Educate me on hydraulics (top n tilt / remote hydraulics)

[ngiovas]

I am planning to purchase an L3560 LE very soon, but I am trying finalize which options I want to purchase with the tractor. I have already decided that I will add the third function kit to the front, but I'm not very clear on the details of top n tilt / rear hydraulics.

I understand the basics - that if I have top n tilt, I can lift and tilt a 3 point attachment such as a box scraper. Where I am confused is the use of a double acting valve vs the float valve and which is better for different scenarios. I understand if you set a valve to the float position, a box scraper or mower can move freely on the ground. When you add a float valve, is it one of the two valves on the top n tilt, or do both of those need to be double acting valves and then a third valve is added for the float funciton? Can 2 or more valves be floating?

Sorry if these are basic questions. The more I read, the more confused I get. I am trying to decide between 2 and 3 valves and what type I should get. The dealer is offering me a discount on the rear remote kit and cylinders if I purchase with the tractor, but I'm not sure which (if any) I should include. I won't be doing any mowing, but I will be building and maintaining sections of road and a long drive on 40 acres. I was thinking the float function may come in handy, but wasn't certain.

thanks,
Nick

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

You do not want a TNT to be run off a floating valve, all sorts of ugly things happen!

Your top link needs to stay set to lengths and so does the side link.

The top link sets the cut or float (not the same as the top link floating) of a box blade (opposite depending on direction of travel) and the tilt angles the blade for slope grade or a crown.

Even if you run a mower you still don't have a floating top link, the linkage on the mower does it.

 

[ngiovas]

Thanks for the explanation. Can you tell me a case where I would want the floating valve? Also, is it worth adding a third valve while they are doing the install?

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Thanks for the explanation. Can you tell me a case where I would want the floating valve? Also, is it worth adding a third valve while they are doing the install?

Some Implements like ground engaging implements need a floating valve so that the implement stays on the ground as the terrain changes.

Is it worth it, well if you ever think you might do that kind of work, getting it now is cheaper and easier than trying to add it down the line.

 

[ngiovas]

Sorry to keep adding more questions, but if I add a third valve with the floating function, I assume it will also operate in a locked position without floating? Do most people make one of their rear valves a floating valve?

I have read that some people are not completely happy with the quality of the Kubota valves. I really like the idea of having the factory integration for the controls. Should I avoid the Kubota valves from the dealer, or are they fine for the average user?

 

[Dunbar]

I have 2 rear remotes with one being a floating valve. I would not be without the float valve which I can switch from Tilt to Top if needed. I use it on tilt with my finish mower and my rotary cutter. I put it in float and the mower/cutter follow the contours rather than dig into the dirt while being rigid otherwise. I killed the engine without it.



I would search @MtnViewRanch on OTT. He explains why you want float valves for box blades too. I believe that he mentioned it is very helpful when grading an intersection ditch in tilt float. I think you can float the top link on the box blade when you want to scrape the surface without digging in on undulating surfaces.


The float valve only floats if you set it to float by pushing the control rod to the full down position. Otherwise it stays where you set it as if you had a normal non-floating valve.


Again, check with @MtnViewRanch as he is an expert and I am just a happy customer.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I have 2 rear remotes with one being a floating valve. I would not be without the float valve which I can switch from Tilt to Top if needed. I use it on tilt with my finish mower and my rotary cutter. I put it in float and the mower/cutter follow the contours rather than dig into the dirt while being rigid otherwise. I killed the engine without it.



I would search @MountainViewHome on OTT. He explains why you want float valves for box blades too. I believe that he mentioned it is very helpful when grading an intersection ditch in tilt float. I think you can float the top link on the box blade when you want to scrape the surface without digging in on undulating surfaces.


The float valve only floats if you set it to float by pushing the control rod to the full down position. Otherwise it stays where you set it as if you had a normal non-floating valve.


Again, check with @MountainViewHome as he is an expert and I am just a happy customer.

It's Mountain View Ranch, MtnViewRanch, or fitritehydraulics.com

So basically I'm wrong?
Well sort of... I don't use floating valves like he states, but he is the expert on this.

https://www.fitritehydraulics.com/float.html

His words from his site:

There are several reasons to have the float function with your rear remote valves.


For top link use:

The main reason is for mowing in rough or steep terrain. Having the top link in the float mode allows the mower to travel to more extremes for mowing over an edge and down to pond banks or up a bit on steep banks as examples.

Having the top link connected is always the safest thing to do. Some people use a chain to allow full movement of the cutter, this is not a safe condition to work in and should not really be done. A lot of 3 point mowers have a built in bracket that allows for more than normal movement, while that works well for slight angles, they typically do not allow the mower to pivot enough for steeper grades. This is where the float function really shows its benefits.



For side link use:

The float function allows for an implement to follow the terrain instead of the tractor.

Examples of this would be using a 3 point landscape rake in an open field. You want to rake up material on uneven ground. By putting the side link in float mode, this allows the rake to follow the ground and stay in contact with the ground, gathering unwanted material.

Another example is when finish grading-smoothing at road intersections. As you go around a corner at an intersection, the camber of the road often changes, kick the side link into float mode and the implement will follow the grade instead of the tractor.

These are a few examples of why you want to have the float function with your rear remote valves, not a huge thing, but very nice to have when the situation presents itself.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

Sorry to keep adding more questions, but if I add a third valve with the floating function, I assume it will also operate in a locked position without floating? Do most people make one of their rear valves a floating valve?

I have read that some people are not completely happy with the quality of the Kubota valves. I really like the idea of having the factory integration for the controls. Should I avoid the Kubota valves from the dealer, or are they fine for the average user?

I think the stock Kubota valves are fine, they are setup to work like you said Factory integrated, so they are much cleaner than aftermarket valves!

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Sorry to keep adding more questions, but if I add a third valve with the floating function, I assume it will also operate in a locked position without floating? Do most people make one of their rear valves a floating valve?

I have read that some people are not completely happy with the quality of the Kubota valves. I really like the idea of having the factory integration for the controls. Should I avoid the Kubota valves from the dealer, or are they fine for the average user?

Need to be realistic about the Kubota rear remote valves. I believe that the majority of the valves are fine and is the reason that Kubota does nothing for the people that have the issues.

BUT and this is a VERY BIG BUT, if you do have issues with the valves, Kubota will not help you out. The std corporate answer is "We are sorry, but that's just how they are."

I have had several customers have the issues. Even had Kubota corporate call me to confirm the best way to test for the problem. This internal valve leakage was with brand new tractors. Off the top of my head an MX5200, L4060, L5460 & and 2 L6060s.

The guy with the L4060 has a great dealer and has changed them several times at the dealer's expense. I believe that one of the 3 valves has been an improvement after 4 valve changes, but still not what it should be.

He will not be without the float feature for his top link, but looking like we will be putting a DPOCV (check valve) on the side link. One of the guys with an L6060 now has the check valves on both of his T&T cylinders, so no float feature use for him.

I have provided a picture of the top & tilt units that I would provide for an L3560. 2 1/2" dia cylinders with 1 1/2" dia rods. Just something for comparison.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[psdstu]

Need to be realistic about the Kubota rear remote valves. I believe that the majority of the valves are fine and is the reason that Kubota does nothing for the people that have the issues.

BUT and this is a VERY BIG BUT, if you do have issues with the valves, Kubota will not help you out. The std corporate answer is "We are sorry, but that's just how they are."

I have had several customers have the issues. Even had Kubota corporate call me to confirm the best way to test for the problem. This internal valve leakage was with brand new tractors. Off the top of my head an MX5200, L4060, L5460 & and 2 L6060s.

The guy with the L4060 has a great dealer and has changed them several times at the dealer's expense. I believe that one of the 3 valves has been an improvement after 4 valve changes, but still not what it should be.

He will not be without the float feature for his top link, but looking like we will be putting a DPOCV (check valve) on the side link. One of the guys with an L6060 now has the check valves on both of his T&T cylinders, so no float feature use for him.

I have provided a picture of the top & tilt units that I would provide for an L3560. 2 1/2" dia cylinders with 1 1/2" dia rods. Just something for comparison.

Good luck with your decision.

As Brian states here some customers including me have had problems with Kubota's TNT valves leaking. I have ordered a Hyd Side Link valve from Brian with the DPOCV for my L4060 to solve my side link problem. Good luck to you with your TNT.

 

[Dunbar]

Thanks NIW for fixing my bad @reference. I have 2 Kubota rear valves and notice that there must be a slight fluid leak as I see oil soaked dust on the valve assembly. I plan on cleaning it up and looking for a leak and perhaps tightening the assembly. I wonder if torque settings are in the Work Manual? With my finish mower I float the Tilt because I have the optional Floating Top Link kit on my Quick Hitch. It allows the mower to follow terrain in the direction of travel where the Tilt float allows side to side movement. I have never dug into the dirt with this setup.

 

[ngiovas]

I am now leaning towards getting 3 rear remotes from the factory (or I guess from the dealer at the time of purchase). Is it worth getting all 3 as floating valves "just in case", or am I better off getting 2 floating (for the Top n Tilt) and one standard?

 

[ngiovas]

OK, I'm continuing to learn more as I dig through the forums, but at the same time, this is generating more questions for me.

I sent a note to Brian directly on his site, but I thought I would post it here to see if anyone else can help / has an opinion.

It sounds like with the Grand L series, I can only get float valves or double-acting valves (no option for a self-canceling valve). I am starting to think that the best combination of valves for me is 2 float valves and one self canceling or detent valve (can you have one valve that does both?). Is it possible to order the Top n Tilt kit from Kubota that includes the factory remote levers, but get the valves from Brian instead of having to swap them out later? I really like the idea of having the factory remote levers for the rear valves, but would prefer to get the better valves from the start.

Also, are all of the features such as self-canceling, detent, etc. only dependent on the valve you choose or do you need to also change out the remote lever to have the detent features?

Sorry again for all of the questions, but I want to make sure I get it right without wasting money.

Nick

 

[MtnViewRanch]

OK, I'm continuing to learn more as I dig through the forums, but at the same time, this is generating more questions for me.

I sent a note to Brian directly on his site, but I thought I would post it here to see if anyone else can help / has an opinion.

It sounds like with the Grand L series, I can only get float valves or double-acting valves (no option for a self-canceling valve). I am starting to think that the best combination of valves for me is 2 float valves and one self canceling or detent valve (can you have one valve that does both?). Is it possible to order the Top n Tilt kit from Kubota that includes the factory remote levers, but get the valves from Brian instead of having to swap them out later? I really like the idea of having the factory remote levers for the rear valves, but would prefer to get the better valves from the start.

Also, are all of the features such as self-canceling, detent, etc. only dependent on the valve you choose or do you need to also change out the remote lever to have the detent features?

Sorry again for all of the questions, but I want to make sure I get it right without wasting money.

Nick

Nick, I seriously doubt that you will find ANY 3rd party valves that will bolt up to the case as the Kubota valves do. If you do not go with the factory Kubota valves, you will end up with exposed valves some place unless YOU are a machinist and have nothing else to do but design-build a set for your tractor.

It's simply very time consuming for anyone to provide what you are asking for at any where close to what would be considered a reasonable cost.
Not saying that it can't be done, but if you are going to pay for it to be done, I hope your pockets are deep and very full.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[ngiovas]

Nick, I seriously doubt that you will find ANY 3rd party valves that will bolt up to the case as the Kubota valves do. If you do not go with the factory Kubota valves, you will end up with exposed valves some place unless YOU are a machinist and have nothing else to do but design-build a set for your tractor.

It's simply very time consuming for anyone to provide what you are asking for at any where close to what would be considered a reasonable cost.
Not saying that it can't be done, but if you are going to pay for it to be done, I hope your pockets are deep and very full.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for the honest answer. I think I am better off Going with the factory kit. The dealer is giving me a slight discount for buying it with the tractor which takes a bit of the sting out it. Hopefully they work as advertised.

Do you know if the Kubota double acting valves have a detent for self canceling or holding them open, or do they automatically return to center?

 

[Tarmy]

I had the factory valves installed and they leak constantly. I have another set that I need to swap in...we shall see if they leak too.

OP...make sure you look at the valves...make sure they are not leaking where they mount or between them where they bolt together. Run the tractor at the dealer...look them over good.

 

[North Idaho Wolfman]

I had the factory valves installed and they leak constantly. I have another set that I need to swap in...we shall see if they leak too.

OP...make sure you look at the valves...make sure they are not leaking where they mount or between them where they bolt together. Run the tractor at the dealer...look them over good.

On what model tractor, your L2800?

 

[Dunbar]

Yes get them with the tractor installed. Apparently the 1st valve is a normal non-floating and you can only get float-detent on the 2nd and 3rd valve. They are expensive but worth it. I would like to have 2 float-detents but opted for just one. So I have one normal and one float-detent. If I want to swap my float from Tilt to Top I switch the hoses. For me with a L2501 I could not think of the need for a 3rd rear remote. You have to get into more sophisticated attachments to make use of one. A landscape rake with hydraulic angling or box blade with hydraulic scarifiers. With bigger tractors that can handle complicated attachments I can see the need. I am sure to kick myself at some point for not dropping another grand for the 3rd rear remote but have not yet. Kubota's website does not make it easy to figure out the rear remote nuances. It took me a bunch of research on OTT and emails to Brian to figure out what I need. He tries to be low key about flogging his hydraulics, not only to not seem pushy but because he is swamped with customers in line waiting for his time to build their set. Call him or email him and he will explain it to you. I found it well worth the wait to get his product, serious quality. He will not take on employees because they will not produce at his level of precision.

 

[Dunbar]

I recommend watching the video posted by the OP of this thread


It shows how he installed the same rear remote setup that I have, one normal and one float detent valve. Even if you have the dealer install it this is very informative and shows you how it works. Notice that he mounted his remote plate on the ROPS in a different location than mine. His looks like the manual but mine is much lower, there is a pic of my setup a few posts down in that thread. The Quick Hitch comes close to interfering with my valves but does not hit on full articulation. Until is see a problem I am leaving it where it is, which appears to be more out of the way. The dealer put it there and must have some experience.



I flubbed @MtnViewRanch in that thread too. Sorry Brian!

 

[Tarmy]

On what model tractor, your L2800?

Yeah. I had the valve set for TNT plumbing in-line thru the backhoe...so I could operate my hydraulic thumb. A little leak down...not really an issue.

When I took it in to get the BH rams rebuilt...the dealer suggested getting rid of my set up and adding the factory valves plumbed off the side of the transmission...and the problems started then. That valve has leaked since I added it. The dealer got me another valve (no cost to me) to swap in...have not done that yet but it has been a hassle, messy and seems as though the valve body is not flat...as I have tried everything on that valve plate to stop the leaks.

If you have any ideas to try...I am very open to suggestions...