Diesel vs Propane Home Backup Generator

[fried1765]

Yes, you can refuse, but you can't stop them from going up the pole and cutting the wires to your home. Have fun trying to get them to put them back after the power outage is restored. The power company can come onto your property and pull the meter also, without your permission. They own the meter and have every right to remove it.

I think your conclusions are a bit of paranoia.

 

[Poohbear]

As a former utility worker, why dont you cheapskates that just turn off the main at least put in an interlock set up where the gen breaker can't feed the house until the main is thrown ?
I also have used a checklist but they for some reason dont allways stop stupid mistakes. The NTSB data base is full of accidents caused by mis reading the list.

 

[trial and error]

@Poohbear
bingo

 

[fried1765]

As a former utility worker, why dont you cheapskates that just turn off the main at least put in an interlock set up where the gen breaker can't feed the house until the main is thrown ?
I also have used a checklist but they for some reason dont allways stop stupid mistakes. The NTSB data base is full of accidents caused by mis reading the list.

I guess I should have been dead long ago.
Nearly everything with airplane operation requires the use of checklists!
There are few truly automatic interlocks.

I just wish that you folks who claim checklists are unreliable, had told me so, BEFORE I accumulated 30,000 hours of pilot time.
It is certainly possible, that at least one of you may have been aboard an airplane that I was flying.
If so, you should be particularly appreciative of my devoted adherence to checklists.


"the NTSB data base is full of accidents caused by misreading the list"
That is a GROSS exaggeration, when applied to airline operations.!

 

[lugbolt]

yeah i use checklists at work (different industry). They work. If used properly.

I don't like AC electricity. Had several friends die because of accidents, all preventable of course. Alwyas thought that poco's should come down harder on folks who like to go against code. It can work the other way too, I've had an issue with the poco once as well and they decided that I should do without electricity for a week in July (in Arkansas) but not because of a code violation, rather their own spite. That happens too, so don't piss off your poco workers...

 

[lynnmor]

As a former utility worker, why dont you cheapskates that just turn off the main at least put in an interlock set up where the gen breaker can't feed the house until the main is thrown ?
I also have used a checklist but they for some reason dont allways stop stupid mistakes. The NTSB data base is full of accidents caused by mis reading the list.

My generator is in the barn some distance away, perhaps you have a cheap method of doing an interlock in this case.

 

[trial and error]

My generator is in the barn some distance away, perhaps you have a cheap method of doing an interlock in this case.

Interlock goes on the main electrical panel or is a seperate 6/10 circuit manual transfer switch. There are other options but those are the most cost effective and easiest to instal

 

[skeets]

poohbear just told you ,, LOCK THE MAIN OUT,, so you dont back feed in to the power lines ,and kill someone, and yes it has happend and sadly will happen again ! My ex brother in law got nailed, because someone did not LOCK OUT THE MAIN BREAKER !!!! The law suit went to trial, the out come was not pretty for the home owner.

 

[lynnmor]

poohbear just told you ,, LOCK THE MAIN OUT,, so you dont back feed in to the power lines ,and kill someone, and yes it has happend and sadly will happen again ! My ex brother in law got nailed, because someone did not LOCK OUT THE MAIN BREAKER !!!! The law suit went to trial, the out come was not pretty for the home owner.

You talking to me? How do you lockout the main breaker in the house and switch to the generator a great distance away and do it for a cheap price? Seems like there would be a considerable cost to run heavy wire under the drive and hundreds of feet to the panel in the house. I'm not arguing the reasons for the safety system, I am asking for an answer besides installing an outdoor generator at the house.

 

[trial and error]

You talking to me? How do you lockout the main breaker in the house and switch to the generator a great distance away and do it for a cheap price? Seems like there would be a considerable cost to run heavy wire under the drive and hundreds of feet to the panel in the house. I'm not arguing the reasons for the safety system, I am asking for an answer besides installing an outdoor generator at the house.

There isn't a "cheap option" for that you would need to run the appropriate gauge wire the distance required, and would also need the lockout on your panel or a multi circuit transfer switch at or near the panel

 

[Poohbear]

Example for the cheapskates : www.interlockkit.com
Amazon has several others that even start at around $29 bucks .

 

[chim]

Example for the cheapskates : www.interlockkit.com
Amazon has several others that even start at around $29 bucks .

That sure looks a lot cheaper and easier than the setup I used:

Transfer Switch for Generator Power in Outages

We have a bathroom(s) project coming this fall. As such, lot of electrical work. While that e-work gets done, would like to add a transfer switch/plug for a new generator. Limited to the 50A output. Not set on any switch, but thinking about something like this. Would turn on/off circuits...

www.orangetractortalks.com

 

[lugbolt]

I think your conclusions are a bit of paranoia.

they might be but that's exactly what they did to me, out of spite. Those guys at the poco have all kinds of avenues that they can take, and they often do.

In my case, I hired an electrician to run wire to the new shop. Poco came out and disconnected the lines, said call when you get done and we'll hook it back up. Ok cool. 4 hours later he shows up after the work was done. He and the electrician didn't get along, electrician said some things to poco worker, and poco worker said nothing...turned and walked off after re-stabbing my meter. But he didn't hook the lines back up to the transformer, just drove off. I called them, and they said I need a permit. Well permit office is closed (Friday afternoon) and Monday was a Holiday, so they were closed on Monday and tuesday. I didn't need no permit. Poco worker pulled those strings. Don't put it past them, they'll do it. I called permit office on Wednesday and they were confused, saying "you don't need a permit"....as I said but it didn't matter. I called some other people at the power company and they got a little upset as to why I'm in the dark in July when it's 107 degrees outside and about 95 inside. I told them that they were responsible if the cat dies, and they'll also be responsible if I live through the heat. Stuff got done the next day and they called me to apologize.

 

[fried1765]

they might be but that's exactly what they did to me, out of spite. Those guys at the poco have all kinds of avenues that they can take, and they often do.

In my case, I hired an electrician to run wire to the new shop. Poco came out and disconnected the lines, said call when you get done and we'll hook it back up. Ok cool. 4 hours later he shows up after the work was done. He and the electrician didn't get along, electrician said some things to poco worker, and poco worker said nothing...turned and walked off after re-stabbing my meter. But he didn't hook the lines back up to the transformer, just drove off. I called them, and they said I need a permit. Well permit office is closed (Friday afternoon) and Monday was a Holiday, so they were closed on Monday and tuesday. I didn't need no permit. Poco worker pulled those strings. Don't put it past them, they'll do it. I called permit office on Wednesday and they were confused, saying "you don't need a permit"....as I said but it didn't matter. I called some other people at the power company and they got a little upset as to why I'm in the dark in July when it's 107 degrees outside and about 95 inside. I told them that they were responsible if the cat dies, and they'll also be responsible if I live through the heat. Stuff got done the next day and they called me to apologize.

Your state public utilities commission really needed to hear that story!

 

[GreensvilleJay]

I rather doubt an open circuit breaker can actually 'backfeed'. IF it could ,then it'd also be able to 'forwardfeed' and kill any electrician working in the panel,wiring in new circuits.

 

[RBsingl]

Looking to purchase a generator capable of powering the whole house --- sooo --- looking for the pros & cons on diesel vs natural gas. If all goes as planned it would be a complete package --- automatic transfer switch/in an outside enclosure away from the house itself. Any & all info,advice,opinions are appreciated.

Getting back to the poster who restarted this older thread: If I had a natural gas line, I would have gone with natural gas but since I am in a rural areas served only by propane I went with diesel. I have a large house with two central heating systems and the propane supplier felt that the existing 500 gallon tank would need to be upgraded to 1,000 gallons OR a separate tank could be added for the generator. The concern was that in very cold weather there may not be enough tank surface area to support sufficient vaporization for the heaters, water heaters, and generator.

Because of this, I went with diesel. My generator is installed in the semi-basement section of the barn and I treat the diesel with anti-gel but it probably isn't necessary given the lowest ambient temperature it sees. A 30 KW would have been sufficient but I went with a 40 KW unit because I preferred the direct injection/turbocharged engine used for the 40 KW system.

For safety and convenience, I went with a commercial grade ASCO auto transfer switch. It is more versatile than the typical consumer grade units and allows programming of delay to start time after failure along with time to transfer after start and time to transfer to main after main power return is sensed. I have mine set to allow a 4 minute warmup after the switch senses proper voltage/frequency before transferring the load. This allows the engine to warm up a bit and also allows the compressors in the refrigerators, deep freeze, and humidifiers to equalize before restart. It waits until the main power has been up for 2 minutes before transferring back and starting its 5 minute cool down cycle. It does a seamless synchronized transfer back to main power after power failures and during monthly test runs.

It was a bit pricier than the basic auto transfer switches but worth it to me for the quality and capability as a one time purchase.

Rodger

 

[fried1765]

Getting back to the poster who restarted this older thread: If I had a natural gas line, I would have gone with natural gas but since I am in a rural areas served only by propane I went with diesel. I have a large house with two central heating systems and the propane supplier felt that the existing 500 gallon tank would need to be upgraded to 1,000 gallons OR a separate tank could be added for the generator. The concern was that in very cold weather there may not be enough tank surface area to support sufficient vaporization for the heaters, water heaters, and generator.

Because of this, I went with diesel. My generator is installed in the semi-basement section of the barn and I treat the diesel with anti-gel but it probably isn't necessary given the lowest ambient temperature it sees. A 30 KW would have been sufficient but I went with a 40 KW unit because I preferred the direct injection/turbocharged engine used for the 40 KW system.

For safety and convenience, I went with a commercial grade ASCO auto transfer switch. It is more versatile than the typical consumer grade units and allows programming of delay to start time after failure along with time to transfer after start and time to transfer to main after main power return is sensed. I have mine set to allow a 4 minute warmup after the switch senses proper voltage/frequency before transferring the load. This allows the engine to warm up a bit and also allows the compressors in the refrigerators, deep freeze, and humidifiers to equalize before restart. It waits until the main power has been up for 2 minutes before transferring back and starting its 5 minute cool down cycle. It does a seamless synchronized transfer back to main power after power failures and during monthly test runs.

It was a bit pricier than the basic auto transfer switches but worth it to me for the quality and capability as a one time purchase.

Rodger

View attachment 114564

View attachment 114565

A true "Mercedes" of standby power units!

 

[RBsingl]

Thanks fried1765!

My goal in retirement is to equip the house with high quality, low maintenance products wherever possible. That was a major reason for the new Kubota F2690 to cut mowing time and take some of the workload off my 1995 Deere 955 compact.

But now I am just semi-retired... I agreed to do a one time coverage of a single section of our senior capstone marketing strategy course last spring and that turned into a request to do the same for this fall. For next year, the university asked me to cover two sections of that course each semester plus an MBA class in the fall so I am almost full time again but without the service and research components. However since I am teaching, I also feel the need to stay academically current and I am presenting a risk management piece at a conference next month which will later turn into a journal article. That will be my first conference presentation after 7 years of retirement but it works out well because my college sophomore daughter is flying out from Oregon to present her research at the same conference so we will have a nice reunion in Virginia

But providing this course is easy and enjoyable "work" and the compensation is excellent so I will keep doing the classes as long as they are fun. I also enjoy helping these graduating seniors prepare for the "real" world of business because they have been burdened with far too many crutches on the path to their degree. I was well prepared financially and mentally for retirement but with plenty of time it would be foolish to turn down this fun opportunity.

Rodger

 

[fried1765]

Thanks fried1765!

My goal in retirement is to equip the house with high quality, low maintenance products wherever possible. That was a major reason for the new Kubota F2690 to cut mowing time and take some of the workload off my 1995 Deere 955 compact.

But now I am just semi-retired... I agreed to do a one time coverage of a single section of our senior capstone marketing strategy course last spring and that turned into a request to do the same for this fall. For next year, the university asked me to cover two sections of that course each semester plus an MBA class in the fall so I am almost full time again but without the service and research components. However since I am teaching, I also feel the need to stay academically current and I am presenting a risk management piece at a conference next month which will later turn into a journal article. That will be my first conference presentation after 7 years of retirement but it works out well because my college sophomore daughter is flying out from Oregon to present her research at the same conference so we will have a nice reunion in Virginia

But providing this course is easy and enjoyable "work" and the compensation is excellent so I will keep doing the classes as long as they are fun. I also enjoy helping these graduating seniors prepare for the "real" world of business because they have been burdened with far too many crutches on the path to their degree. I was well prepared financially and mentally for retirement but with plenty of time it would be foolish to turn down this fun opportunity.

Rodger

You have an absolutely wonderful life situation!

 

[skeets]

You talking to me? How do you lockout the main breaker in the house and switch to the generator a great distance away and do it for a cheap price? Seems like there would be a considerable cost to run heavy wire under the drive and hundreds of feet to the panel in the house. I'm not arguing the reasons for the safety system, I am asking for an answer besides installing an outdoor generator at the house.

Sorry Lynn I wasnt yelling at you, sometimes I just yell,, a product of being old.. Now, running a gen set to the house, you need to figure the distance = line loss, so you can figure out how large the wire should be, the longer the run the larger the wire.
And when you run the line, you run it in to 2 separate breakers assuming you ran 240 VAC to the house.

This is called back feeding annnnnnnd is frowned upon, with out an inter lock. However when the main breaker is thrown into the OFF or OPEN position , the gen will not back feed in to the main power grid. Many, many people do it this way, now is it legal,,, ahh not so much, does it work yes it does.
Anyone that does it this way would be in violation of the NEC, and open to legal actions should any thing transpire,,,,,, and like they say it is only illegal if you get caught