BigG
Well-known member
Equipment
l2501, FEL, BB, Rotary cutter, rake,spreader, roller, etc. New Holland TL80 A
That can not be the correct price. $22 for an u-bolt? Even if it is Canada dollars.
Drilling holes in ROPS a bad idea - safety / warranty
- Thread starter Timmer92
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B3350orbust
Member
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B3350, 72” Bush Hog, 72” box blade, 72” grader blade, 48” King Kutter tiller,
With all do respect I can disprove everything you are saying, or I should say he is saying. And I would love to read what he said, also every hole in aero frames car chassis everything that is required to be strong has been engendered that way. It is not a helter skelter random bunch of holes. Also were you to modify a ROPS, if one did not have a PE certify it and you or someone is hurt or killed where the ROPS has failed where you worked on it,,
your arse be toast homes !
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I***8217;ll try to find it. I have no idea what you mean by toast. If I was killed by rolling over my own tractor due a ROPS failure from modifications that I made, who***8217;s coming after me? The safety police?
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The holes that you reference above, were all put in by the manufacturer of the product, not someone else. When it comes to a Baja vehicle, those are usually custom built by the user, and they are ultimately responsible to themselves for whatever happens to them and their vehicles. I have no knowledge of "slide cuts on competition firearms frames", but I would be comfortable in saying that those modifications were done by a licensed professional that has expertise in the field. You say "that a couple of holes in a ROPS will weaken the structure seems to be a thing made up by lawyers rather than engineers." is at best conjecture on your part. If you think about your statement, why would lawyers make up this statement, unless they could find an engineer to back up their claim? Lawyers don't push facts in a courtroom, unless they have an expert back it up. If you want to drill holes in your ROPS, go to it, but keep in mind, that you are ultimately responsible for your actions. If your ROPS fails in a roll over accident, you have no one to blame other than yourself. If you survive, you can try to find an attorney to take your case and argue that what you did didn't compromise the ROPS, but the ROPS design was defective, and that is what caused the failure, but the manufacturer will have lots of proof and documentation that it was tested, and certified to a specific standard before it was released to the public. Who knows, you might even find a sympathetic jury that will agree with your attorney, but it will be reversed upon appeal of the manufacturer.
Christ, now you guys have me really concerned. A few weeks ago I drove past a large tree, took it a little too close. A low branch left a very noticeable dent in my ROPS. On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being imminent, catastrophic failure resulting in a slow but fiery death... What is my risk factor if I sink my front tire in some soft dirt with a bucket full of cow manuer and flip my rig over? Should I replace the whole rops just to be on the safe side? I'm sure they didn't account for that dent in their load/tolerance tests.
WHO DO I SUE!?
::throws drink into the fire::
WHO DO I SUE!?
::throws drink into the fire::
Funny that you should mention the part that I highlighted in bolt print above. I did this exact thing with a Minneapolis Moline TLB about 30 years ago, and it didn't have a ROPS. I felt it going over, and I started to stand up to jump, when it threw me off and away from the tractor. Had I had a seat belt and ROPS, I would have been fine. As it was, I was able to walk away and only suffered bruises and bumps. If the tractor landed on me, I wouldn't be typing this tonight.
As for the dent in your ROPS and should you replace it, that is a personal question that only you can answer. If you asked Kubota or a dealer, they would err on the side of caution and say yes. No different that replacing seat belts after an accident, even though they still appear to be working properly. A friends wife had an accident with her car and it was declared a total loss by the insurance company. The child seats in the rear had to be replaced, even though the interior of the car suffered no damage, they were not damaged. The insurance company paid for new child seats. Today, things are different, and the rule is now not to throw caution to the wind.
Thank you. Humor is very welcome at this point of near insanity.
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North Idaho Wolfman
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L3450DT-GST, Woods FEL, B7100 HSD, FEL, 60" SB, 743 Bobcat with V2203, and more
Yes, attorney's like facts. They also hire folks to be witnesses. Those hires are already known by the one who hires them, they will agree with what they are trying to prove.
The second red highlight is directed to attorneys as well. Hire an attorney that can try to get a judgement from a company for a personal decision. That is the very logical reason all the rules, decals, and rhetoric is so prevalent. Enough companies end up in suits over such matters, and they have to protect themselves, declaring don't mess with the ROPS in any way!
Remember attorneys take cases that have an opportunity for them to earn money from a settlement. And part of the process is to find other similar cases to back up their points. The accumulation of similar cases makes the task easier as time goes on.
So if one purchases a tractor without a ROPS would one be better to leave as it is, or possibly fabricate something to their liking if nothing is available from a manufacturer?
And years later is a tractor is sold should that fabricated ROPS be removed to protect the seller?
I'm calling my ins. agent and upping my umbrella police a couple M.
Little Orange
Member
Equipment
Kubota BX25D TLB, hitch frame, FEL forks, 3pt steel ballast and back blade
Funny, was at the dealer the other day for a part and happen to look over at the new BX23S, not that I need one (don't like the stick) and notice HOLES in the ROPS!!!!!
Course guess K wants to sell more cheap lights. Go figure.
Course guess K wants to sell more cheap lights. Go figure.
I would agree with the post about Billy going mad with the drill being a reason no holes are allowed.
Except take it closer to home: you drill a couple of holes for lights and find that the location doesn't suit, drill 2 more in a more suitable position. A few years down the road the lights are beyond repair and the bolt shears when you are taking them out. Ah well, 2 more holes won't hurt.......
It is far better for the company to say "We are giving you X amount of holes. Use them but no drilling"
There is another entirely different issue with having an assortment of bolt ends and sharp plastic etc. sticking out of random locations all about your head but that is for another day
Except take it closer to home: you drill a couple of holes for lights and find that the location doesn't suit, drill 2 more in a more suitable position. A few years down the road the lights are beyond repair and the bolt shears when you are taking them out. Ah well, 2 more holes won't hurt.......
It is far better for the company to say "We are giving you X amount of holes. Use them but no drilling"
There is another entirely different issue with having an assortment of bolt ends and sharp plastic etc. sticking out of random locations all about your head but that is for another day
GreensvilleJay
Well-known member
Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
The holes in ROPS on my BX23S are dead center of the beam. As such they do not affect the overall strength or safety aspects of the beam. It's really a 'truss'. If you look at house trusses they run wires thru hole 1/2 top to btm.
As for welding your own or modifying ROPS, back in the 70s the JEEP corporation STOPPED calling the steel structure behind the seats as a 'roll bar'. That implied it was ,what we now call ROPS, and was a safety item..nope.they called it a 'light bar' as does everyone else since then. BTW, never chrome plate a roll bar or ROPS. The plating process and chemical actually weakens the steel due to hydrogen something.... been 40 years since I worked in the Stelco Met Lab, but that I remember.
If someone wnats the top,folding section of my ROPS, it'll be available soon. Dang PITB...can't drive tractor into garage or shop with it up
As for welding your own or modifying ROPS, back in the 70s the JEEP corporation STOPPED calling the steel structure behind the seats as a 'roll bar'. That implied it was ,what we now call ROPS, and was a safety item..nope.they called it a 'light bar' as does everyone else since then. BTW, never chrome plate a roll bar or ROPS. The plating process and chemical actually weakens the steel due to hydrogen something.... been 40 years since I worked in the Stelco Met Lab, but that I remember.
If someone wnats the top,folding section of my ROPS, it'll be available soon. Dang PITB...can't drive tractor into garage or shop with it up
Hydrogen embrittlement details:
https://www.imetllc.com/training-article/hydrogen-embrittlement-steel/
Generally not a problem w/ low strength steels; 1018 - the stuff you get at the steel yard is fine. Chrome plating is efinitely an issue w springs, high strength bolts and similar higher carbon alloys; one should bake those parts to drive the hydrogen (absorbed due to acid pickling) out.
- Bart
Trimmer,
This is the internet and and when asking a question always expect the keyboard commando's to instill the fear of God in you....LOL
That said, drilling a few small holes in it will not diminish it's structural integrity, or even close to it, which would cause it to fail in an emergency. Turning it into Swiss cheese on the other hand is a different story!
Anyone ever drill a half dozen holes in their cars from to add a trailer hitch?
I rest my case...
I've done it and I'll post some photos later on as proof..
GreensvilleJay
Well-known member
Equipment
BX23-S,57 A-C D-14,58 A-C D-14, 57 A-C D-14,tiller,cults,Millcreek 25G spreader,
There is a difference between drilling 'mounting' holes and 'access' holes.
Mounting holes get filled in by a bolt and providing the bolt is same or better grade of steel and a snug fit...no harm, no foul. Access holes, used to fish wire through could be a problem as material has been removed and not replaced. Typically you drill a 1/2" hole,install a plastic bushing or rubber grommet for wire protection and of course 1-2 wires.The hole,in this case is still a 'hole' as the void is not filled with similar material to the removed steel, so 'technically' you have compromised the ROPS structurally integrity. Probably an insignifigant amount but it's been 'modified' and that word is all a shyster lawyer needs to have.
The adding a trailer hitch example is like my 1st. You've replaced the removed metal, so no harm, no foul..except...you've introduced a 'lot' of area of fresh,raw steel where Ontario winter salty road water can get to and allow the steel to rust away. Yeah, it'll take a very,very long time..but...it's not original or unmodified.
As for selling a tractor with a 'modified' ROPS, I'd assume the 'used-asis' doctrine would apply. I've seen enough JudgeJudys to know when you buy a second hand car, there is NO implied warranty as to 'fitness'.
I'm currently designing/building a ROPS replacement for my BX23S. The OEM top section is too tall. the replacement will be shorter,have a sun shade as well as LEDS AND allow me to drive into my garages without causing damge.
Mounting holes get filled in by a bolt and providing the bolt is same or better grade of steel and a snug fit...no harm, no foul. Access holes, used to fish wire through could be a problem as material has been removed and not replaced. Typically you drill a 1/2" hole,install a plastic bushing or rubber grommet for wire protection and of course 1-2 wires.The hole,in this case is still a 'hole' as the void is not filled with similar material to the removed steel, so 'technically' you have compromised the ROPS structurally integrity. Probably an insignifigant amount but it's been 'modified' and that word is all a shyster lawyer needs to have.
The adding a trailer hitch example is like my 1st. You've replaced the removed metal, so no harm, no foul..except...you've introduced a 'lot' of area of fresh,raw steel where Ontario winter salty road water can get to and allow the steel to rust away. Yeah, it'll take a very,very long time..but...it's not original or unmodified.
As for selling a tractor with a 'modified' ROPS, I'd assume the 'used-asis' doctrine would apply. I've seen enough JudgeJudys to know when you buy a second hand car, there is NO implied warranty as to 'fitness'.
I'm currently designing/building a ROPS replacement for my BX23S. The OEM top section is too tall. the replacement will be shorter,have a sun shade as well as LEDS AND allow me to drive into my garages without causing damge.
I love Judge Judy and how she manhandles her participants! LOL
I've often thought of building my own as well for the exact same reason! I'm so tired of having to "remember" to rotate it low enough to avoid damaging the tractor and my garage...
I will again reply to modifying a ROPS. These units are in fact designed by an engineer using more math than I can comprehend. And after they are built , they are subjected to testing in a lab, this testing will use a static weight meaning that a weight is placed on the ROPS, testing the crushing weight of the unit. Then testing of lateral strength for the roll over crushing. Then for forward and rear for bending. Like if you go over backwards or forward roll. At this juncture it is certified by a PE, this then releases the Manufacturer from any legalities. So should it fail, and nothing has been done to modify the ROPS then the manufacturer becomes liabel. However if the unit has been compromised in any way like drilling holes, cutting and re-welding, the manufacturer is not liable for any damages incurred to you or equipment.
There are sometimes holes placed in the ROPS, when it is made and those holes are part of the approval. In some cases you will find a small hole at the base , these are called weep holes and placed there to aid in the removal of moisture, because these are not hermetically sealed, and moisture will accumulate inside the tubing.
In a past life , I have had the unfortunate duty of investigating fatalities in the work place where ROPS have failed. And the sad fact remains that the majority of these were due to modifications of the ROPS . Do as you will to your equipment, I however do not, and I would have a hard time sleeping knowing that I did something that cost someone their life by thinking I was smarter than the guys that built and tested the unit. What are the odds of that happening, I really don't know, I am not willing to take that chance.
So ends this mornings lesson.
There are sometimes holes placed in the ROPS, when it is made and those holes are part of the approval. In some cases you will find a small hole at the base , these are called weep holes and placed there to aid in the removal of moisture, because these are not hermetically sealed, and moisture will accumulate inside the tubing.
In a past life , I have had the unfortunate duty of investigating fatalities in the work place where ROPS have failed. And the sad fact remains that the majority of these were due to modifications of the ROPS . Do as you will to your equipment, I however do not, and I would have a hard time sleeping knowing that I did something that cost someone their life by thinking I was smarter than the guys that built and tested the unit. What are the odds of that happening, I really don't know, I am not willing to take that chance.
So ends this mornings lesson.
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