in question. Seems cumbersome though...and what did they do 50 years ago?

 

[RCW]

I am sure they have a way to find a pin. I think today they have portable GPS units that they set up on existing monuments, and can use them to locate things down to inches or fractions probably.

BUT they would still have to know where the pin was located to use them. I suppose they could calculate the position using all the information on the properties between the official monuments and the property in question. Seems cumbersome though...and what did they do 50 years ago?

I’m not a surveyor, but I think they use filed right-of-way mapping to locate pin locations in the center of the right-of-way.

We have many “3-rod” rights of way in very rural places….about 48 feet.

While you own to the centerline, you have no control over the right of way.

 

[Biker1mike]

You could rent a metal detector and walk the approximate line.
I found mine with the plow blade. About inches from the road edge in the driveway.

 

[Russell King]

Often (in Texas) the starting point is something odd and then they state how far to the first corner of the property. Something like “Starting at the large oak tree with a cotton gin spindle driven into the base go 200 feet at heading 27 degrees south west to start point pin.

If the reference a pin in the road you may be able to see a “nail” driven into the pavement and the surveyor would have located it with the specialized metal detector or just knew where it was.

In your case, you can probably work backwards since you know the property point location approximately. Then read the notes that say something like “starting at pin in the road go 25 feet due South to the North East corner of property “
So you find the north east corner of the property and go due North 25 feet and you should see a pin or use a metal detector to locate the pin

Honestly today the surveyor probably links to cellular towers that tell him where the instrument is and they can calculate where the point of the property is

 

[fried1765]

I was able to find my second point (easier if it’s a driven rod and not a tree) and then go backwards—but they do frown upon digging up the road itself to find that actual first pin . It’s a bit of a leap of faith that it’s there. Hopefully, your second pin is close (mine was right at the road bank).

Much depends on when that "pin" was set, and the road surface type, then and now.
If it is an asphalt road, and the road has since been repaved, you will likely never find it.
There may be a R/W sideline offset pin, but to find that you will need to know the layout width of the road.
There is also no easy way for you to know if the "road" is actually in the center of the R/W.

 

[motionclone]

Get this app, “onX-Hunt”.
It is for hunters, and shows all property lines. It’s great, just walk around while holding your phone, and it shows you your property lines. I think I pay $20 per year for it.

Not sure if the same app but these apps are not as accurate as a deed . Would be ok for hunting but not for determining legal property boundries. Ran into this when my neighbor was describing "his" side of our property line. I showed him the deed and town plot map which was different than what his app showed.

 

[lynnmor]

I at one time thought that surveys were a exacting science. When I brought up the surveys of adjoining properties the angles where the properties meet were all different. I am currently negotiating with my neighbor about buying a piece of his land, that piece is tract 1 of 2 that make up his deed. The angles between the two tracts don't match. The angles between my property and his are different causing an 18 foot error at the road.

The deed to the property that is on the other side of my property says that the line follows my line but gives a very different angle.

The large farm behind me must have been surveyed using true north and all the others around it must use magnetic north. I laid all of this out in AutoCad and it is a mess. When I rotate that farm 7 degrees the puzzle pretty much fits.

It is all guesswork in my opinion.

 

[fried1765]

I at one time thought that surveys were a exacting science. When I brought up the surveys of adjoining properties the angles where the properties meet were all different. I am currently negotiating with my neighbor about buying a piece of his land, that piece is tract 1 of 2 that make up his deed. The angles between the two tracts don't match. The angles between my property and his are different causing an 18 foot error at the road.

The deed to the property that is on the other side of my property says that the line follows my line but gives a very different angle.

The large farm behind me must have been surveyed using true north and all the others around it must use magnetic north. I laid all of this out in AutoCad and it is a mess. When I rotate that farm 7 degrees the puzzle pretty much fits.

It is all guesswork in my opinion.

If you are willing to pay for a (reputable) surveyor it can all be worked out.

 

[baronetm]

20 years ago, I had my property sub-divided; the surveyor used a base marker at a state highway bridge 400+ feet away from my property. A BM is a known verified location and elevation set up by US Geological Survey. Along with previous survey maps and deeds he used his total station and a specialized metal detector to find my northwest corner pin or start point, it was buried 12” in the ground, by his calculation he was within 1” (inch) and found the pin on the first try exactly where he measured it would be.

The next day he came back and using another specialized instrument and a clock set to Naval Observatory time, he shot the sun at exactly 9:30 am. With this instrument he was able to measure the diameter of the sun over a set time period, he was able to tell exactly where he was standing on the earth surface and its elevation, he then verified the location of the original BM location by the bridge and my property boundary starting point, he said just to make sure the BM had not been moved because it is set in a cement monument not natural stone. From there he continued using the previous surveys and deeds Lat/Long, direction etc. to verify the distance and location of the remaining property boundary corner pins, all were within what he called a reasonable margin of error or a few inches. He also found four highway monuments long buried showing the easterly boundary of the state highway and my westerly property boundary, the highway right of way is 100 to 150 feet along my boundary depending on topography.

This is I am sure a simplified explanation and may have some errors; but it is my relocation of the surveyor’s explanation to me as to what and why he was doing what he did.

As a side note here in Vermont and New England, we have areas know as Gores, they are I believe pieces of land that surveyed do not fit into any of the surrounding towns or may just be a survey that does not close. Usually, a narrow or triangular strip of land, an issue that goes back to original surveys, colonial times and land grants.

My opinion, it is an exact science done properly. I remember some of the surveyors comment to a previous survey of my land done by someone with questionable ability or creditability my words, he would not explain, that is why all the work to verify the start point. In my property survey there were no errors on any of the previous 4 deeds researched going back more than 100 years.

Gore (surveying) - Wikipedia

 

[GreensvilleJay]

I'd 'assume' the 'pin in the road' means the center line of the road but if your road crews are relate to the clowns that did mine.....well the center of the road AIN'T center anymore ! They raised it up 8" ,moved it 'here and there' never EVER used a ruler, tape measure,laser, sticks, theodolite, chains, a new fangeled GPS unit, NOTHING..Now, some kid with the fancy machine IS taking LOTS of readings( 100s),cause they're repaving the road...3rd time in 5 years.....idiots......
'Surveyors' doing next door ( I even have the survey) could NOT find 3 of the bars..... even with their high powered 'magic wand' gizmo. I looked at a sat photo, READ the survey, literally paced out a few this way, couple that, said' the bar's here'. The gizmo beeped about 3" from where I said it was.

When (if ??) you find a bar....dig around it and bury a rotor around it. Then ,even a cheapy metal detector WILL find the bar !!!!

 

[Trapper Bob]

When I bought my farm, previous owner was selling 247 acres. The surveyor could only find 242 acres. He never left his office, did everything with satellite views & computer programs. This is a corrections section (not 1 mile square). The 3 deeds are expressed in directions & rods.

i also have a 7 acre bump in my N property line where a creek has an oxbow. Some years ago (before 1960), previous property owners couldn’t keep a fence up around the creek & moved the property lines around the creek. The creek continues to undercut the bank causing the fence to be moved back every 5 or so years. My farm is getting larger, very slowly.

 

[lynnmor]

If you are willing to pay for a (reputable) surveyor it can all be worked out.

When the road frontage of the land is added up, there is quite a discrepency, by saying it can be worked out I guess you mean that the one favored by the surveyor will gain the most.

 

[DustyRusty]

Magnetic North vs True North has been a surveyor's nightmare for decades or even centuries.

 

[PoTreeBoy]

Magnetic North vs True North has been a surveyor's nightmare for decades or even centuries.

Right. I think magnetic variation has been recognized for centuries and somewhat corrected, but I'm not sure the old timers realized that the magnetic poles move.

I'm convinced surveying is somewhat kin to a black art or black magic. A tract my sister inherited from my dad in Mississippi was something like 'south half of southeast quarter of section X, township Y". You'd think section corners would be definite points, but the land had probably never been surveyed on the ground until recently.